John Paul Ii Posthumously Baptized In Lds Temples.

[KevinG]

I dont mind being called a Troll I am a born again Penetcost full of the Holy Ghost and go staright to the man when in prayer, Jesus Christ is my advocate Yes I spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came, I was baptised in Jesus name and looking for the Rapture everyday.

Ahhh yes the I insult cults for Jesus school of evangelism. How quaint.

Do you have any clue why you might not be getting a serious response?

I didn't think so.

[KevinG]

I look at providing the proxy work as a gift and honoring the person it is done for. I've had plenty of people want to pray for me in a manner I'm not familiar with and I took it as a compliment and an honor. ALthough unless he had direct ancestry in the LDS Church I'm not sure it was our business to do that work. Someone was rather presumptuous in doing so.

Regarding the Pope... I doubt his earnest following of the Catholic Religion disqualifies him as Celestial material. In fact if he lived according to the code he knew hes in fine shape.

[latterdayteancum]

Me: You may very well be correct on this; yet, given John Paul IIâ??s incredible depth of knowledge, coupled with the decision to reject LDS baptisms as valid during his pontificate, I personally lean in the opposite direction.

Here is an idea: Stop playing Jesus.

I find your remarks on the worthiness of John Paul II both judgemental and arrogant.

The measuring of John Paul II's knowledge to determine if he rejected the gospel or not is futile. Only the Lord knows, and His judgements aren't based on limited speculation and probability.

David, I think salvation is available to more people than you recognize. Are you the one that leads critics to believe that Mormons teach only Mormons are going to heaven?

[KevinG]

He has a vast knowledge of Christian history and doctrines. That does not translate to a sure knowledge of the Gospel as far as the Saints understand it. I'm not one to subscribe to the mythos that the Vatican library holds evidence of the restoration, or that Popes have admitted to knowing the LDS Church is true on their deathbed.

John Paul II was certainly a man of God, and from all appearances lived according to the law he had received. The law he received was as close to Celestial as most I've seen on earth. I have no doubt if we are correct as a religion (and of course I think we are- but I'm not the self loathing type) then he will be in a fine position to accept his work.

[latterdayteancum]

Then this seems to be more of a â??make workâ? belief than a necessity for Godâ??s will. Given the earths history and the billions of people that the Lds church will never be able to identify for this ceremony, its probably safe to say that those baptized via proxy by the Lds Church will be a fraction of all those who have ever lived. Donâ??t you think God knew this in the first place and would take care of them anyway? Proxy baptism or not? Really, just curious.

Congratulations! You have just shown your complete ignorance concerning the LDS doctrine of salvation for the dead, and won a trip to the beautiful island of no credibility.

I would suggest reading up on the teachings of Mormonism concerning the Millenium and what we believe will take place in regards to temple work during those 1,000 years.

The biggest differece I see between the LDS view of temple work, and yours: We are not foolish enough to put limits on God as you have just done.

[Pax Romana]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought LDS members were only supposed to perform these ordinances on their own ancestors? Or was that just in the case of the Holocaust victims?

not to derail this thread, but I'm having a hard time seeing why, in light of this, Mormons (at least the admittedly few I've met) have a problem with the Catholic tradition of infant baptism, especially when we only do this to *our* children.

it should be noted, however, that *I* don't have any problem with posthumous baptism, either you're right and it's a big help, or you're not and it does nothing, and you've wasted your own time. I choose not to be offended by it, as it doesn't really affect me right now.

-Pax

[latterdayteancum]

not to derail this thread, but I'm having a hard time seeing why, in light of this, Mormons (at least the admittedly few I've met) have a problem with the Catholic tradition of infant baptism, especially when we only do this to *our* children.

it should be noted, however, that *I* don't have any problem with posthumous baptism, either you're right and it's a big help, or you're not and it does nothing, and you've wasted your own time. I choose not to be offended by it, as it doesn't really affect me right now.

-Pax

I have no "problem" with the Catholic tradition of infant baptism. I don't agree with the practice. But I understand the intention behind it. Catholics feel that infant baptism is a correct practice, and therefore do it for the salvation of their children. I'm not going to heckle you for that.

[KevinG]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought LDS members were only supposed to perform these ordinances on their own ancestors? Or was that just in the case of the Holocaust victims?

not to derail this thread, but I'm having a hard time seeing why, in light of this, Mormons (at least the admittedly few I've met) have a problem with the Catholic tradition of infant baptism, especially when we only do this to *our* children.

it should be noted, however, that *I* don't have any problem with posthumous baptism, either you're right and it's a big help, or you're not and it does nothing, and you've wasted your own time. I choose not to be offended by it, as it doesn't really affect me right now.

-Pax

You are correct we are supposed to do this for our own ancestors or get permission from the descendants of those we wish to do work for. Someone got over eager and jumped the gun. Given the high probability of misunderstanding and offense I wish our members would be more sensitive, even if their intentions were good. The Church as a body simply does not have the resources to vet all names by those who use bad judgement in submitting them due to the volume of work that is done. I'm sure they try to keep up with them, in particular awkward situations like some Holocaust victims. However that's not even cut and dry as we do have descendants of some Holocaust victims who do want to provide that work and it is their right to do so.

All messyness aside...

I'm glad you are not offended by our practice. I asked my Great Aunt for permission to baptize a deceased Great Uncle who I was not descended from but whom I loved. Once I explained why we do this, and that the choice to accept this ordinance is all his, she was happy to let me do so.

I don't choose to argue against infant baptism by Catholics. Its not my belief, but it is not something that I would criticize. It is an act of faith on the part of loving and caring parents. Why should anyone take offense. As it is with our ordinaces if they are correct a great service has been done, if they are incorrect it mattereth not and in the process faith has been exercised in the Savior. Not a bad deal all the way around. (I know I'm starting to sound Universalist...)

[why me]

A friend of mine was recently ex'ed. If he dies before being baptized again, is he bound for Hell in a handbasket.

It really peeves me when people are so willing to judge others and place them firmly in Hell and they do it with such eagarness. What is wrong with that picture? I guess I didn't get the email that Jesus sent out about having somebody else place their butt in the judgment seat. Could somebody please forward that email to me. Maybe my server wasn't working that day.

I agree with you on this one. Some lds can be very judgemental about it all. I think that some need to be less judgemental and more understanding of life choices and what impacts them. This would certainly create a more loving community of church going people.

[BCSpace]

He is baptised (as all ultimately will be) in case he accepts the gospel in the afterlife. Your "second chance" comment is indicative of a certain ignorance of our doctrine. To accept the gospel in the afterlife is NOT a second chance. If you had never heard it before (which could possibly include the testimony of the Holy Ghost after seeking the truth) , then you could be eligible for the CK. If you already had that opportunity in mortality, you will not be eligible for the CK but may be eligible for a lesser degree of glory.

We do not define, nor do we have any doctrine on what the one chance you could get in mortality consists of, though we do indeed like to speculate as anybody would.

WHAT? Are you making this up as you go,

No.

this is not Biblical at all

There aspects of it that are quite Biblical and it certainly does not contradict the Bible. The Bible in no place claims to be the only and complete word of God.

[lost sheep]

I dont mind being called a Troll I am a born again Penetcost full of the Holy Ghost and go staright to the man when in prayer, Jesus Christ is my advocate Yes I spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came, I was baptised in Jesus name and looking for the Rapture everyday.

Ahhh yes the I insult cults for Jesus school of evangelism. How quaint.

Do you have any clue why you might not be getting a serious response?

I didn't think so.

Yes I do have a clue, its because against the Bible, the false prohets have no weapon. I never expected to get a response. The LDS is far far from anything to do with Jesus, you already removed him with yopur little priest, can you honestly beleive one of your members said the priest gave you the Holy ghost? You cant find half this garbage in the bible that your teaching so you make up your own book, The Book of Mormons.

[lost sheep]

WHAT? Are you making this up as you go, this is not Biblical at all

A very Christ-like attitude you're displaying and you say you started your own church. Interesting. First you say you don't understand what we believe and then, without any serious attempt to understand what we believe, you ridicule us. Like I said, very Christ-like of you. I'm sure Christ is bursting with pride for what you are doing for him.

The church deal is a joke dude, a joke only. Get over it already . I think Christ said know them that labor among you didnt he. With my above statement that you quoted, there is nothing shameful about it, I was told of a false doctrine and I was warned of false doctrines. Why would you be amazed if I called a spade a spade? Ridicule is not the word for it, I looked at what you teach and its not Biblical, further if I deny Jesus here before you, he will deny me before the Father and by me sitting down and not speaking up when I see you take Jesus out and make him a liar, married and all this other garbage,

[urroner]

I dont mind being called a Troll I am a born again Penetcost full of the Holy Ghost and go staright to the man when in prayer, Jesus Christ is my advocate Yes I spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came, I was baptised in Jesus name and looking for the Rapture everyday.

Ahhh yes the I insult cults for Jesus school of evangelism. How quaint.

Do you have any clue why you might not be getting a serious response?

I didn't think so.

Yes I do have a clue, its because against the Bible, the false prohets have no weapon. I never expected to get a response. The LDS is far far from anything to do with Jesus, you already removed him with yopur little priest, can you honestly beleive one of your members said the priest gave you the Holy ghost? You cant find half this garbage in the bible that your teaching so you make up your own book, The Book of Mormons.

[lost sheep]

I dont mind being called a Troll I am a born again Penetcost full of the Holy Ghost and go staright to the man when in prayer, Jesus Christ is my advocate Yes I spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came, I was baptised in Jesus name and looking for the Rapture everyday.

Ahhh yes the I insult cults for Jesus school of evangelism. How quaint.

Do you have any clue why you might not be getting a serious response?

I didn't think so.

Yes I do have a clue, its because against the Bible, the false prohets have no weapon. I never expected to get a response. The LDS is far far from anything to do with Jesus, you already removed him with yopur little priest, can you honestly beleive one of your members said the priest gave you the Holy ghost? You cant find half this garbage in the bible that your teaching so you make up your own book, The Book of Mormons.

Have no intentions of fooling anyone either You see, this is the same type info those dudes riding bikes give, they want you to listen to them, but when you dont buy the garbage, this is the same response. Must be some of the brainwash training yall are teaching.

[urroner]

Have no intentions of fooling anyone either You see, this is the same type info those dudes riding bikes give, they want you to listen to them, but when you dont buy the garbage, this is the same response. Must be some of the brainwash training yall are teaching.

So you willingly admit that you are not here to discuss what we believe, rather you are here to denigrate Mormon belief and preach and lecture us.

[lost sheep]

Have no intentions of fooling anyone either You see, this is the same type info those dudes riding bikes give, they want you to listen to them, but when you dont buy the garbage, this is the same response. Must be some of the brainwash training yall are teaching.

So you willingly admit that you are not here to discuss what we believe, rather you are here to denigrate Mormon belief and preach and lecture us.

Where did I say that? I admit there are some things I wnt to understand that you teach, but if I dont believe in it, you should not take offense and tuck your head between your legs and cry about it. You see me whining cause you dont believe as I do?

[Pantsman]

I can appreciate the gesture I guess, some may find it very offensive to claim the head of our Church needs you guys to keep him from hell, but I think it's harmless. Although I think Pope John Paul II will be just fine without baptism into the LDS Church after death, but again it's a nice gesture, not very ecumenical, but I guess a nice gesture.

[Pantsman]

A typical funeral I agree with, but being baptised after your dead sounds silly and is in no way Biblical. So yes I would laugh at someone baptising a dead person. John Paul was a good man, but in no way needs to be set up as a high priest to to be equal or take the same position as Jesus. Those folks need to confess their sins to Jesus, not the priest, they didnt sin against the priest did they, Jesus was the one who died on the cross.

I'm thinking you may not know your Bible as well as you think you do...

evidence one: Your claim of no baptism for the dead in the bible

evidence two: Your claim of no role of the priest in repentance

HiJolly

Show me in the Bible in the KJV where you talk to a priest or anyone when asking for forgiveness of your sins other than Jesus Christ. Dont say God either, we know they are all one in Spirit so dont go down a cow trail . Show me in the Bible where you baptise a dead man. You repent of your sins first, get baptised, then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost from God, no priest is gonna lay hands on you and give iut to you, its not theirs to give away. After your dead friend, your judged, aint no going back for anything.

Here you go:

John 20:21-23

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. (note this is only the second time God EVER breathed on humans, once to give them life, the second time to give the Apostles power to remit or retain sins, that's how important the sacrament is)

James 5:16

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (I don't know if it gets any plainer than that).

And while you're at it you may want to open up the Old Tetament and read on the Levitical priesthood offering sacrifice for ones sin. God doesn't change, we can't just divorce ourselves from the Old Testament.

[Pantsman]

So, what becomes of non-Catholics who die without

Catholic baptism?

Bernard

There is no "Catholic baptism" per se, as long as one is baptized via the Trinitarian formula, with the belief that God is one, then the baptism is valid. No one unbaptized may enter Heaven, they are cut off, similar to the uncircumsized in Moses day. Now it's clear that Joshua had to re-circumsize the Jews and the practice stopped at some point, so how hard and fast it is I don't know. IF one that is unbaptized does enter Heaven it is only through the grace of God and His son Jesus Christ and His body the Church, the pillar of Truth. They are commited to the mercy of God. We can only say what has been revealed, but the CC isn't going to put God in a box either.

The Catholic Church doesn't accept LDS baptism because of the rejection of the Trinity, that's the main point of the baptism, without the Trinitarian belief it invalidates the baptsim. I beilieve the LDS believe much the sme thing, but reversed. The LDS accept no other baptism as valid.

[Son]

A typical funeral I agree with, but being baptised after your dead sounds silly and is in no way Biblical. So yes I would laugh at someone baptising a dead person. John Paul was a good man, but in no way needs to be set up as a high priest to to be equal or take the same position as Jesus. Those folks need to confess their sins to Jesus, not the priest, they didnt sin against the priest did they, Jesus was the one who died on the cross.

I'm thinking you may not know your Bible as well as you think you do...

evidence one: Your claim of no baptism for the dead in the bible

evidence two: Your claim of no role of the priest in repentance

HiJolly

Show me in the Bible in the KJV where you talk to a priest or anyone when asking for forgiveness of your sins other than Jesus Christ. Dont say God either, we know they are all one in Spirit so dont go down a cow trail . Show me in the Bible where you baptise a dead man. You repent of your sins first, get baptised, then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost from God, no priest is gonna lay hands on you and give iut to you, its not theirs to give away. After your dead friend, your judged, aint no going back for anything.

Here you go:

John 20:21-23

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. (note this is only the second time God EVER breathed on humans, once to give them life, the second time to give the Apostles power to remit or retain sins, that's how important the sacrament is)

James 5:16

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (I don't know if it gets any plainer than that).

And while you're at it you may want to open up the Old Tetament and read on the Levitical priesthood offering sacrifice for ones sin. God doesn't change, we can't just divorce ourselves from the Old Testament.

Well posted, Pantsman

Lostsheep,

Why is it evil to do good?

We are known by our actions (Fruits).

You are coming across accusitory and frustrated, what do you care what someone prays for? Or what ritual they may want to do, for anothers behalf. Do you fear? Do you think you are doing God's will by parroting what some self professed pastor has taught you. Come up with some original thought and you will know who it comes from, rather than just repeating some worn out bigotry.

Then your presence may be edifying

regards, Son

[lost sheep]

A typical funeral I agree with, but being baptised after your dead sounds silly and is in no way Biblical. So yes I would laugh at someone baptising a dead person. John Paul was a good man, but in no way needs to be set up as a high priest to to be equal or take the same position as Jesus. Those folks need to confess their sins to Jesus, not the priest, they didnt sin against the priest did they, Jesus was the one who died on the cross.

I'm thinking you may not know your Bible as well as you think you do...

evidence one: Your claim of no baptism for the dead in the bible

evidence two: Your claim of no role of the priest in repentance

HiJolly

Show me in the Bible in the KJV where you talk to a priest or anyone when asking for forgiveness of your sins other than Jesus Christ. Dont say God either, we know they are all one in Spirit so dont go down a cow trail . Show me in the Bible where you baptise a dead man. You repent of your sins first, get baptised, then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost from God, no priest is gonna lay hands on you and give iut to you, its not theirs to give away. After your dead friend, your judged, aint no going back for anything.

Here you go:

John 20:21-23

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. (note this is only the second time God EVER breathed on humans, once to give them life, the second time to give the Apostles power to remit or retain sins, that's how important the sacrament is)

James 5:16

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (I don't know if it gets any plainer than that).

And while you're at it you may want to open up the Old Tetament and read on the Levitical priesthood offering sacrifice for ones sin. God doesn't change, we can't just divorce ourselves from the Old Testament.

Oh buddy you aint got squate on me when it comes to the Bible. KJV, I dont fool with the other versions though. When it came to salvation, read Act 2:38, matter of fact read all of Acts. Confess our faults yeah, but we sin against God, not man, you repent to God above. Did you read Acts yet? Cause there were some that beleived but did not recieve nothing until the Apostles laid hands on them and then they were filled with the Holy Ghost, but remember Paul said it wasnt his to sell? Forgot that part didnt ya? Paul and the rest of the Apostels just like men of God today are mere vessels used by God, not one man walking the face of this earth can give you the Holy Ghost.

[Selah]

We do sin against God every time we sin but there are plenty of time that we sin against man as well in conjunction with God. This is why we should also ask for forgiveness from the person whom we have offended. There is a particular scripture I am thinking of but I can't recall exactly where it is. I think it's 1st John chapter one where it says...If your brother sins aginst you, talk the matter out.

I am a Born again Christian Lost Sheep but you are dead wrong when you say that men don't sin against men.

[Pantsman]

A typical funeral I agree with, but being baptised after your dead sounds silly and is in no way Biblical. So yes I would laugh at someone baptising a dead person. John Paul was a good man, but in no way needs to be set up as a high priest to to be equal or take the same position as Jesus. Those folks need to confess their sins to Jesus, not the priest, they didnt sin against the priest did they, Jesus was the one who died on the cross.

I'm thinking you may not know your Bible as well as you think you do...

evidence one: Your claim of no baptism for the dead in the bible

evidence two: Your claim of no role of the priest in repentance

HiJolly

Show me in the Bible in the KJV where you talk to a priest or anyone when asking for forgiveness of your sins other than Jesus Christ. Dont say God either, we know they are all one in Spirit so dont go down a cow trail . Show me in the Bible where you baptise a dead man. You repent of your sins first, get baptised, then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost from God, no priest is gonna lay hands on you and give iut to you, its not theirs to give away. After your dead friend, your judged, aint no going back for anything.

Here you go:

John 20:21-23

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. (note this is only the second time God EVER breathed on humans, once to give them life, the second time to give the Apostles power to remit or retain sins, that's how important the sacrament is)

James 5:16

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (I don't know if it gets any plainer than that).

And while you're at it you may want to open up the Old Tetament and read on the Levitical priesthood offering sacrifice for ones sin. God doesn't change, we can't just divorce ourselves from the Old Testament.

Oh buddy you aint got squate on me when it comes to the Bible. KJV, I dont fool with the other versions though. When it came to salvation, read Act 2:38, matter of fact read all of Acts. Confess our faults yeah, but we sin against God, not man, you repent to God above. Did you read Acts yet? Cause there were some that beleived but did not recieve nothing until the Apostles laid hands on them and then they were filled with the Holy Ghost, but remember Paul said it wasnt his to sell? Forgot that part didnt ya? Paul and the rest of the Apostels just like men of God today are mere vessels used by God, not one man walking the face of this earth can give you the Holy Ghost.

You asked for verses, I gave you two, if people aren't confessing their sins to Apostles why are they forgiving them? In fact why give the Apostles power to forgive and retain sins at all if all you need to do is go to God directly?

I gave you two passages from your KJV that shows the Apostles either forgiving sins in God's name, or telling others to confess their sins to one another and ask for prayers. There you go, you asked I gave it to you clear as day.

[emeliza]

You are correct we are supposed to do this for our own ancestors or get permission from the descendants of those we wish to do work for. Someone got over eager and jumped the gun.

Are we sure the people weren't related to the Pope that did the work? I mean we have many people on here that are split LDS/Catholic family and many people that are converts. Could very well be that some relative did the work.

But again I am not sure how direct the relationship needs to be either. Obviously it wasn't a child of the Pope's that did the work (as he didn't have kids), but it could have been a niece or nephew or cousin or something along those lines.

[Pax Romana]

You are correct we are supposed to do this for our own ancestors or get permission from the descendants of those we wish to do work for. Someone got over eager and jumped the gun.

Are we sure the people weren't related to the Pope that did the work? I mean we have many people on here that are split LDS/Catholic family and many people that are converts. Could very well be that some relative did the work.

But again I am not sure how direct the relationship needs to be either. Obviously it wasn't a child of the Pope's that did the work (as he didn't have kids), but it could have been a niece or nephew or cousin or something along those lines.

While I find that somewhat unlikely, I won't discount the possibility.

Still, I hope you'll forgive me for saying (in my admittedly biased way) that if JP2 can't get in on his own, I don't see what hope there is for the rest of us

Oh buddy you aint got squate on me when it comes to the Bible. KJV, I dont fool with the other versions though. When it came to salvation, read Act 2:38, matter of fact read all of Acts. Confess our faults yeah, but we sin against God, not man, you repent to God above. Did you read Acts yet? Cause there were some that beleived but did not recieve nothing until the Apostles laid hands on them and then they were filled with the Holy Ghost, but remember Paul said it wasnt his to sell? Forgot that part didnt ya? Paul and the rest of the Apostels just like men of God today are mere vessels used by God, not one man walking the face of this earth can give you the Holy Ghost.

Lost Sheep, may I ask what denomination YOU are?