The Biblical Gods:

[Bill Hamblin]

In Job where it says (paraphrased) that the Sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan came forward.....

In Job 1:6; yes.

[David Bokovoy]

The expression bene-haelohim, or

[Markk]

Hi Zak,

I'm not sure i get ya on this one, try again?

David,

I

[David Bokovoy]

Just to clarify, here is the exchange to which I alluded from the Psalm 47 thread.

In response to a large list of issues Mark needed to address to sustain his position, but which Mark, of course, conveniently ignored, Mark wrote:

==I have responded to allot of is not all of your points, if not in this thread but the last one you bailed on, and when you were emmulish or what ever that name was, this is not our first go around, remember?

To which I responded:

==Ok. I suppose I

[Abulafia]

David, just a couple of questions.

1) To what extent do you believe that the writings now contained within the old testament were influenced and perhaps even developed from other belief systems co-existing with a 'Jewish' (sorry for want of a better word) conception of God?

2) To what extent do you feel that correllations between mormon theology (multiplicity of Gods) has more to do with the influence of 'Pagan' religions on Jewish theology?

Just asking...

[William the Conqueror]

==Is this the Council of Deities that you are talking about?

This is certainly a council story.  Yes indeed!!

In I Kings 22: Micah is talking to Ahab and I believe Hezekiah about the taking of Ramoth Gilead.

paraphrased '...I will be a lieing spirit in the mouth of all his prophets..... and the Lord said go and do so....'

Were these also the council of gods?

[Bill Hamblin]

Markk

The same holds true with the fallen angels, they are referred to as the Canaanite deities of evil.

You are still obfuscating. We have now agreed that the Bible understands demons to be real. We seem to now agree that pagan gods were considered demons. What you don't seem to have grasped is that this means pagan gods were real--they are demons. Here is Paul's assessment, which I quoted earlier.

Me

Paul also clearly believes that sacrifices made to pagan idols are sacrifices to demons.

[Zakuska]

If demons are real, and if, when you sacrifice to idols you are sacrificing to demons, doesn't that logically necessitate that pagan gods are demons, and are ontologically real entitites, called "gods"? This is the point you consistently refuse to engage in your discussion. Could you please address this question directly?

Of course not Bill... his house of Cards would tumble.

[Abulafia]

Never done this before, but perhaps I could ahem....'bump' this thread up a bit. It is a really interesting subject.

Abulafia

[Markk]

HI Bill,

Are you reading my posts?

You are still obfuscating. We have now agreed that the Bible understands demons to be real.

Yes, in the context of fallen angel, the third of the host.

What you don't seem to have grasped is that this means pagan gods were real--they are demons.

You believe that? I certainly do not. The pagan gods and mythical gods are false, if the people did in fact worship and offer sacrifice to real demons, this would only be in the context of the fallen angels.

The meat market idols that Paul refers to is very general, the context being not to stumble a new believer in eating the meat purchased at the meat markets from these pagan sacrifices?

I asked you earlier...

Do you believe these gods were real and who were they and how did they come into existence. Or do you hold to the view this is just all mythology? David started this thread with " According to Latter-day Saint theology, God is not alone." so who are these gods that are with the LDS God?

I love to get your answer, it will help me understand your position, also who is "The LORD our God" , which is over and over sited in the OT, to LDS theology and teachings, this is a important question to this conversation?

More later

Mark

John 1:12

[Paul Osborne]

[Ron Beron]

[Bill Hamblin]

Markk seems invincibly unable to understand the argument.

It doesn't matter what I believe; we are trying to understand the world views of the ancient authors of the Bible.

I will give it one more try.

Some biblical authors believed that demons are ontologically real beings.

Some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols are demons.

Therefore some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols represent ontologically real beings.

What part of this do you reject?

[William the Conqueror]

Markk seems invincibly unable to understand the argument.

It doesn't matter what I believe; we are trying to understand the world views of the ancient authors of the Bible.

I will give it one more try.

Some biblical authors believed that demons are ontologically real beings.

Some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols are demons.

Therefore some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols represent ontologically real beings.

What part of this do you reject?

Some biblical authors believed that demons are ontologically real beings.

So do I.

Some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols are demons.

Well I qualify that by your following statement.

Therefore some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols represent ontologically real beings.

I'm not sure what you mean by represent, but I'll say that the belief in pagan gods/idols was certainly sponsored, influenced, and promulgated by demons.

So my question Bill is, were any of these other gods in the council beneficent or rather benevolent gods? That is from your Psalms 82 interpretation these other gods judged the nations. Were these good gods, or were they capricious as the gods in the Greek and Roman pantheons?

[Ron Beron]

Mark

John 1:12

[Markk]

HI Bill

Markk seems invincibly unable to understand the argument.

You crack me up, I'm not the boogie man, you do not have to address me in the third person, but I guess it's kinda cool.

It does matter what you believe, it is very important, that's what apologentics is, defending ones beliefs. My questions are very important to this conversation....what you can ask me what I believe yet I cannot ask you?

Some biblical authors believed that demons are ontologically real beings.

Some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols are demons.

Therefore some biblical authors believed that pagan gods/idols represent ontologically real beings.

What part of this do you reject

?

All of it, the way you are framing it is leading and incorrect, you are funneling it into a preconceived straw man. The biblical authors believed that there are demons, which are fallen angels, the third of the host. You quoted Deut. 32:17, And Psalms 106, worship of demons is a form of idolatry and clearly condemned by the Bible as a correction notice to Israel and to us. Bottom line is if the demons we real they are they third of Satan's host, not the mythical evil deities of the nations. Who is Belial in 1 Sam 2:12 according to LDS theology, Satan and idol worship are equated together 2 Cor. 6:15, 16.

You said that Jesus equates Satan with Baal ( Beelzebub), yet that is not the fact, Jesus calls Satan Beelzebub, the LDS bible dictionary even confirms this, as does LDS general Authority. You are not addressing the assimilation of the names of the Canaanite gods. LDS theology has unwittingly done this also, which is ironic. Who was the unclean spirit in Mark 1:24, and who was he speaking for (Luke 4:34-40)? Who were these demons here, do you believe they were real Caananite deities or fallen angels?

I have answered your questions, whether right or wrong, this is what I believe, and I know what I believe and why I believe it, to have credibility you should do the same, it is easy to just bash ones beliefs with out expressing yours and putting them up for accountability, so I'll try again.

If these elohim are real, and as the Ugarit pantheon suggest ( in nature), how does this relate to the LDS eternal Law of Progression. What does the "LORD our God" mean and who is it referring to according to LDS theology, and who were the demons in the above verses I gave?

Mark

john 1:12

[Markk]

Hi enemy,

You are disregading verse that say that the gods are nothing but idols made by mans hands.

Read the verses and study them in context I gave to David in this thread, you have to put the verse you quoteing in context as to what the Bible teache sthe gods are.

hope this helps

Mark

John 1:12

[Cold Steel]

[Zakuska]

Not only that CS... but his words Imply he was the Only God in all of existance ever "Formed" which causes ALL kinds of problems for Creedal Christians... Uncreated schtuff.

[Markk]

Hi,

Isaiah never says God was formed, that is just not in the text, it says that there was no El created before or after Him, meaning that He alone is God. I have no argument that most Jews would not hold the Christian triune nature of God, and thats OK, what is important is what the Bible teaches and it clearly teaches that there is one God, yet the Father, Son, and HS are God. The first thing to understand though is that there is one God and 43:10 says it best, that one may Know, Understand, and Believe this teaching. This must be read in context with the Book as a whole. Read Isaiah 41:21:29, the LORD is setting the context and asked these deities to present themselves, which they can not because as the text reveals they are non existent, in verse 29 He end with the fact that Their molded images are wind and confusion, their works are nothing and they are in themselves worthless, being just molten images. 43;10 is to be read in this context, that these images are worthless and not God and not real, and as in verse 11, He Alone is Savior.

In Chapter 44, the next chapter Isaiah continues in 44:9-20, it tells the foolishness of making (forming, same word in 43:10) , gods and idols, verse 17 says " and makes into a god (el), his carved image." Clearly this shows that the context of 43:10 is in relation to real Els, not these false Els, meaning isaiah was clearly speaking in monotheistic terms say that the LORD alone is God.

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, [saying], Surely God [is] in thee; and [there is] none else, [there is] no God.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [i am] God, and [there is] none like me,

Given these verses and more if you like, the message of isaiah is that there is one God, no more, no less.

Mark

John 1:12

[Ron Beron]

Hi enemy,

You are disregading verse that say that the gods are nothing but idols made by mans hands.

Read the verses and study them in context I gave to David in this thread, you have to put the verse you quoteing in context as to what the Bible teache sthe gods are.

hope this helps

Mark

John 1:12

I will do so, but while I go over these quotes please take notice of a few notes on the following passage in Genesis where Jacob gives a blessing to Joseph invoking the aspects of various gods indicating a belief in polytheism:

Genesis 49:24-26 hints at the existence of four deities through four distince epithets:

1. 24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; ('Bull" of Jacob or abir yaaqob)

2. 25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee;(the "Shepherd, Stone of Israel',)

3. "El", the father who saves and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of

the deep that lieth under,

4. blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:"breasts and of the womb" (or sadayim waraham here refer to the concept of Asherah)

Some other things to consider

1. Israel was largely Canaanite in culture as well as religous background denying any syncretistic connections.

2. All evidences of the worship of cult dieties such as Baal, El, Anat, and Asherah seperate from that of YHWH is scant.

3. In Deut. 32:8-9,

" When the most High (El Elyon) divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD's (YHWH) portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."

El or El Elyon give Israel to YHWH signifying a seperateness between them or at the very least an indication of the primacy of the tribal diety, YHWH.

4. In Joshua 22:22 the following is read

"22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, (El Elohim yhwh) he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)"

Such language indicates a superlative value given to God, EL, as the chief among all gods, eloheim.

5. In Exodus 6:2-3

2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty (El shadday), but by my name JEHOVAH (Ya or YHWH)was I not known to them.

YHWH proclaims himself before Moses with, "I Am who I Am" or "Ya". Your fathers knew me as El Shadday, but you will know me as Ya or the Sumerian Ea.

[Markk]

Hi E.A.

I will do so, but while I go over these quotes please take notice of a few notes on the following passage in Genesis where Jacob gives a blessing to Joseph invoking the aspects of various gods indicating a belief in polytheism:

Thats fair.

Genesis 49:24-26 hints at the existence of four deities through four distince epithets:

I disagree, go to Genesis 17:1-3, in these three verses The God of Abraham (Abram) is referred to as YHWH, El Shadday, and Elohim.

Asherah is noted as a false deity elsewhere, I would disagree that shad racham is referring to a true deity or even a false one, the different names of God here show His sovereignty, and as I said earlier through assimilation Israel applied attributes of the false gods of the nations to YHWH, He alone is mighty God, He alone is Yahweh. This is proof in it's self of how Israel was monotheistic

1. Israel was largely Canaanite in culture as well as religous background denying any syncretistic connections.

That is what the OT does, corrects Israels disobedience and "trys" to correct them, only two tribes listened for the most part. When you read the verse in context that i gave to David you will begin to see this.

2. All evidences of the worship of cult dieties such as Baal, El, Anat, and Asherah seperate from that of YHWH is scant.

Again, the message of God is to stay away from these fals egods and that they were just that, false, and to worship only the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

3. In Deut. 32:8-9,

" When the most High (El Elyon) divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

9 For the LORD's (YHWH) portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."

El or El Elyon give Israel to YHWH signifying a seperateness between them or at the very least an indication of the primacy of the tribal diety, YHWH.

This has been hashed out here many times, It is referring to Israel as the chosen people for the oracle of God, they are His children, the other gentile nations, you can not separate El Elyon and YHWh...see Gen. 14:22 "And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, "

4. In Joshua 22:22 the following is read

"22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, (El Elohim yhwh) he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)"

Such language indicates a superlative value given to God, EL, as the chief among all gods, eloheim.

The verse I gave address this, He is above all the false gods, there is no indication in the Bible that other gods are real but scores of proof texts that indicate just the opposite. This verse even in contridictory to the deft verse you quoted, if what you said was true and El Shadday is the Highest God then this verse would contradict that in that YHWH is God of gods, making Him higher than the most high, it makes no sense. The verse is referring to pagan idols that have no power or being, and made gods.

5. In Exodus 6:2-3

2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty (El shadday), but by my name JEHOVAH (Ya or YHWH)was I not known to them.

YHWH proclaims himself before Moses with, "I Am who I Am" or "Ya". Your fathers knew me as El Shadday, but you will know me as Ya or the Sumerian Ea.

The special name of YHWH spoken of before the flood was not known to them, now it is, God is getting close. See verse 7, Israel deliverance is assured.

Israel has many names for the One God, trying to separate them is impossible, it just doesn't work in context with the theme of the OT...or NT.

Hope this helps

Mark

John 1;12

[Bill Hamblin]

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

[David Bokovoy]

Sorry about the delayed responses. School is out, and I have as of late devoted a bit of time to scuba diving, a trend that will no doubt continue.

Hello Abulafia,

To what extent do you believe that the writings now contained within the old testament were influenced and perhaps even developed from other belief systems co-existing with a 'Jewish' (sorry for want of a better word) conception of God?

This is really an excellent question for which, unfortunately, there is no quick and easy answer. Suffice it to say that I certainly believe that ancient Israel did not exist in a vacuum. I believe that the surrounding cultures had a tremendous influence on the Bible.

Obviously the

[David Bokovoy]

Hello William,

In I Kings 22: Micah is talking to Ahab and I believe Hezekiah about the taking of Ramoth Gilead.

paraphrased '...I will be a lieing spirit in the mouth of all his prophets..... and the Lord said go and do so....'

Were these also the council of gods?

Yes. This is another council of gods story in the Hebrew Bible. It appears that you are starting to catch the vision.

Regards,

David