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"Adieu" in the Book of Mormon


imarealboy

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Posted

We all know what the word means, what is the issue? I still don't understand why this is a problem. Are the critics supposing that, because it isn't an english word, he translated it directly from the plates? Help me out here

Posted

Freedom, this is the history of the dust up as I know it. Some time back, some anti-Mormon, looking to create a problem, thought that having a 'French' word in the Book of Mormon meant that 'proved' that Joseph Smith had written it himself. Not understanding the mechanics of translation, and sounding really good to the anti bunch, this started to bounce around. It has thoroughly been explained, and is a non-issue. But now and again, someone comes across it, and brings it up again. Same reason. If there is a *gasp* French word, it is a 'mistake.' Even ordinarily smart people can fall for it before they give it a second thought and realize how goofy it is.

Posted

But here is one for you. My father tells me the book must be false because it does not mention many of the great cultural accomplishments of history. If God gave us knowledge wouldn't he mention something about it in his book?

Chone

Well Chone if Solomon Spaulding wrote a novel about the Hebrews in America just for enjoyment (the novel that is), maybe he wouldn't feel the need to mention any of the great cultural events of history. If this novel was to enjoy by your fireside at night why would he need to mention great cultural events? That might spoil the whole plot of the Indian wars before Columbus, that is about 500-600 BC.

Incidentally I believe archeologists would probably say the Indians were here in 600BC and probably had wars among the nations. The question is, were they of Hebrew or Semitic descent.

The other thread encourages me to buy the new book saying Solomon Spaulding's novel has been resurrected. I'll have to check at the nearest Deseret bookstore and compare the cost with Amazon. If it is cheap enough I might want to buy several cartons of it and pass it out to my friends.

Posted
:P<_<:unsure:
Posted
Actually, the word "goodbye" itself derives from the expression "God be with you" and, therefore,  clearly infers "Go with God."

Funny. So when an atheist says to his friend,"OK Bob, it was fun hanging out with you. Good Bye." He is asctually saying, "Go With God." That's Ironic.

Posted
Sundancer,  what you have been seeing on the Rigdon-Spalding thread is not evidence.  It is hints. Supposition.  Suspicion.  But it has not risen anywhere near the level that the most ardent anti-Mormon would dare call evidence.  See Uncle Dale, who is keeping the thread going.  He is asking for people to study these hints, suspicions, etc. to see if they can't come up with something that approaches evidence.

P.S. Bsix isn't saying "adieu" is in the Bible.  He is saying that, for instance, the word "banquet" also French is in the KJV is the same type of thng.

Charity,

Earth to you. This is a direct quote from Bsix.

"The critics of "adieu" in the Book of Mormon have always been oddly silent about the use of the same word in the Bible."

What does "the same word" mean to you, Charity?

You're in error regarding "evidence" vs "hints", however you are most welcome to stand by your position. I'd probably handle it the same way.

Lady Sundancer

Posted

Ah, Dancer, Mocking again, are we? I can take it. I am thick skinned. I could answer back with something like, "You think you are right. And I know I am right." But I won't. I can be patient. The truth will all be known at some time in the future.

Posted

Earth to LadySundancer: Please explain WHY "adieu" is a hint at problems in the BofM when the use of the SAME WORD in the KJV Bible is not a hint at "problems" with the Bible.

I am truly having difficulty comprehending your point. (If you HAVE a point...)

That there are points of contention regarding the BofM I will be the first to admit. But "adieu" is NOT one of those points of contention, and cannot be, by the very nature of the translation process.

(Someone ought to do a word study and see how many times "adieu" has been used in early 19th century American literature, including novels, essays, speeches, political tracts, histories, and anything else anyone can think of. It would put the issue to rest right quick. cool.gif )

Beowulf

Posted
Ah, Dancer, Mocking again, are we? I can take it. I am thick skinned. I could answer back with something like, "You think you are right. And I know I am right." But I won't. I can be patient. The truth will all be known at some time in the future.

Or you could simply answer the questions, charity.

Lady Sundancer

Posted
Earth to LadySundancer: Please explain WHY "adieu" is a hint at problems in the BofM when the use of the SAME WORD in the KJV Bible is not a hint at "problems" with the Bible.

I am truly having difficulty comprehending your point. (If you HAVE a point...)

That there are points of contention regarding the BofM I will be the first to admit. But "adieu" is NOT one of those points of contention, and cannot be, by the very nature of the translation process.

(Someone ought to do a word study and see how many times "adieu" has been used in early 19th century American literature, including novels, essays, speeches, political tracts, histories, and anything else anyone can think of. It would put the issue to rest right quick. cool.gif )

Beowulf

Beowulf,

You pinpointed the difficulty yourself when you wrote:

(Someone ought to do a word study and see how many times "adieu" has been used in early 19th century American literature, including novels, essays, speeches, political tracts, histories, and anything else anyone can think of. It would put the issue to rest right quick. cool.gif )

Isn't the Book of Mormon believed to be an ancient record? I'm open to correction on that count.

Lady Sundancer

Posted
Please explain WHY "adieu" is a hint at problems in the BofM when the use of the SAME WORD in the KJV Bible is not a hint at "problems" with the Bible.

It all comes down to how you believe Joseph "translated" the plates. If you believe virtually every contemporary account, then you believe the translation was accomplished simply by reading English words off magical translators. Joseph didn't actually translate the way a traditional translation happens. He didn't know both languages. In fact, Joseph didn't really do any translating at all; God did. God (or "the power of God") put the English words on the magic rocks; all Joseph did was read them.

A translation done by God would be a perfect translation. It would be 100% consistent. There would be no conspicuously out of place words. The translation of the Bible was not done by God, so it's expected that there would be some inconsistencies and odd word choices. So a word that might be out of place in the bible does not create the same problem that such a word would create in the BoM.

Posted
The critics of "adieu" in the Book of Mormon have always been oddly silent about the use of the same word in the Bible.

Hmmm....

Regards,

Six

Six,

Can we get some evidence of your comment on the table here? Where in the Bible (chapter/verse) is the word "adieu" used?

Lady Sundancer

Posted
Please explain WHY "adieu" is a hint at problems in the BofM when the use of the SAME WORD in the KJV Bible is not a hint at "problems" with the Bible.

It all comes down to how you believe Joseph "translated" the plates. If you believe virtually every contemporary account, then you believe the translation was accomplished simply by reading English words off magical translators. Joseph didn't actually translate the way a traditional translation happens. He didn't know both languages. In fact, Joseph didn't really do any translating at all; God did. God (or "the power of God") put the English words on the magic rocks; all Joseph did was read them.

A translation done by God would be a perfect translation. It would be 100% consistent. There would be no conspicuously out of place words. The translation of the Bible was not done by God, so it's expected that there would be some inconsistencies and odd word choices. So a word that might be out of place in the bible does not create the same problem that such a word would create in the BoM.

MC,

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the Book of Mormon is translated correctly because God did the translating and that the Bible is not translated correctly because humans did the translating?

Lady Sundancer

Posted
MC,

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the Book of Mormon is translated correctly because God did the translating and that the Bible is not translated correctly because humans did the translating?

Lady Sundancer

Well, since there were never any gold plates to begin with, I can't really say that the BoM is translated correctly or incorrectly. What I'm saying is that all contemporary accounts regarding the origin of the BoM depict a fairly straightforward, visual process. God put the words on a stone; Joseph read them to a scribe.

The problem is that Mormons can't believe these accounts. If God put the words on a stone for Joseph to read, why were there 3000 grammatical errors in the BoM? If God put the words on a stone for Joseph to read, why are the quoted sections of Isaiah virtually identical to the KJV translation? Why such out of place words like "adieu"?

The answer for Mormons is to completely disregard contemporary accounts of the translation process and claim that the process is completely unknown and mysterious. They take the position that we don't really know how the BoM was translated, so we can't have any expectations of what the text should contain.

Posted
Please explain WHY "adieu" is a hint at problems in the BofM when the use of the SAME WORD in the KJV Bible is not a hint at "problems" with the Bible.

It all comes down to how you believe Joseph "translated" the plates. If you believe virtually every contemporary account, then you believe the translation was accomplished simply by reading English words off magical translators. Joseph didn't actually translate the way a traditional translation happens. He didn't know both languages. In fact, Joseph didn't really do any translating at all; God did. God (or "the power of God") put the English words on the magic rocks; all Joseph did was read them.

A translation done by God would be a perfect translation. It would be 100% consistent. There would be no conspicuously out of place words. The translation of the Bible was not done by God, so it's expected that there would be some inconsistencies and odd word choices. So a word that might be out of place in the bible does not create the same problem that such a word would create in the BoM.

That's a perfectly legitimate arguement against any words being out of place, however you also need a solid arguement as to why the word "adiue" in particular is out of place.

Posted
Six,

I can't even believe you used that as a defense in this argument! What were you thinking? One of the challenges that critics of the Book of Mormon make is that it is a mixture of various things that includes copy from the KJV Bible! Do you see where your defense goes wrong?

Lady Sundancer

Six: Well for starters, it is an argument that points out the hypocrisy of critics using "adieu" in the Book of Mormon. They argue that the word is an obvious anachronism and proof that Joseph was using a non-English word. Yet, at least one translation of the Bible uses the word.

Second, the use of the word "adieu" does not appear in the KJV. Hence there can be non of the usual shrill claims of borrowing or plagiarism. The English Bible translation that uses "adieu" was translated by a contemporary of Joseph Smith...but after the Book of Mormon had been published.

What "adieu" in the Bible proves is that the word is perfectly acceptable for use in an English translation. My point is perfectly reasonable.

The fact that critics shy away from acknowledging the fact that "adieu" appears in an English translation of the Bible is (in my opinion) quite telling.

Regards,

Six

Posted
Earth to LadySundancer: Please explain WHY "adieu" is a hint at problems in the BofM when the use of the SAME WORD in the KJV Bible is not a hint at "problems" with the Bible.

I am truly having difficulty comprehending your point. (If you HAVE a point...)

That there are points of contention regarding the BofM I will be the first to admit. But "adieu" is NOT one of those points of contention, and cannot be, by the very nature of the translation process.

(Someone ought to do a word study and see how many times "adieu" has been used in early 19th century American literature, including novels, essays, speeches, political tracts, histories, and anything else anyone can think of. It would put the issue to rest right quick.  cool.gif )

Beowulf

1828 Webster's Dictionary

ADIEU', Adu'.

Farewell; an expression of kind wishes at the parting of friends.

ADIEU', n. A farewell, or commendation to the care of God; as an everlasting adieu.

Some examples of the use of "adieu" from writers contemporary with Joseph Smith:

Solomon Spalding, "Manuscript Found"

1. "This was done on both sides, with mutual expressions of the most ardent and sincere friendship and the most earnest wishes and prayers for future prosperity and happiness. Having taken our final adieu, I observed honest Crito shedding tears very plentifully. 'You seem to be affected,' said I. 'God bless Your Honor,' said he, 'when I think how kind and generous these poor Deliwans have been to us, I cannot help feeling an affection and friendship for them.'"

2. "Having acquired that renown and glory which are beyond the reach of envy and which aspiring ambition would despair of attaining, at the age of eighty, he bid an affectionate adieu to two empires and left them to lament in tears his exit. "

3. "He spent but a few moments with Lamesa, in which they exchanged mutual congratulations and expressions of the most tender both possessed hearts which were and sincere affection

[sic]. She conjured him to spare the life of her father and brother and not to expose his own life any farther than his honor and the interest of his country required. 'I shall cheerfully" says he, "comply with every request which will promote your happiness.' He embraced her and bid her adieu."

Fennimore Cooper "The Last of the Mohicans"

"She frankly gave him her hand, though her lip quivered, and her cheeks gradually became of ashly palness. 'In every fortune, I know you will be an ornament and honor to your sex. Alice, adieu' -- his voice changed from admiration to tenderness -- 'adieu, Alice; we shall soon meet again; as conquerors, I trust, and amid rejoicings'"!

Nathaniel Hawthorne "The Blithedale Romance"

"'I have done with it; and Blithedale must find another woman to superintend the laundry, and you, Mr. Coverdale, another nurse to make your gruel, the next time you fall ill. It was, indeed, a foolish dream! Yet it gave us some pleasant summer days, and bright hopes, while they lasted. It can do no more; nor will it avail us to shed tears over a broken bubble. Here is my hand! Adieu!'"

Nathaniel Hawthorne "The House of Seven Gables"

"On the second morning thereafter, Phoebe might have been seen, in her straw bonnet, with a shawl on one arm and a little carpet-bag on the other, bidding adieu to Hepzibah and Cousin Clifford. She was to take a seat in the next train of cars, which would transport her to within half a dozen miles of her country village."

Mark Twain, "Innocents Abroad"

"The Emperor--'Oh, d--n the Address!--read it to the police.

Chamberlain, take these people over to my brother, the Grand Duke's, and give them a square meal. Adieu! I am happy--I am gratified--I am delighted--I am bored. Adieu, adieu--vamos the ranch!"

Jane Austen "Emma"

"Compressed into the very lowest vacant corner were these words--"I had not a spare moment on Tuesday, as you know, for Miss Woodhouse's beautiful little friend. Pray make my excuses and adieus to her." This, Emma could not doubt, was all for herself."

Charlotte Bronte, "Shirley"

"He would have taken Caroline's hand and joined it in the same clasp in which he held Shirley's, but somehow it was not ready for him; she had withdrawn a few steps apart: her answer to Moore's adieu was only a slight bend of the head, and a gentle, serious smile. He sought no more cordial token: again he said 'Farewell!' and quitted them both."

Charles ****ens, "Oliver Twist"

"With many adieus and good wishes, Mr. Fagin went his way. Noah Claypole, bespeaking his good lady's attention, proceeded to enlighten her relative to the arrangement he had made, with all that haughtiness and air of superiority, becoming, not only a member of the sterner sex, but a gentleman who appreciated the dignity of a special appointment on the kinchin lay, in London and its vicinity."

Charles ****ens, "Martin Chuzzlewit"

In truth, the new pupil, not at all disconcerted by the honour of having Miss Mercy Pecksniff on his arm, or by the affectionate adieux of that young lady, approached as Mr. Pinch spoke, followed by Miss Charity and Mr. Pecksniff.

Washington Irving, "The Adventures of Captain Bonneville"

"As the bull boat was now nearly worn out, and altogether unfit

for the broader and more turbulent stream of the Missouri, it was

given up, and a canoe of cottonwood, about twenty feet long,

fabricated by the Blackfeet, was purchased to supply its place.

In this Wyeth hoisted his sail, and bidding adieu to the

hospitable superintendent of Fort Union, turned his prow to the

east, and set off down the Missouri."

Edgar Allen Poe, "The Assignation"

"What reason could there have been for the low - the singularly low tone of those unmeaning words which the lady uttered hurriedly in bidding him adieu? 'Thou hast conquered,' she said, or the murmurs of the water deceived me; 'thou hast conquered - one hour after sunrise - we shall meet - so let it be !'"

Herman Melville, "Moby ****"

"So disordered, self-condemning in his look, that had there been policemen in those days, Jonah, on the mere suspicion of something wrong, had been arrested ere he touched a deck. How plainly he's a fugitive! no baggage, not a hat-box, valise, or carpet-bag,- no friends accompany him to the wharf with their adieux."

Sir Walter Scott, "The Talisman"

"'Wild work, Sir Kenneth,' replied De Vaux, shrugging his shoulders, as one who would avoid a perilous or unpleasing topic --'a mad world, sir. I must now bid you adieu, having presently to return to the King's pavilion.'" [De Vaux was an English nobleman, not a Frenchie]

Harriet Beecher Stowe, "Uncle Tom's Cabin"

"Call Bruno in there," she added. "Shut the door on him, poor beast! He mustn't go with me!"

"A few last words and tears, a few simple adieus and blessings, and clasping her wondering and affrighted child in her arms, she glided noiselessly away."

Louisa May Alcott, "Little Women"

"Meg says my punchtuation and spelling are disgraceful and I am mortyfied but dear me I have so many things to do, I can't stop. Adieu, I send heaps of love to Papa. Your affectionate

daughter . .."

Bret Harte, "Under the Eaves"

"He grasped Breeze's hand warmly and slipped out of the door softly. For an instant Mr. Breeze felt inclined to follow him into the room and make a kinder adieu to the pair, but the reflection that he might embarrass the wife, who, it would seem, had purposely avoided accompanying her husband when he entered, withheld him."

William Makepeace Thackery, "The Notch on the Ax"

"Mr. Pinto, then, taking a gray

receipt stamp out of his blue leather pocketbook, fastened it on to

the paper by the usual process; and the hand then wrote across the

receipt stamp, went across the table and shook hands with Pinto,

and then, as if waving him an adieu, vanished in the direction of

the ceiling."

John Keats, "Epistle to my Brother George"

"Fair world, adieu!

Thy dales, and hills, are fading from my view:

Swiftly I mount, upon wide spreading pinions,

Far from the narrow bound of thy dominions."

Anthony Trollope, "Barchester Towers"

"There was no standing for this, for Mr Slope was now looking at him, and so was the bishop, and so was the archdeacon, who had completed his adieux on that side of the room. Mr Harding therefore got up also, and putting out his hand to Mrs Proudie, said: 'If you will come to St Cuthbert's some Sunday, I will preach you a sermon on the subject.'"

Elizabeth Barrett Browning, "Elizabeth Leigh"

"Poets become such,

Through scorning nothing. You decry them for

The good of beauty, sung and taught by them,

While they respect your practical partial good

As being a part of beauty's self. Adieu!

When God helps all the workers for his world,

The singers shall have help of Him, not last."

Jules Verne, "Around the World in Eighty Days"

"Benares was Sir Francis Cromarty's destination, the troops he was rejoining being encamped some miles northward of the city. He bade adieu to Phileas Fogg, wishing him all success, and expressing the hope that he would come that way again in a less original but more profitable fashion."

Jules Verne, "Journey to the Center of the Earth"

"At six o'clock our preparations were over. M. Fridrikssen shook hands with us. My uncle thanked him heartily for his extreme kindness. I constructed a few fine Latin sentences to express my cordial farewell. Then we bestrode our steeds and with his last adieu M.Fridrikssen treated me to a line of Virgil eminently applicable tosuch uncertain wanderers as we were likely to be..."

As you can readily see, "adieu" was not out of place in the English writings of Joseph Smith's era.

It was commonly used in literature and poetry, and, I imagine, in common

conversation. There is no reason to criticize its use in the Book of Mormon.

Bernard

Posted

Those are fantastic...but can you find an example of the word "adieu" used in the English translation of a foreign work? Because we're not really talking about using "adieu" the way an author of a literary work would; we're talking about using it the way a translator would. Such use will be much more difficult to find. I can't even think of a situation where "adieu" would be the best word to use when translating a foreign word for "goodbye" into English, with the possible exception of translating from French to English, or when the actual word "adieu" is used in the foreign text and is left untranslated.

What translator would use such a phrase? You might as well translate "auf wiedersehen " into "adios." Any translator that used "adios" or "au revoir" when making an English translation of Dostoevsky would be a fool. You won't find such nonsense in any English translations of Russian writers. You probably won't find it in any English translations of foreign works. Even though "adios," "au revoir," "hasta la vista" etc. have entered the lexicon of English words, their use is completely inappropriate for translation purposes.

Posted

If you look up the translation of "Shalom" (which has obvious references to God and was used by Christ himself) in Hebrew, it's cognate word that is most closely related is "Adieu". I think that is pretty telling.

Posted
Those are fantastic...but can you find an example of the word "adieu" used in the English translation of a foreign work? Because we're not really talking about using "adieu" the way an author of a literary work would; we're talking about using it the way a translator would.

Six: I can think of two examples.

The English translation of the autobiography of Josephus Flavious, the famed Jewish historian. The autobiography was translated by a respected English scholar and theologian from its ancient language into English. That translation uses the word "adieu."

The other example is the Bible itself. The Darby translation renders ancient languages into English. In this translation, the word "adieu" is used twice.

Luke 9:61

And another also said, I will follow thee, Lord, but first allow me to bid adieu to those at my house.

2 Corinthians 2:13

I had no rest in my spirit at not finding Titus my brother; but bidding them adieu, I came away to Macedonia.

There. Two example of English theologian/scholars using the word "adieu" in an English translation from an ancient language.

Not only that, note in the Bible verses, the whole notion of "bidding" someone farwell...very similar to the Book of Mormon usage.

Jacob 7:27 And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.

Regards,

Six

Posted

Sundancer, I will make a trade with you. Way up in the thread I asked you several times, what "respects" the Church would be stronger in if there had been no polygamy. You made the statement, but you never answered my question about what you meant. You 'danced' around, but never answered that. So,here's the deal. You answer my question, that I asked first. Then I will answer your question about what 'same word' means to me.

I'm waiting.

Posted
Those are fantastic...but can you find an example of the word "adieu" used in the English translation of a foreign work?  Because we're not really talking about using "adieu" the way an author of a literary work would; we're talking about using it the way a translator would.

Let's start with the example:

Adieu is sometimes used in the translation of Japanese, actually.

There are a number of ways to say "goodbye" in Japanese, and each has a particular type of impact. In Japanese, sayounara means goodbye with the implication that you do not expect to see that person again, or that there is some finality to your parting. It is not uncommon for dramatic instances of the word sayounara to be translated into English as adieu.

A quick google for example, indicated that the official translation of the movie "Sayounara, Ginga Tetsudou 999" is "Adieu, Galaxy Express 999". Which is quite an elegant translation.

The reason? Well "goodbye" is simply a poor translation of sayounara. So is adieu a good translation? Not exactly... but it is better! Maybe the best possible translation even, as I don't think there is a good english equivelant of sayounara in this context. When used in a very dramatic context, most American English speakers interpret the word adieu to have a greater sense of finality than simply "goodbye". As Bsix said, adieu is often interpreted more along the lines of "farewell" than "goodbye". Actually, that is precisely why many translators consider "farewell" to be a simpler (and thus better) way to translate sayounara -- at least in most instances.

So, you might say that a superior translation would use "farewell" instead of adieu, right? Wrong! In the movie title I gave you, for example, the use of the comma (which is far more significant in Japanese than in English) requires a stronger accent and emphasis be placed upon the use of sayounara. "Farewell, Galaxy Express 999" lacks that sense of emotional weight and power. Adieu, on the other hand, seems to capture this better. Why? Hmmm... probably because the French produce more Romantic literature, thus the word adieu carries a stronger sense of romance in the English language than "farewell". OK, that could be completely wrong, but the point stands that adieu seems to carry a greater sense of romance. Both "farewell" and adiue could probably be spoken with the same impact, however in writing, the word adieu is more effective.

Thus, we have the translation we do for that movie title. And it is a very good one. And it is an example of why a translation might use the word adieu.

Now here's a more generalized philosophical argument:

A broader philosophical arguement is to think of translation as a two-step process. Basically, you have to gather the meaning from the original work somehow. And once you have a grasp of the "meaning" in your head, you then try to rewrite (as someone writing literature would) that meaning you now have in your head.

Thus, translation (at least good translation) is not really very different from writing literature, and if the word adieu has some valid meaning in American English literature, then it could potentially have a valid meaning in a translation of a foreign language.

OK then...

Posted
The other example is the Bible itself. The Darby translation renders ancient languages into English. In this translation, the word "adieu" is used twice.

Luke 9:61

And another also said, I will follow thee, Lord, but first allow me to bid adieu to those at my house.

Thank you for pointing that out. However, you're only making my point. There are 19 English translations of the bible available at BibleGateway.com. Of those 19, only one--the Darby translation--uses the word "adieu." In each and every one of the other 18 translations, "goodbye," "farewell" or "I take my leave" are used. From my perspective, that makes Darby the "oddball" of the group. The Darby translation is the exception to the rule--the rule being, in this case, that you don't use "adieu" when "goodbye" will suffice.

A quick google for example, indicated that the official translation of the movie "Sayonara, Ginga Tetsudou 999" is "Adieu, Galaxy Express 999". Which is quite an elegant translation.

Fine. If your intention was to dress up the language, and make it seem more "sophisticated," then I can see using adieu. In fact, I think that's exactly what Joseph Smith was intending. Whether or not such editorializing and "dressing up" is appriopriate when translating an ancient text is debatable. Picking "adieu" over "farewell" for the title of an anime movie to give it an air of sophistication is one thing; using adieu for scripture is another. As you can see from my response above, 18 out of 19 scripture translators go with farewell.

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