1st/2nd century church

[juliann]

Christ is the head of the church. The church is the bride. Christ says the gates of hell will not prevail against the church--in other words, it won't die. These are all NT principles. If a great apostasy occurs, and the church is cut off from Christ, this seems to me to be a failure. This is not a polemical statement, its an accurate characterization.

Actually, for the gates of hell (hades) to have any meaning at all you have to be behind them. That means you are dead. The gates of hell do not hold back the dead, however...they are resurrected. So was Christ's church.

I don't see how anyone could read something like John 14 and not feel the promises of Christ are hollow indeed if in fact His church fell into complete apostasy--I know you could say that John 14 could be only about individual believers, but if removing the CHurch and all her authority to teach the truth--if that isn't leaving the individual as an orphan it seems mighty close to me. 

Then why did this happen repeatedly in the OT? People fall away. God cannot prevent that without interfering with free will. Not one person has explained where everybody went before the councils. Where were these leaders teaching the truth?

  Which view is more plausible (particularly in light of what God has revealed about His character).  That God would nurture the Church so that the its teaching in this foundational area moves in the right direction?  Or that God would allow the deception to win?  If you choose the second option, watch out LDS because if God allowed deception to win once, there's no cause for the certainty that it won't happen again. 

Your first problem is that the NT itself predicts a falling away. Next, you will need to answer why God allowed Israel to fail time and time again...even to the point of sending them into the Diaspora. This gets back to the almost Marcion-esque treatment of the OT that is so prevalent in conventional Christianity.

One other point, please do not malign the character of the early church leaders and say that God gives us over to free will and these leaders chose deception.

Are you claiming that you know all truth and have no "deception" in your life? For those who did not have leaders...are they choosing deception? Were the OT people living in "deception"? This is a logical fallacy.

[ave maria]

Your first problem is that the NT itself predicts a falling away.

It predicts a Second Coming, too. From the time of the crucifixion, people have been expecting it to come speedily.

The flaw in your reasoning is assuming that if something is foretold in the New Testament, it has already taken place.

[juliann]

The flaw in your reasoning is assuming that if something is foretold in the New Testament, it has already taken place.

OK...so the falling away is tomorrow. It is still a falling away and it still happens!

[juliann]

And then we have that goofy Paul talking about how quickly the Galatians turned from the gospel....and how all of Asia is turned away. And never mind Revelation calling seven churches to repentence right before the lights went out. Heck, nobody thinks there are guys in the sky on white horses anyway.

[BCSpace]

The flaw in your reasoning is assuming that if something is foretold in the New Testament, it has already taken place. 

OK...so the falling away is tomorrow. It is still a falling away and it still happens!

And as the Bible says, all the saints were to be overcome. Ooops! There goes the Catholic church.............if it has not already taken place.

The thing with Hermas though is that the angel said the falling away was soon to take place, that the original building was almost finished, and that the church to come after would inferior regarding salvation. Ooops! There goes the Catholic church again seeing as how either 1) it existed at the time OR 2) history shows that the Catholic church came soon after the proto-Catholic one.

[johnny]

BCSpace  writes,

And as the Bible says, all the saints were to be overcome. Ooops! There goes the Catholic church.............if it has not already taken place.

The Bible does not say "all the saints were to be overcome" ... how silly ... the saints that were overcome were the firstfruits, 144,000 were overcome. (Rev 14:1-4),

The thing with Hermas though is that the angel said the falling away was soon to take place, that the original building was almost finished, and that the church to come after would inferior regarding salvation. Ooops!

The thing with Hermas he does not say " the church to come after would inferior" ... how silly ... Hermas third vision shows the building of the triumphant church, and the various classes of unacceptable men. The tower is the Church, and the stones of which it is built are the faithful. All the baptized are included, though they may be cast out for grave sins (1Cor 3:13-15), and can be readmitted only after penance (Matt 12:32). The book of Hermas is concerned with the Christian virtues and their exercise. It is an ethical, not a theological, work. The intention is above all to preach repentance

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07268b.htm

There goes the Catholic church again seeing as how either 1) it existed at the time OR 2) history shows that the Catholic church came soon after the proto-Catholic one.

The Catholic Church is the is the reign of Christ on earth, it is the everlasting kingdom of heaven on earth as described in Daniel's vision concerning the Son of man (Dan 7:14). It shall not pass away.

Dan 7

[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

[johnny]

juliann  writes,

I'm not sure you want to be quoting Hermas in a thread discussing baptism for the dead.

Hermas does not give any support for baptism for the dead as practiced by the LDS church.

Quote Hermas for us since Johnny seems to value the text. Tell us about the reference to baptism. For the dead.

What quote are you referring that references baptism for the dead?

Are you referring to Shepherd of Hermas, Similitudes III, 9, 16 ... if so when did they get "the seal"?

Our time on earth is the time God offers men to decide his ultimate destiny (CCC1013). Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven - through a purification or immediately, - or immediate and everlasting damnation. At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love (CCC1022).

God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. (CCC1257).

[johnny]

juliann  writes,

Actually, for the gates of hell (hades) to have any meaning at all you have to be behind them. That means you are dead. The gates of hell do not hold back the dead, however...they are resurrected. So was Christ's church.

To have meaning, is to talk about who has the keys to the gates ... Peter was given the keys and Peter's successor's continue to hold these same keys.

Then why did this happen repeatedly in the OT? People fall away.

In the OT Christ did not reign, after his resurrection he reigns through the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was given the authority.

Your first problem is that the NT itself predicts a falling away.

The "falling away" that is described in the NT best describes the LDS church. The LDS church has fallen away from the truth. The NT describe false prophets that will deceive many and that many will follow these false prophets. False prophets can come in sheep's clothing.

[johnny]

juliann  writes,

And then we have that goofy Paul talking about how quickly the Galatians turned from the gospel....and how all of Asia is turned away.

Sounds like Paul is describe something similiar to the LDS church ... the LDS church has turned away from the truth.

[johnny]

juliann  writes,

I agree. Furthermore, none of these writers agree with each other with exactness. Scholarship does not require that you take on a writer whole hog...nor does my theology.

I also agree that none of these writers agreee with each other with exactness ... glad the Catholic Church has apostolic tradition and divine revelation to clarify these writers.

[ave maria]

The flaw in your reasoning is assuming that if something is foretold in the New Testament, it has already taken place.

OK...so the falling away is tomorrow. It is still a falling away and it still happens!

But it has radically different implications for the LDS Church if it has not yet taken place, as the past existence of a complete and total apostasy of the early Christian church is foundational to truth claims of the same.

[ave maria]

shows that the Catholic church came soon after the proto-Catholic one.

You're assuming that the Catholic Church didn't exist until the term was applied to it, which is no more logical than assuming the LDS Church didn't exist until the term "Mormon" was applied to it.

Back to juliann's subtopic of apostasy, the foretelling of "apostasy" or a "falling away" is not excluded from non-LDS Christian tradition past or present. The error in reasoning is assuming, as Latter-day Saints do, that apostasy of necessity means "complete and total apostasy," or "falling away" means "complete and total falling away."

If one is actually interested in learning what other non-LDS Christian faiths believe on the topic, that information can be had. Otherwise, relying on uninformed assumptions can be problematic.

675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.--Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 675 (emphasis mine)

[juliann]

What quote are you referring that references baptism for the dead?

You are quoting Hermas as if it helps you (heh) and don't even know the text well enough to discuss the whole of it? Stop wasting our time.

[johnny]

juliann  writes,

You are quoting Hermas as if it helps you (heh) and don't even know the text well enough to discuss the whole of it? Stop wasting our time.

Backup your empty words ... interpet the text for all of us ... thanks ...

[juliann]

If one is actually interested in learning what other non-LDS Christian faiths believe on the topic, that information can be had. Otherwise, relying on uninformed assumptions can be problematic.

One more time...stop trying to change the topic. What you believe and how you contort scripture is utterly irrelevant to what the text says. Until you can produce contemporary evidence that your "line of succession" is real instead of making it up centuries later...you have your "falling away". That is why you so rudely refuse to provide any evidence for a line of succession. There is none.

That is why there is nothing but silence followed by squabbling ending in councils presided over by a non-Christian emperor after the apostles die.

[johnny]

juliann  writes,

Good to see you again!! I always like hearing your analysis of deification from the Catholic perspective.

The LDS perspective of deification is not supported by the Early Church Father's or the Bible ... men do not become another God like the Father.

Their is that is what is called "gods", for example Satan is called "god".

The Catholic perspective of deification is supported by the Early Church Father's and the Bible.

[ave maria]

If one is actually interested in learning what other non-LDS Christian faiths believe on the topic, that information can be had.  Otherwise, relying on uninformed assumptions can be problematic.

One more time...stop trying to change the topic. What you believe and how you contort scripture is utterly irrelevant to what the text says. Until you can produce contemporary evidence that your "line of succession" is real instead of making it up centuries later...you have your "falling away". That is why you so rudely refuse to provide any evidence for a line of succession. There is none.

That is why there is nothing but silence followed by squabbling ending in councils presided over by a non-Christian emperor after the apostles die.

You're the one changing the topic, juliann.

I suggest you stop doing it and blaming others for responding to it when you do.

Get back on track. You've got lots to discuss regarding Brent's original post, and lots of unanswered questions that have been addressed to you.

[Zakuska]

QUOTE 

But I, shameless as I yet was, asked her, "Is repentance possible for all those stones which have been cast away and did not fit into the building of the tower, and will they yet have a place in this tower? ""Repentance," said she, "is yet possible, but in this tower they cannot find a suitable place. But in another and much inferior place they will be laid, and that, too, only when they have been tortured and completed the days of their sins. And on this account will they be transferred, because they have partaken of the righteous Word. And then only will they be removed from their punishments when the thought of repenting of the evil deeds which they have done has come into their hearts. But if it does not come into their hearts, they will not be saved, on account of the hardness of their heart." (Hermas Vision 3:7) 

Actualy Johnny this sounds like LDS teaching to me.

There isn't place found for them in the Celestial Kingdom but they are assigned a place in a lesser Glory Terestial.

[johnny]

juliann  writes,

you have your "falling away".

The LDS "falling away" is clearly documented by the Bible.

That is why you so rudely refuse to provide any evidence for a line of succession. There is none.

The succession and authority of the Bishop of Rome's is evidence.

That is why there is nothing but silence followed by squabbling ending in councils presided over by a non-Christian emperor after the apostles die.

After the apostles the keys of the apostles were transferred to the bishops.

[ave maria]

Until you can produce contemporary evidence that your "line of succession" is real instead of making it up centuries later...you have your "falling away

No, that does not necessarily logically follow.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

Actualy Johnny this sounds like LDS teaching to me.

Do you understand what the tower is ... if so could you explain?

There isn't place found for them in the Celestial Kingdom but they are assigned a place in a lesser Glory Terestial.

This lesser place is called purgatory by Catholics and it occurs prior to the Last Judgment

[Zakuska]

count,

Christ is the head of the church. The church is the bride. Christ says the gates of hell will not prevail against the church--in other words, it won't die. These are all NT principles. If a great apostasy occurs, and the church is cut off from Christ, this seems to me to be a failure. This is not a polemical statement, its an accurate characterization.

This is wrong.

1 Cor. 15: 36

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

The Church had to die on the earrth for it to be ressurected 3 "days" later.

[Zakuska]

Of course I understand what the Tower is Johhny. Its made up of the stones who have been hewn without hands, had all their rough edges chipped of and fit into the tower. Thus Christ is cheif corner stone. The Apostles the foundation and those who over come built atop of them... it is the church of God, the temple of God. Paul talks all about it all over the place.

But there are some stones who ara little to hard, won't have their rough edges hewn and thus they are cast from the tower. Until they can be further refined. However they go to an Infereior Glory.

There are also two tower spoken of as well.

[johnny]

Zakuska  writes,

The Church had to die on the earrth for it to be ressurected 3 "days" later.

The Church was manifested on the day of Pentecost.

Until they can be further refined. However they go to an Infereior Glory.

After the go to an inferior glory they are then transferred to the tower ... in other words they enter the celistial Kingdom and live forever with their heavenly Father.

In LDS theology after final judgment their are three different kingdoms.

There are also two tower spoken of as well.

What are these two towers?

[Zakuska]

Johhny Don't insult everyones inteligence.

2 Thes. 2: 3

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that cman of dsin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Dan. 7: 22

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan. 7: 25

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan. 7: 27

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an ceverlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

prospered.

The next verse...

Dan 8

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