The Biblical Gods:

[Benjamin McGuire]

Bill Hamblin writes:

This is most clear from the fact that it is possible to make images of beings which biblical authors believed did exist--most notably cherubim, but also it is possible to make an image of Yahweh himself.

I argue that Israelite religion at some point embraced the cult of the teraphim - in that God (represented by the teraphim) is referred to in passages like Exodus 21:6 (or 1 Sam. 19:13). It wasn't just that images of YHWH were possible, I suggest that for a period, they were in common use.

Biblical authors would likewise reject the idea that an image of Yahweh or of a cherub had any life or power in it, while not denying the existence of the being that image was meant to represent. You are thus conflating two different ideas.

I would therefore suggest that this belief develops from an earlier acceptance of these images as reflecting the presence of the divine. In the Josian reform, they were done away with completely (although probably the perception of them had already fallen). So, in 1 Kings 23:24

Furthermore, Josiah got rid of the mediums and spiritists, the household gods (teraphim), the idols and all the other detestable things seen in Judah and Jerusalem. This he did to fulfill the requirements of the law written in the book that Hilkiah the priest had discovered in the temple of the LORD.

Markk writes:

These gods are clearly 'defined' as the gods/elohims of the nations, the Canaanite nations and others, the bible clearly is calling Israel not to give in to the idol worship of these nations while all along claiming that the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is the one true God for Israel.

Exactly so. YHWH was the one true GOd for Israel. But this is not true for the rest of the nations. Deuteronomy 4 suggests that they were given other things to worship (by YHWH himself). The notion that YHWH was the God of the whole earth starts off as an eschatalogical belief (as in Psalm 82) - and the indication that God should arise to inherit all nations (in Psalm 82) is a clear reference to the notion that at the time God (YHWH) was not the God of all the nations of the earth. In Jeremiah, for the first time, is it viewed as a sin to the other nations not to worship YHWH. Part of this, I think, may stem from a view that in fact, in the return from exile, the eschatalogical moment was at hand. This view would later be rejected (or repeated), but it may also be behind texts like 2 Chronicles 36:20-23 and Isaiah 44:28-45:1. Particularly, the Isaiah passage where Cyrus is referred to as Messiah (the anointed).

And? My point is that the Bible is clear that these idols were man made, and nothing more that idols, Cherubim or angels are created beings and with in the pail of orthodoxy to Israel, while the elohim were clearly written about as being false and for Israel to forbid, even though they did not listen for the most part, always falling back into idol worship ( as Aaron did the first chance they had). Thus the Bible is a correction notice to Israel defining the true nature of God.

It certainly isn't a correction in the writings of the Bible prior to the final form of Jeremiah. As I noted before, this is (according to evangelical scholar Larry Hurtado) nothing more than a theologically motivated anti-critical apologetic view of the text.

Ben

[David Bokovoy]

Still tied up with the ark, but I just had to add one thing:

==As for a Jew who apparently believed in multiple gods, I would suggest Jesus in John 10:33-36.

Brilliant!

[Doctor Steuss]

I have always found it interesting how YHWH usually refers to himself as

[Zakuska]

Still tied up with the ark, but I just had to add one thing:

==As for a Jew who apparently believed in multiple gods, I would suggest Jesus in John 10:33-36.

Brilliant!

Isn't Satan called the god of this world, the prince of the air?

2 Cor. 4: 4

I beleive that would also lend to the Jews believing in multiple God's theory as well.

Paul being first and for most a Jew for Jesus.

[Bill Hamblin]

Markk is still under a misapprehension about the biblical perceptions of the ontological reality of the idol/gods of the pagans.

There are a number of passages in the Bible which demonstrate that the Jews understood the idols/gods of the pagans to be demons. In Dt 32:17:

[Markk]

Hi Bill,

So, Markk, do you believe that Jesus really cast out demons? Do those demons really exist? If so, does why Christ equate Satan with Canaanite Baal? What does all this tell you about the ontological existence of pagan gods?

First, Christ does not equate Satan "with" Canaanite Baal, Satan was called Beelzebub, assimilated from the Philistine deity, as were many of the names of the Canaanite deities, including El, El Shaddai...etc. This is a reference to Satan and his fallen cohorts. I'm not sure what your point is here other than trying to prove something that is clearly taught against in Scripture, to support LDS ideology in some way.

I gave plenty of cf in my last post to David that should be addressed, how the Bible teaches that the elohims were just man made objects and not real, did Israel always listen? no, they were disobedient, just like many here, denying the strict command of God, that He alone is God, and sought other gods. This goes on today, as it did back then.

More later

Mark

John 1:12

[Kevin Graham]

Markk you never did deal with any of the evidence I provided here: http://www.kevingraham.org/gog.htm

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Mark,

==First, Christ does not equate Satan "with" Canaanite Baal, Satan was called Beelzebub, assimilated from the Philistine deity

Just a humble suggestion.

When interacting with people who hold advanced degrees relevant to the topic your considering, you may wish to preface your comments with-- at minimum-- the qualifier,

[Zakuska]

markk... thems figth'n words:

no, they were disobedient, just like many here, denying the strict command of God, that He alone is God, and sought other gods. This goes on today, as it did back then.

I fail to see that acknowledging the reality and existance of other divine beings called gods equates to... "Seeking after other gods?" Care to explain?

Satans plan was to make himself the one and only true God. Sitting in the Throne of God. Shewing himself that he is God. Exalting himself above all that is Godly.

The Fathers plan was to exalt all of his children and make them gods, Joint-Heirs with Christ to all he hath.

Even Paul knew this...

1 Cor. 8: 5

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

So are you telling me that all those caannanite wooden Idols are floating up there on Cloud nine?

For us there is only One God who we worship and one Lord who is our Mediator. But that doesn't make all those other divine beings called gods magically vanish.

[urroner]

If you would like to read an interesting and easily accessible article on this issue you may wish to consider Bradley L. Stein,

[Zakuska]

This custom continues to this very day!

In the ancient Near East, in other words, you dealt with foreign gods by subjecting them to ridicule. In numerous instances in the Hebrew Bible, people are castigated for respecting

[Bill Hamblin]

I gave plenty of cf in my last post to David that should be addressed, how the Bible teaches that the elohims were just man made objects and not real,

You have here reiterated your claim that the elohim of the nations were "not real."

Given this claim, let me ask two simple questions based on the evidence I presented:

1- According to the Bible, are the demons Christ casts out ontologically real beings?

2- According to the Bible, are the gods of the pagans these demons?

If the answer is no, could you explain the meaning of the passages I cited?

If the answer to these questions is yes, then it seems at least some biblical writers believed the elohim of the pagans were real, and therefore your claim is wrong.

If we can clarify this matter, we can move on to the next issue in a much longer argument.

[Cold Steel]

Before we continue, perhaps we should determine what, exactly, gods are, both in ancient Jewish tradition and in LDS theology. When a "council of the gods" is being discussed, what are we discussing? Once David Bokovoy is finished building his ark, he can address this since it's his thread. I don't suppose for an instant that the council consists of gods anyone would worship.

[Bill Hamblin]

The council of gods can be addressed, but I'd like Markk to get clear on biblical conceptions of the ontological reality of elohim before we do.

[Bill Hamblin]

Eagerly awaiting Markk's explanation on pagan gods ontological reality as demons.

[Markk]

Hi Kevin,

Yes I did, go back and read, I wrote something to the effect that the wooden literal interpretation you believe create tons of problems. I'll find it for you this weekend or respond in detail.

Zak,

Pauls qualified his statement in the verse before by saying..."As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one."

Do you believe that gods with fish bodies, naked Lady's, etc are "floating around" up there?

The context of the verse you quoted has to do with meat from the pagan meat markets and the former idol worshippers, and Paul makes it very clear that there is just one God and that the rest are idols. You have to read all the verse Zak.

Bill,

James makes it clear that there is One God and that even the demons realize this, and they tremble. They are very real and are fallen created beings who rebelled with Lucifer. Again you have not addressed the references I gave you that show that the Elohim were not "Gods", but idols made by the hands of man.

I catch up this week end

David,

When the ark is done I will expect a post dealing with the references I gave, which there are more. As far as scholarship goes I am not intimidated by it. The over whelming population are atheists, believe that killing a child in the whom is OK and are anti establishment and believe they are above accountability in what they teach, scholarship just because it is scholarship, especially in a subjective field like biblical studies is just another opinion. I don't say this as dis respect, just that i do not in any way feel intimidated or impressed just because one is a scholar. That said I love you and pray all is going well in the rain, and was thinking of you when I was at the Oceanside jetty last weeked watching my son being thrashed by giant swells, it got big. I was fishing on the jetty and had to retreat.

Anyway got to go, I'll catch up this weekend, I'm still doing the Yucaipa to Carlsbad commute, I'm beat. Just to catch you up June gloom has started early which is good for work, bad for the weekends.

Mark

John 1:12

[Zakuska]

Markk,

James makes it clear that there is One God and that even the demons realize this, and they tremble. They are very real and are fallen created beings who rebelled with Lucifer. Again you have not addressed the references I gave you that show that the Elohim were not "Gods", but idols made by the hands of man.

Is it just me or Did Mark just call God a man?

God created the demons Markk and Man created the wooden Images that represented them, but what you are saying is the demons do no exist at all.

There are gods many and lords many both in heaven and on earth but for us to worship there is but one... Christs father... so much for the trinity!

What about the parenthetical don't you understand Markk?

(as there be gods many, and lords many,)

At best all you can say is the Hebrew Bible contradicts itsself!

Isa. 43: 10

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

vs

Pslams 82

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

But now you've got another problem with traditional Christian Doctine on the infallibilty of the Bible.

Are you going to stone Christ along with the Jews?

Look at how Christ/John interprets the verse Markk.

John 10

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are agods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The God that came in to judge the council of gods was the word of God (ie Christ himself) so Christ himself is calling these other divine beings... gods.

Are you calling Christ a Liar Markk?

Do you remember that the word of God (ie Jesus Christ) called someone other than himself... God? (John 20:17)

So here we have Christ as a God (even the word of God) calling other divine beings gods and acknowledging that his father is our father, and his God is our God.

Sounds like there is more than one God to me!

No wonders the bible declares Gods children as gods. He is the "God of gods" afterall!

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Mark,

==Only in the context that they would hold that the mythical gods of the Canaanite peoples were real existing gods?

I

[Bill Hamblin]

James makes it clear that there is One God and that even the demons realize this, and they tremble. They are very real and are fallen created beings who rebelled with Lucifer.

Good. We are making progress. You believe in the existence of demons.

So, when the Bible equates pagan gods with demons (see references I have given), doesn't that imply that the pagan gods are real?

[Platypus Man]

Where does Duet. 6:4 fall at in this?

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

[Cold Steel]

When Latter-day Saints see the term "gods," they in no way view these beings as competitors with the Father. In fact, these beings in all liklihood were beings of glory, many of them beings who had been foreordained in the premortal existence. Someone once said (and I can't remember who) that "gods" referred to any beings who were in league with the Father in His great work of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The word "council" is self explanatory.

God uses men to bring about His great work. They can be men living on Earth as mortals; they may serve as angels -- holy messengers; or they can take part in great councils. All are learning experiences for the elect. And, in the end, these beings will receive of the Father's fulness and become co-inheritors with Christ.

The "gods" in councils aren't intended to be worshipped, but they play major parts in our lives, in the creation of Earth, in our judgment and in our resurrections. They are all one, even as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. (Thus, the scripture, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." We all become one with God by doing His will.) Some sources imply that even Satan and his followers are gods -- false gods; and that their purpose is to thwart the plans of the God of gods.

[Platypus Man]

Thanks Col Steel. I just cam across this interpretation which I think sheds more light on the verse and on what you were saying. Thanks agian.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD [is] our God, the LORD alone."

[MorningStar]

*lifts thread out from under the heap of locked Grant Palmer threads*

[William the Conqueror]

David and Bill,

In Job where it says (paraphrased) that the Sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan came forward.....

Is this the Council of Deities that you are talking about?

[David Bokovoy]

==Is this the Council of Deities that you are talking about?

This is certainly a council story. Yes indeed!!