Jesus On Faith And Works

[Theophilus]

In the "works" thread, in the context of "what is the relationship between salvation and works", Cougarfan wrote the following:

Clearly Jesus taught that the two great commandments were:

1) To honor the Lord thy God (without obeying the law how can one honor God?)

and

2) To love thy neighbor (without works how can one love his neighbor?)

What I notice, however, is that there is a difference between:

"Honouring God requires works" and

"Salvation requires works".

"Honouring God", and "salvation", are not the same thing.

I notice a difference between:

"Loving thy neighbour requires works" and

"Salvation requires works".

"Loving thy neighbour", and "salvation", are not the same thing.

I have said it before, many seem to interpret any mention of "works", and insert the context "required for salvation", thinking that is the implied context, when it is not.

These are what the Savior taught. Where did the Savior ever teach that belief was enough? If belief was sufficient, I believe the Savior would have said so.

Permit me to direct your attention to John's gospel:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

No mention of any "works" required.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

No mention of any "works" required.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No mention of any "works" required.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

No mention of any "works" required.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

No mention of any "works" required.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No mention of any "works" required.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

No mention of any "works" required.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

No mention of any "works" required.

So we see that Jesus' gospel is completely consistent with Paul's repeated preaching of salvation by faith, "not by works" (Eph. 2:8, Titus 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, 9:11-16, 11:5-6, etc.)

Now, likely there will be those who have the immediate reaction to want to cite the passages of Jesus preaching "works". I have no problem with Jesus preaching "works". I can see why He preached them. They weren't in the context of "salvation" (at least as a reasonable expectation).

There are two different contexts in which Jesus preached "works", and we need to examine each context in turn.

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First, there are the passages such as this well-known one:

Mar 10:17  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mar 10:18  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mar 10:19  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mar 10:20  And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Mar 10:22  And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Now, I think it is important that whenever Jesus preached "works" in this context, He preached the works of "the [Mosaic] Law", "the commandments". Indeed, it is exactly that context which Jesus preached above. Now, was this to "complete the covenant" to achieve salvation? Most certainly not. Christ knew the purpose of the Law just as well as Paul did. So what was the purpose of the Law, and why did Jesus keep pointing others to it if it wasn't to "complete the salvation process started by God"?:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And again:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So we learn two things:

1) No one will be justified by the Law;

2) The purpose of the Law was to teach us of sin.

Did Jesus believe that the man who came up to Him and told him, "all these I have observed from my youth"? If such were the case, wouldn't Jesus have simply told him that he just needed faith, and between faith and the commandments he was all set? No, the man clearly didn't recognize he was a sinner, he still thought he "kept" the law. He thought he was doing good enough. That's why Jesus pointed him back to the law, for the law teaches us our sin (Rom. 3:20), and the man obviously hadn't learned that lesson yet.

As Charles H. Spurgeon once said:

The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride:

  the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair.

The man was self-righteous, and proud, "yes I have kept the law".

He needed to continue to "learn the lesson" that he in fact cannot keep the law. The law is an object lesson, in the same way that Tic-Tac-Toe is an object lesson that it is an unwinnable game. So since he hadn't learned of his sin yet, Jesus pointed him back to the law, to learn that lesson. But to those who knew they were sinners, he preached salvation by faith:

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (cf. John 3:15,16, 18, 36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25,26)

When one learns they are sinners, and therefore cannot enter God's holy rest due to their sinfulness, they despair, and as Spurgeon said:

the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair.

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The second context in which Jesus preaches about "works" is as in the following:

Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [...] 

Now, there are two concepts which need to be considered here:

1) The distinction between "causation" and "correlation". It is assumed by many that the works are the "cause", the "basis" for identifying the sheep and the goats. This alleged "causation", however, is never stated. What the context does show, and what EV's certainly agree, is that there is a correlation between the two. But which causes what? Do good works make one a "sheep"? Or does being a sheep cause one to do "good works"? Does growing apples make the tree an apple tree, or does the apple tree determine that the fruits grown will be apples? Either one is possible by the immediate context, and only one ("being a sheep produces good works, the "fruits") is consistent with Jesus' and Paul's teaching of salvation being of faith.

2) The distinction between "prescription" ("instruction") and "description" (observation/assertion). The Matt. 25 passage is a passage of description, not of prescription. although many seem to want to interpret it as "prescription".

It does't say, "do good works, and you will then be a sheep".

It says, "good works were done by the sheep".

This is a significant difference.

Theophilus

[cksalmon]

Well said, er...written.

CKS

[roman]

Yes very good a true biblical perspective

[Zeta-Flux]

One of the great truths restored by the prophet Joseph Smith is that there is a difference between salvation and eternal life. Salvation from death and Adam's fall is made universal by the atonement of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, we are still judged by our works, and only those who do works worthy of a celestial inheritance will receive such.

Salvation has reference to so many things. Being saved from death, from sin, from our carnal natures, from pain, from sorrow, and from a corrupt world. Works also refer to many different things. In the scriptures, we read of works done by righteous men, works done by God, works done by the wicked, and the "works of the law of Moses" which Paul struggles (nearly in vain) to teach are not necessary for salvation. We read of grace, which comes from Christ's condescension and atonement, of God's grace in having the sun rise over the wicked and the righteous, and in giving us each our daily breath. We read of justification, sanctification, being born again, eternal life, and myriad other aspects of God's great "plan of salvation."

These things have been argued since Adam's day, and will be argued until all things are put beneath Jesus' feet. There will be misunderstandings, differing definitions of even straightfoward words like "work," differing opinions on Jesus' true intent, and so forth. So what are we to do? I say pray for help. Ask and ye shall receive.

I'll now leave you with something I hope is usefull. One day I wanted to focus on just one aspect of God's plan. Namely, inheriting eternal life. So I did a search for the terms "eternal", "life", and "everlasting" and came up with the following list. I hope it is beneficial to you all. I'll let the text speak for itself.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Matt. 19:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matt. 19:

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Matt. 25:

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 10:

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:

28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Luke 10:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 18:

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Luke 18:

29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,

30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 4:

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 4:

35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 6:

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

John 6:

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

[Libs]

For a good understanding of faith & works, from an LDS perspective, read Stephen E. Robinson's book, "Believing Christ". It's really excellent.

Here is an excerpt:

"EASY" GRACE

On one occasion I was lecturing on a related subject in a small town in Nevada. I explained that perfection was not required of us all at once but that we are obligated to do all we can while the Savior has promised to do the rest. After the lecture someone came up to me and said, "Dr. Robinson, do you know what this means? It means I don't have to can peaches this year!" At this there was a general round of laughter, but when it subsided, I quickly responded, "Oh no, my friend, you have misunderstood me. That's not what it means at all. If you really believe that God expects you to can peaches (and that's an arguable proposition), then you must can all the peaches you're able to can. All this doctrine means is that you don't need to feel guilty or worry about the peaches you can't can."

This is not a doctrine of "easy" grace. There is no virtue one might have possessed before entering the covenant that one may then discard or renounce upon entering the covenant

[BCSpace]

No mention of any "works" required.

Theophilus has yet to explain how these verses preclude those verses that specifically require works of various sorts for salvation and he has yet to explain how one can believe in Christ without doing or believing what he and his prophets say.

The fact remains that there are no Bible verses that even imply that works are not required.

[Zeta-Flux]

No mention of any "works" required.

Theophilus has yet to explain how these verses preclude those verses that specifically require works of various sorts for salvation and he has yet to explain how one can believe in Christ without doing or believing what he and his prophets say.

The fact remains that there are no Bible verses that even imply that works are not required.

BCSpace,

It is actually more difficult than that. You will notice that every time Theophilus put his red disclaimer of "No mention of any works required" these verses all talked about believing in Jesus. For us, that is a work. In fact, we read:

John 6:

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I read this as saying something like "Doing the work of God is believing on Jesus." So, to use scriptures that explicitly mention belief in Christ (i.e. a work under our definition of "work") as evidence against our view that works are required for exaltation is simply engaging in equivocation, once they know that that is how we (and the dictionary) use the word.

Of course they are free to argue that we are not using "work" the way the Bible does. They are free to argue that the Bible uses the word consistently.They are free to argue we should only use "work" in theological discussions the way (they believe) the Bible does. But they cannot establish that our position that "works are necessary for eternal life" is wrong by quoting scriptures which clearly mention works (as *we* are using the word).

[thesometimesaint]

Theophilus;

Matthew 25:1-46

[Theophilus]

Theophilus;

Matthew 25:1-46

sometimesaint,

I addressed that passage in my original post.

Did you even read it?

Theophilus

[urroner]

It does't say, "do good works, and you will then be a sheep".

It says, "good works were done by the sheep".

This is a significant difference.

Theophilus

Just because it doesn't say X in the Bible doesn't mean that X is false as some Christian logic would have it.

An example of this logical fallacy: Theo believes the only valid interpretation of the Bible is his interpretation. I make this statement because I have never heard him say otherwise, therefore he must believe it.

BTW, nobody denies that good work are done by the sheep.

[Theophilus]

No mention of any "works" required.

Theophilus has yet to explain how these verses preclude those verses that specifically require works of various sorts for salvation

Actually, BC, I did that in my initial post.

Perhaps you skimmed over it too quickly, and need to read it more carefully.

and he has yet to explain how one can believe in Christ without doing or believing what he and his prophets say.

That is not even my position!

I certainly do believe that one who believes in Christ will do His commandments. What you seem to keep missing is that these "works", these "doings", don't contribute to our salvation, since our salvation is all of grace.

The fact remains that there are no Bible verses that even imply that works are not required.

I will be charitable and conclude that your assertion above is simply because you didn't read my original post (carefully). You can gainsay all you want, but I will simply cite once again the many verses which you claim don't exist, and the unbiased reader can make up their own mind:

John 3:15 "believeth" --> "eternal life"

John 3:16 "believeth" --> "eternal life"

John 3:18 "believeth" --> "not condemned"

John 3:36 "believeth" --> "everlasting life"

John 5:24 "believeth" --> "everlasting life"

John 6:40 "believeth" --> "everlasting life"

John 6:47 "believeth" --> "everlasting life"

Eph. 2:8-9 "faith" "not by works" --> "saved"

Titus 3:5 "mercy", "not by works" --> "saved"

2 Tim. 1:9 "grace", "not works" --> "saved"

Rom. 4:1-5 "grace", "worketh not" --> "righteousness"

etc. etc.

Theophilus

[thesometimesaint]

Theophilus:

Of course not. I'm one of those braindead Moremans that needs to be told what I believe.

Matthew 25:46

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This sure doesn't sound like Salvation to me.

[Theophilus]

It does't say, "do good works, and you will then be a sheep".

It says, "good works were done by the sheep".

This is a significant difference.

Theophilus

Just because it doesn't say X in the Bible doesn't mean that X is false as some Christian logic would have it.

Very true. And you make my point for me.

LDS, Catholics, and others are the ones who keep bringing up Matt. 25 as some "proof-text" that works are "required" for salvation. My point is not that the lack of it actually saying that is somehow "proof" that works aren't required for salvation, it is simply that they can't cite Matt. 25 as evidence for their claim because it simply doesn't say that.

My position of "not by works" isn't based on an argument from silence.

It is based on the explicit positive teaching of "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, 9:11-16, 11:5-6, etc. etc. )

BTW, nobody denies that good work are done by the sheep.

Exactly.

I'm not denying the "good works".

I'm simply denying their alleged "causative" power for salvation/election.

Theophilus

[urroner]

So how do we enter in through the strait and narrow gate? Do we do it willingly or are we pushed through it?

[Theophilus]

So how do we enter in through the strait and narrow gate?  Do we do it willingly or are we pushed through it?

We go willingly under the direction of the Shepherd only after He finds us and leads us.

Theophilus

[thesometimesaint]

Theophilus:

James 2: 18, 19, 20, 26

18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[urroner]

So how do we enter in through the strait and narrow gate?  Do we do it willingly or are we pushed through it?

We go willingly under the direction of the Shepherd only after He finds us and leads us.

Theophilus

So, once he starts to lead us after finding us, can we still not go through the gate?

BTW, how can Christ "finally find us" if he knew where we were all the time?

[Theophilus]

So, once he starts to lead us after finding us, can we still not go through the gate?

Well, insofar as the "Shepherd-sheep" analogy (Christ's analogy, not mine) goes, He will herd all His sheep along the way He wants to go.

But insofar as it deals with the elect, having been given the gift of faith, the changed heart from stone to flesh, and the Holy Spirit which is our seal of salvation, none would want to "not go through the gate".

BTW, how can Christ "finally find us" if he knew where we were all the time?

I guess it would be more precise then to speak of "gathering", rather than "finding".

Theophilus

[Theophilus]

James 2: 18, 19, 20, 26

18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

     

[urroner]

So, once he starts to lead us after finding us, can we still not go through the gate?

Well, insofar as the "Shepherd-sheep" analogy (Christ's analogy, not mine) goes, He will herd all His sheep along the way He wants to go.

But insofar as it deals with the elect, having been given the gift of faith, the changed heart from stone to flesh, and the Holy Spirit which is our seal of salvation, none would want to "not go through the gate".

So when it comes down to brass thumb tacks, the elect don't have a choice of going through or not going through. God took that away from them.

[Theophilus]

But insofar as it deals with the elect, having been given the gift of faith, the changed heart from stone to flesh, and the Holy Spirit which is our seal of salvation, none would want to "not go through the gate".

So when it comes down to brass thumb tacks, the elect don't have a choice of going through or not going through. God took that away from them.

In a word, no.

When I said, "no one would want to", what that means is that all of the elect willingly choose to (none choose "not to").

They have a choice, they make their choice, and I don't understand how (or why) you could try to claim "their choice was taken away from them".

Your position seems like word games to me.

For instance, I had a choice of going to the library yesterday. I chose not to. Your argument is like saying today, since I didn't go to the library yesterday, and I can't change that, then therefore I must not have "had" that choice to begin with.

Theophilus

[Zeta-Flux]

Your position seems like word games to me.

It might just be a matter of having completely different logical frameworks. One thing that might help clarify things is explaining whether you hold to libertarian choice, compatibilism, or some other form of "will." It seems to me that urroner is coming from a libertarian free-will angle, and believes that we always can "choose to do otherwise" so to speak. You seem to be coming from a compatibilistic framework.

[urroner]

But insofar as it deals with the elect, having been given the gift of faith, the changed heart from stone to flesh, and the Holy Spirit which is our seal of salvation, none would want to "not go through the gate".

So when it comes down to brass thumb tacks, the elect don't have a choice of going through or not going through. God took that away from them.

In a word, no.

When I said, "no one would want to", what that means is that all of the elect willingly choose to (none choose "not to").

They have a choice, they make their choice, and I don't understand how (or why) you could try to claim "their choice was taken away from them".

Your position seems like word games to me.

For instance, I had a choice of going to the library yesterday. I chose not to. Your argument is like saying today, since I didn't go to the library yesterday, and I can't change that, then therefore I must not have "had" that choice to begin with.

Theophilus

No, that's not what I mean.

Where you are coming from, if I'm not mistaken, the elect person is changed so they will not not want to follow God and be with Him. That's all fine and dandy, but that's logically equivalent to God changing somebody to want to be a slave and then the person is over joyed with being a slave and he willingly becomes a slave. Same method used for different results, one pleasant and the other not so pleasant.

Maybe zeta has a point. Your definition of "will" and my definition of "will" are two different things.

[freakin a man]

In my understanding of ancient thought, one can not make a distinction between "to believe" and "works" They go hand in hand.

As Michael Griffith in his book "A Ready Reply" p. 43-44 noted:

"The words "believe" and "faith" in these quotes are used in their original, premodern sense. They do not refer to "believing certain prepositions to be true," but mean "to give one's heart to." (Marcus Borg "Letters to the Editor, Bible Review" October 1993 p. 58)

The "Son of God" text in Qumran, in speaking of the righteous and the wicked, refers to the former as "all who believe" and to the latter as "all who do evil". (Charlesworth, James "Reinterpreting John: How the Dead Sea Scrolls Have Revolutionized Our Understanding of the Gospel of John," In Bible Review, Feburary 1993 p. 23). Yet, no one would suggest that the rigid Essenes at Qumran taught the righteous where those who simply accepted the veracity of the true religion. Clearly, when the Essenes referred to "all who believe" they where speaking of those who strove to obey God's commandments."

So whether works are mentioned specifically in passages like John 3:16 I don't find important. Satan and his angels believe in Christ and God the Father but they don't keep their commandments and or do good works.

[mnn727]

Salvation= Free gift to everyone, nothing is required

Exaltation = Working to become Christ-like