What if you want the church to be true,

[ur1drfl2]

from the Pickle jar: I'm wondering why you feel there is such a gap between non-Mormons and ex-Mormons. Non-Mormons may not be ex-Mormons, but ex-Mormons are definitely non-Mormons. What if your neighbors move away? Would you ever lose track of them?

Some neighbors have moved away. I only lose track of them if they discontinue correspondence. But they don't because I'm so adorable! Really!! I have an ex-Mo friend from 12 years ago that I still keep in touch with. And when she asks me to put someone in my prayers, she knows I will do it!

And you base this observation on your own experience, right? My experience is different. Which is more valid? Both? Neither? As a matter of my own experience, I've seen relatively few active LDS pressing forward in any quest for oneness with God. Mostly what I see is people putting one foot in front of the other, making it through this life one day at a time, trying their best to raise their families the way they feel is most productive. That may include church, Little League, 4-H, babysitting class, hunter safety school, and family movie night. Their ex-Mormon neighbor probably has the same schedule. He just attends church at a different address.

Yes. I base this wholly on my own experience. And I will tell you that many ex-Mo

[Tchild2]

Ur1drfl2 wrote:

Sure these ex-Mormons' lives fill up with things that keep them busy, many of these things are good, but it seems to me that they lose their spiritual drive/focus. They simply exist and go through the routines of everyday life, not pressing forward any longer in that quest for oneness with God. And I've wondered if leaving the Church makes them want to erase God and their duty to Him entirely from their lives? Maybe you or some of the ex-Mormons on this board could answer this question for me.

I can say that the spiritual quest is what lead me away from Mormonism and its more rigid orthodoxy. I feel that I have a deep spiritual drive and desire to know God, but that Mormonism for me seemed to focus on appearances and less on personal integrity. That isn't to say that there aren't many ethical and honest LDS adherants, but rather, within LDS culture there is a deep seated judgemental attitude based on outward observances and appearances. perhaps, I just knew too many LDS persons that were willing to lie to others to keep up appearances rather than to be true to who they were regardless of the consequences.

What many Mormons see from ex-members in many cases, is a re-evaluation of what truly represents an inner morality, and what is cultural and super-imposed by society or religion that is really amoral, but that is dictated by the religion to be moral in the context of its rules, rituals and dogma. Some good examples of this are the WoW mandates, R-rated movie watching or Sabbath observance. To a believer, dismissal of these religious based moral codes by ex-members seems to reflect a new "worldly" attitude that to the believer reflects a "laziness" or desire to sin. In reality, to the Ex, he/she has merely disgarded these religious based rules as not a necessary component to true spirituality.

Drinking alcohol (responsibly and in moderation), coffee, or waterskiing on Sunday is no more a sin to me than an LDS member wearing a blue or white shirt to work. It is irrelevant to one's spiritual progress. Religion emphasizes obedience rather than personal integrity in interpreting spiritual matters in many cases.

One consequence of questioning Mormonism for many ex-members is a loss of the Mormon and Christian cosmology. The nature of God, Jesus Christ, prophets and the plan of salvation are questioned and ultimately re-interpreted or rejected as a sort of symbol set of myth derived originally from the Christian Cosmology. God may exist, Jesus may have existed, but how religions interpret the supernatural is no longer relevant. This position is most difficult to express as it must be experienced to be understood. Nevertheless, once it occurs, the ex-member must re-evaluate every aspect of their lives, their beliefs (if any exist) and even their very purpose. This can take some time and some experimentation in areas that members may see as destructive or sinful. One's "duty to God" as you put it, no longer falls in the same camp as it does for a member. One's duty is to be true to oneself, despite the societal and religious repurcussions, and despite any clear cut external answers or truth to live by.

You are to be commended for your good achievements and your devotion to family, but these alone do not open the door to the celestial kingdom. I guess in the end you must ask yourself what do you really want from this mortal experience, the greatest test of your eternal life?

This is exactly the sentiment that holds no power or sway for an ex-member as they simply do not believe that God (if God exists) operates in such a fashion as to make an eternal test of this life, or that a God of love would create such an arbitrary and rigged "test" to begin with.

Just some thoughts, and a major thread derailer I am sure.

[1dc]

You're limiting "families," as I understand you, to spouses and children--not parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, or siblings, or anything that would constitute the extended family.

Certainly not . . many family units are blends of different familial relationships . . always have been, too . . .

And obviously an extended family is just that . . people make many decisions in life which are influenced for good or bad by such relationship, and in both directions . . not to mention mentors who are not blood related.

I doubt there's a person on this board with LDS ancestors who doesn't have multiple examples of ancestors who converted from one faith to another, where there wasn't disappointment and hurt in the family as a result.

And I'd doubt that anyone has no members who made life changes which were concerns but which have turned out well for the families in spite of the concerns. Which is ultimately why it is particularly interesting how the LDS Church includes a discussion of consent as a part of the decision where it is reasonable to do so . . explicitly in certain circumstances and as a course of events raised by the individual and those involved in their lives as they study and ponder such questions for themselves.

[backontrack]

Tchild2 wrote:

Drinking alcohol (responsibly and in moderation), coffee, or waterskiing on Sunday is no more a sin to me than an LDS member wearing a blue or white shirt to work. It is irrelevant to one's spiritual progress. Religion emphasizes obedience rather than personal integrity in interpreting spiritual matters in many cases.

backontrack: I'm interested in what you are referring to when you say "spiritual progress". What variety/species of spiritual progress do you have access to that would be unique to someone who sheds the need or desire to obey or act in adherence to the gospel principles and practices of the LDS church?

Not drinking alcohol and coffee and keeping the Sabbath day holy are outward evidences that one is willing to conform to what one believes to be God's will. Obedience to God is, or at least can reasonably be said to be, connected with spiritual connectedness with the divine as one is keeping commandments. Of course that is on the assumption that the commandments are from God and not of man.

Also, it sounds like you are saying that obedience and personal integrity are somehow at odds in interpreting spiritual matters in many cases. Do you have some specific data to back up this assertion and could you provide some examples of where this is the case? I would assume that you are referring to instances when obedience is not convenient to one's personal desires and wants which may be in opposition to gospel principles and practices.

It is interesting to note that there seems to be a tendency towards experimentation with barriers and restraints as one becomes heavily involved in doubt and questioning in regards to things mormon. At least this has been my personal experience as I've traveled up and down the road of doubt and skepticism over a period of years. Redman seems to accept the possibility that there may be gray areas to be experimented with in his current thinking when he says in regards to things that bother him at this point in time, "Moral issues such as guilt tripping young boys over masturbation..."

It would be interesting to know whether or not he would have felt this way or made this comment previous to his heavy involvement in doubt and questioning the truth claims of the LDS church. Is it possible that our minds can be darkened and that in a scriptural sense we can't see the sun at noonday? Something to consider and at least entertain the possibility of occuring.

backontrack

[Tchild2]

BackonTrack wrote:

backontrack: I'm interested in what you are referring to when you say "spiritual progress". What variety/species of spiritual progress do you have access to that would be unique to someone who sheds the need or desire to obey or act in adherence to the gospel principles and practices of the LDS church?

For myself, "spiritual progress", is nothing more than learning to love others (and oneself) unconditionally and to let go of judging others (or anything) based on appearances. This progress is not dependant on one's adherance to religious based morals. Religions do, and have aligned themselves with certain moral principals which work very well for society and the individual, but they can be lived just fine without the religion also and they should not be considered the domain of the religion soley.

Not drinking alcohol and coffee and keeping the Sabbath day holy are outward evidences that one is willing to conform to what one believes to be God's will. Obedience to God is, or at least can reasonably be said to be, connected with spiritual connectedness with the divine as one is keeping commandments. Of course that is on the assumption that the commandments are from God and not of man.

[Samwise]

Sure these ex-Mormons' lives fill up with things that keep them busy, many of these things are good, but it seems to me that they lose their spiritual drive/focus.

[asbestosman]

                I made these assumptions because REDMAN has been taught the gospel.  Once you know these things, you never forget them, even if you choose not to believe in them or act upon this knowledge.  Again, I was not speaking of non-Mormons-- only those who have once had a knowledge of the truth and turned from it.  And REDMAN, if PICKLE'S missive reflects your true feelings, you are farther gone than you think you are.

That's an interesting point. I'm reminded of a scripture

And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.

I don't wish to emphasize the sin part. It's not my place to judge redman. I do, however, think it's emportant to beware that it is more difficult to come back to the church after leaing it than it is to keep struggling with it.

Maybe I should've used more fire and brimstone. The choice to leave is a serious one. I guess if one has already made up his mind, then the rest of my advice still applies. Don't keep reinforcing the idea that the church isn't true. Don't burn your bridges.

I'm beginning to wonder why redman came here to tell us about his experience? Did he expect faithful LDS members to say, "oh sure. No problem. All roads lead to Zion?" Did he wish to prove to hmself that Mormons are judgmental? Did he want to tell Mormons that we're evil for breaking up his family? Is he just venting? Or, as I hope, does he still have a spark of hope within, even if faith has mostly died? There are questions only he can answer, but if he finds the pickle is to his taste, his situation is much more serious than I realized.

Have you ever watched a movie or a TV show. Maybe you're watching it for the second or 20th time. There's a part where danger is lurking around a corner, and you want to yell at the screen so that character is made aware of the danger. But you don't do anything because you realize there's nothing you can do. I kind of feel that way.

If you're journey is going to be hard, don't make it harder than it needs to be.

I really don't like it when members demonize those who leave the church. I think it is sometimes hypocritical when members demonize defectors but praise those who join. How do we know the hearts of those who leave? Nevertheless, I think it is important for us to raise a voice of warning to those who are about to leave.

Redman, I'm not saying you should put all your doubts on the shelf indefinitely. Haven't you learned something from people here who have been in your kind of situation? Some have left and some have gained renewed faith. If you have that spark of hope, you can see it is possible. If the time comes that all you aren't learning anything new from those who have had similar struggles, then do what you judge best. We must do our best with what we've got.

I'm trying to reason without guilt-trips, manipulation, or demonizing redman. Honestly, if he were my neighbor, I wouldn't shun him (as long as he doesn't attack the church) and I wouldn't use friendship as means to reconversion. I know the journey through life is tough. I'll accept help from anyone, even an exmormon.

I wonder, what makes the redman red?

[Abulafia]

Sure these ex-Mormons' lives fill up with things that keep them busy, many of these things are good, but it seems to me that they lose their spiritual drive/focus.

[randyc]

I hope you can simple suspend your doubts and live your live in full compliance with your covenants so that you can get the measure of peace you seek.

This seems to be the attitude of many on here. Basically this attitude boils down to "well, you don't believe it's true, but you should be gullible and just believe what you "know" (even though you don't)." Yes, that's it, be gullible. What agreat idea. Let's all just believe things because we used to.

Faith and belief is a choice.  When my kids would tell me (in fits of anger) that they didnt' believe this doctrine or another, I would always point out that for centuries cultured and educated people believed the world was flat.  Didn't make that true, but people really believed it and tortured and disdained others who didn't believe it.

And this supports your point how? It seems to go the other way. This has nothing to do with belief being a choice. This simply shows that someitmes people believe things that are not true. I could say something like "for years cultured and educated people on the FAIR boards believed that Joseph Smith was a prophets. Didn't make it true, but they really believed it." How is this relevant to the discussion?

Belief is not a choice.

And in case Charity wants to argue with that, belief is not the same thing as gathering evidence. It is the interpretation of that evidence.

[randyc]

Sure these ex-Mormons' lives fill up with things that keep them busy, many of these things are good, but it seems to me that they lose their spiritual drive/focus. They simply exist and go through the routines of everyday life, not pressing forward any longer in that quest for oneness with God. And I've wondered if leaving the Church makes them want to erase God and their duty to Him entirely from their lives? Maybe you or some of the ex-Mormons on this board could answer this question for me.

Wow. Maybe this is best understood by your words "many of these things are good". I don't know why you think that others would agree with your idea of what is good. Many ex-Mormons still believe in God and follow their God devoutly (many of them find joy in this, as I did). Many do not believe in God and, of course, can not say they have any duty to him (me a little later). Of course those ones have no spiritual drive/focus. However, I have never noticed a tendency for theist ex-Mormons to be less devoted spiritually than others. I don't know how you could measure this objectively, and I am pretty sure that it would be inappropriate for any of us to say that our small-scale personal experience with ex-Mormons (even ourselves) is representative of the overall trend.

[Pokatator]

Hi Redman

I've read all 13 pages twice tonight. You sound so much like I do. I don't have any answers or advice for you I think I have the same questions you have. I wrote the following quote a few days ago in a thread about how many times you should try Moroni's promise or challenge, it fits into my feeling here on this thread.

I read this thread and with every post I tried to imagine that they were responding to me. It has overwhelmed me to a degree, because I think we are in the same spot. I am a good person, a worthy person, I live the principles not perfectly but quite well, yet I can't get past many of the same things you have mentioned. I don't plan on living any different whether in the church or out, but in the church I feel I am living a lie, I have felt that most of my life. Most of the TBM advice is just over and over again, stay in there, go thru the motions, try this, try that, really I have and I am tired. I really don't believe that Moroni's promise is real, but I do think people can fool themselves. I feel like I am being told like Dorothy to just click my Mormon ruby slippers together and keep repeating there's no place like home, do it until something happens, forever if need be, don't try anything else just keep clicking.

I liked Boniface's advice of looking at other churches, I have been doing that a little in the last couple of years. Guess what?, there are some really happy people out there. I'm also reading more of the Bible than I ever have, I know Mormon's claim it is one of the Standard Works, but I think it is highly neglected, at least I have. It is helping too, I feel more promise praying over it than I do the BofM. Maybe it seems newer to me, I actually know the BofM very well and the Bible little.

Hang in there with the thread, redman, I'll be watching this thread because, I am curious what everyone thinks of you, just like I wonder what they think of me.

With Love in Christ,

Randy

Wow, How many times do you try Moroni's promise?

I remember being a child of 5-6 years sitting in church and watching child after child go to the podium and bare their testimony. "I know this church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, I love my mommy and daddy, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen". This or some short rendition of it. I remember asking myself, "How do they know that? I don't know that! How did they get that? Why don't I have it? Why am I different? How do I get what they have? I want this no matter what!". That was my thought process.

I was told to pray, I was praying. I was told to read the BofM and pray about it just like Joseph Smith did, I did. I even went several times to a grove of trees on my grandfathers ranch and tried that. I had read the BofM 3 times before I was 8 years old. I avoided getting baptized because I didn't know what all these other kids knew. I was caught up with, at 11 years old to get baptized, I was in a split family in a way, between staying with my parents during my school months and on my grandparents farm the summers months. My birthday was during the summer so I got overlooked at 8 for baptizm. At eleven I got caught and I had to take the Missionary Discussions from my Stake Missionaries to get baptized. I studied with zeal and asked a thousand questions. At that point in my life I had read the BofM at least 8 times, fasting and praying all the time. I had read the D&C, PofGP, and JST, I had a "Big Indian" writing tablet that I literally had a hundred or more questions I was trying to get answers to. The missionaries really couldn't answer but a few. I was forced to go to my baptizism interview with my Bishop. I answered his questions, and he said, I was ready to get baptized. I told him I didn't have a true testimony, that I didn't have what all those other kids in the church have, and that I had some questions. He said, "Lets answer those questions", I gave him the first one and in the discussion he got so mad he insulted me and my family and stated, "You will be baptized on Saturday, and you will stop all this questioning and quit being a disappointment and an embarassment to the church and your family." He said, "You need to put your boots on like a man and do this thing, your problem is, you think too much!!"

With the Bishop and my family's coersion I was baptized that Saturday. It's been 42 years since I have been baptized, I still do not have what those kids had as children. I have been faithful in every way I can just like many on this board have said to be.

I have repeated many times the Moroni challenge, to no avail. I came to the conclusion at 12 years old, that those kids didn't know anything at all. They were just trying to please mommy and daddy and the church authorities. They were doing everything just like the advice on this board, "go thru the motions, and the "burning in the bosom, and Moromi's promise will be fulfilled". I think it is more of the "brainwashing" that the church gets criticized for.

Is the advice given here, "to stay the course", is it good for everyone? If I was born into the Moslem faith, just like I was the Mormon faith, should I stay the course all my life, go thru the motions to the end, perservere for a lifetime without the "promise" being fulfilled, over look doubts and questions forever?

I think in the Moslem case many of you would call it brainwashing, conditioning, social and cultural pressure and then just say it wasn't in the cards in the pre-existence for that Moslem to get the truth.

I think if Moroni's challenge is to be true, it would come the first time. I am feeling I have lived 53 years of a delusion that the challenge is real. And with that I expect many to tell me, just like I have beat myself for up all my life, that I wasn't sincere enough, I didn't read enough, I didn't pray enough, I didn't fast enough, I'm just not worthy enough, but just keep on keeping on. Well I have done enough, I have waited long enough, and I still have my "Big Indian" tablet full of questions. Some have been answered, some not, some have been answered by Mormon apologetic sources and some have been answered by so called "anti-Mormon" sources. But this is head knowledge, I want spiritual confirmation. The spiritual confirmation I have been getting is that there are elements of truth in Mormon religion but most of it is not truth. I have been getting this confirmation for a long time and ignoring it, I have been "staying the course" and just hanging in there, going thru the motions.

Change is coming,

Amen

[redman]

Hi Redman

I've read all 13 pages twice tonight.  You sound so much like I do.  I don't have any answers or advice for you I think I have the same questions you have.  I wrote the following quote a few days ago in a thread about how many times you should try Moroni's promise or challenge, it fits into my feeling here on this thread. 

I read this thread and with every post I tried to imagine that they were responding to me.  It has overwhelmed me to a degree, because I think we are in the same spot.  I am a good person, a worthy person, I live the principles not perfectly but quite well, yet I can't get past many of the same things you have mentioned.  I don't plan on living any different whether in the church or out, but in the church I feel I am living a lie, I have felt that most of my life.  Most of the TBM advice is just over and over again, stay in there, go thru the motions, try this, try that, really I have and I am tired.  I really don't believe that Moroni's promise is real, but I do think people can fool themselves.  I feel like I am being told like Dorothy to just click my Mormon ruby slippers together and keep repeating there's no place like home, do it until something happens, forever if need be, don't try anything else just keep clicking.

I liked Boniface's advice of looking at other churches, I have been doing that a little in the last couple of years.  Guess what?, there are some really happy people out there.  I'm also reading more of the Bible than I ever have, I know Mormon's claim it is one of the Standard Works, but I think it is highly neglected, at least I have.  It is helping too, I feel more promise praying over it than I do the BofM.  Maybe it seems newer to me, I actually know the BofM very well and the Bible little.

Hang in there with the thread, redman, I'll be watching this thread because, I am curious what everyone thinks of you, just like I wonder what they think of me.

With Love in Christ,

Randy

Wow, How many times do you try Moroni's promise?

I remember being a child of 5-6 years sitting in church and watching child after child go to the podium and bare their testimony. "I know this church is true, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, I love my mommy and daddy, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen". This or some short rendition of it. I remember asking myself, "How do they know that? I don't know that! How did they get that? Why don't I have it? Why am I different? How do I get what they have? I want this no matter what!". That was my thought process.

I was told to pray, I was praying. I was told to read the BofM and pray about it just like Joseph Smith did, I did. I even went several times to a grove of trees on my grandfathers ranch and tried that. I had read the BofM 3 times before I was 8 years old. I avoided getting baptized because I didn't know what all these other kids knew. I was caught up with, at 11 years old to get baptized, I was in a split family in a way, between staying with my parents during my school months and on my grandparents farm the summers months. My birthday was during the summer so I got overlooked at 8 for baptizm. At eleven I got caught and I had to take the Missionary Discussions from my Stake Missionaries to get baptized. I studied with zeal and asked a thousand questions. At that point in my life I had read the BofM at least 8 times, fasting and praying all the time. I had read the D&C, PofGP, and JST, I had a "Big Indian" writing tablet that I literally had a hundred or more questions I was trying to get answers to. The missionaries really couldn't answer but a few. I was forced to go to my baptizism interview with my Bishop. I answered his questions, and he said, I was ready to get baptized. I told him I didn't have a true testimony, that I didn't have what all those other kids in the church have, and that I had some questions. He said, "Lets answer those questions", I gave him the first one and in the discussion he got so mad he insulted me and my family and stated, "You will be baptized on Saturday, and you will stop all this questioning and quit being a disappointment and an embarassment to the church and your family." He said, "You need to put your boots on like a man and do this thing, your problem is, you think too much!!"

With the Bishop and my family's coersion I was baptized that Saturday. It's been 42 years since I have been baptized, I still do not have what those kids had as children. I have been faithful in every way I can just like many on this board have said to be.

I have repeated many times the Moroni challenge, to no avail. I came to the conclusion at 12 years old, that those kids didn't know anything at all. They were just trying to please mommy and daddy and the church authorities. They were doing everything just like the advice on this board, "go thru the motions, and the "burning in the bosom, and Moromi's promise will be fulfilled". I think it is more of the "brainwashing" that the church gets criticized for.

Is the advice given here, "to stay the course", is it good for everyone? If I was born into the Moslem faith, just like I was the Mormon faith, should I stay the course all my life, go thru the motions to the end, perservere for a lifetime without the "promise" being fulfilled, over look doubts and questions forever?

I think in the Moslem case many of you would call it brainwashing, conditioning, social and cultural pressure and then just say it wasn't in the cards in the pre-existence for that Moslem to get the truth.

I think if Moroni's challenge is to be true, it would come the first time. I am feeling I have lived 53 years of a delusion that the challenge is real. And with that I expect many to tell me, just like I have beat myself for up all my life, that I wasn't sincere enough, I didn't read enough, I didn't pray enough, I didn't fast enough, I'm just not worthy enough, but just keep on keeping on. Well I have done enough, I have waited long enough, and I still have my "Big Indian" tablet full of questions. Some have been answered, some not, some have been answered by Mormon apologetic sources and some have been answered by so called "anti-Mormon" sources. But this is head knowledge, I want spiritual confirmation. The spiritual confirmation I have been getting is that there are elements of truth in Mormon religion but most of it is not truth. I have been getting this confirmation for a long time and ignoring it, I have been "staying the course" and just hanging in there, going thru the motions.

Change is coming,

Amen

hey randy, i'm sorry that you find yourself in the same situation. it sucks. i imagine it is even more difficult for you having invested many more years trying to believe than i have.

i'm glad you've found this thread helpful. i think it's been a great discussion. it's fascinating to me how many different ways of interpreting our situation can be found here. your analogy about Dorothy's red slippers was great. as you've read, many people have shared similar advice with me on this thread. i imagine that when i "come out" to family and friends, i will hear the same thing. good luck with whatever path you choose.

[redman]

Without derailing the thread (and I believe I have seen this issue hashed out on here somewhere) is the LDS faithful's use of the word anti.

I find it quite offensive.

Anti may in dictionary definition terms mean opposed to something as one poster so eloquently stated, but when it is teamed with religion, it usually means a rabid hatred, such as that shared by the Nazi's in anti-semitism.

Mormon Critics is a much kinder approach I feel, unless one takes the myopic view that all those that criticise the church wish that Mormons were gassed on a mass scale. 

To criticise the church and its doctrines is one thing, but to hate mormons to the point of genocide is quite another, and I don't know that many critics however blatant fall into that category.

great point. earlier in this thread, someone else used the term "hate-monger" to describe those who maintain websites that challenge the teachings or origins of the LDS church.

are people really so narrow-minded to just assume that anything published with the intent of challenging the Church's claims is motivated by hate?

just look at things from the other side. Scientology has gotten a lot of press lately because of Tom Cruise. so in my curiosity, i decided to look up some info on the web. i came across some sites critical of scientology and came away thinking "wow that is some weird and interesting stuff." the websites told things about Scientology that the organization considers secret and embarrassing. most of us would read something like that and be glad that someone was willing to speak up and try to publish both sides of the story so that people won't get sucked into Scientology uninformed.

devout Scientologists, on the other hand, would probably called that an "anti" site full of hate and lies.

so it's all in the eye of the beholder. most LDS would have no problem reading a book or watching a documentary that challenges the origins of another religion. but as soon as someone does the same with the LDS church they are hate-filled minions of Satan.

[redman]

I made these assumptions because REDMAN has been taught the gospel.  Once you know these things, you never forget them, even if you choose not to believe in them or act upon this knowledge.  Again, I was not speaking of non-Mormons-- only those who have once had a knowledge of the truth and turned from it.  And REDMAN, if PICKLE'S missive reflects your true feelings, you are farther gone than you think you are.

how do you define "far gone?" i honestly didn't start this thread as a last desperate cry for help to save my testimony.

if "far gone" means having immersed myself in this church for over 20 years, learning it's principles, teaching them to others, applying moroni's promise, and then coming to a spiritual and rational conclusion that it is not true, then yeah, i guess i am "far gone."

that's just a derogatory way to describe me. i'm sure the same has been said of a mormon convert by the grieving members of his family or former church.

you've got to remember, i don't believe the church is true. i've already tried all the techniques suggested on this thread for years. everything in me tells me it's not true. so suggesting that i am "farther gone than you think you are" is incorrect. true i'm far gone from believing in the LDS church, but i know exactly where i'm at and i feel like i'm heading the right direction.

one man's "far gone" is another man's enlightenment.

[redman]

Ur1drfl2 wrote:

Sure these ex-Mormons' lives fill up with things that keep them busy, many of these things are good, but it seems to me that they lose their spiritual drive/focus. They simply exist and go through the routines of everyday life, not pressing forward any longer in that quest for oneness with God. And I've wondered if leaving the Church makes them want to erase God and their duty to Him entirely from their lives? Maybe you or some of the ex-Mormons on this board could answer this question for me.

I can say that the spiritual quest is what lead me away from Mormonism and its more rigid orthodoxy. I feel that I have a deep spiritual drive and desire to know God, but that Mormonism for me seemed to focus on appearances and less on personal integrity. That isn't to say that there aren't many ethical and honest LDS adherants, but rather, within LDS culture there is a deep seated judgemental attitude based on outward observances and appearances. perhaps, I just knew too many LDS persons that were willing to lie to others to keep up appearances rather than to be true to who they were regardless of the consequences.

What many Mormons see from ex-members in many cases, is a re-evaluation of what truly represents an inner morality, and what is cultural and super-imposed by society or religion that is really amoral, but that is dictated by the religion to be moral in the context of its rules, rituals and dogma. Some good examples of this are the WoW mandates, R-rated movie watching or Sabbath observance. To a believer, dismissal of these religious based moral codes by ex-members seems to reflect a new "worldly" attitude that to the believer reflects a "laziness" or desire to sin. In reality, to the Ex, he/she has merely disgarded these religious based rules as not a necessary component to true spirituality.

Drinking alcohol (responsibly and in moderation), coffee, or waterskiing on Sunday is no more a sin to me than an LDS member wearing a blue or white shirt to work. It is irrelevant to one's spiritual progress. Religion emphasizes obedience rather than personal integrity in interpreting spiritual matters in many cases.

One consequence of questioning Mormonism for many ex-members is a loss of the Mormon and Christian cosmology. The nature of God, Jesus Christ, prophets and the plan of salvation are questioned and ultimately re-interpreted or rejected as a sort of symbol set of myth derived originally from the Christian Cosmology. God may exist, Jesus may have existed, but how religions interpret the supernatural is no longer relevant. This position is most difficult to express as it must be experienced to be understood. Nevertheless, once it occurs, the ex-member must re-evaluate every aspect of their lives, their beliefs (if any exist) and even their very purpose. This can take some time and some experimentation in areas that members may see as destructive or sinful. One's "duty to God" as you put it, no longer falls in the same camp as it does for a member. One's duty is to be true to oneself, despite the societal and religious repurcussions, and despite any clear cut external answers or truth to live by.

You are to be commended for your good achievements and your devotion to family, but these alone do not open the door to the celestial kingdom. I guess in the end you must ask yourself what do you really want from this mortal experience, the greatest test of your eternal life?

This is exactly the sentiment that holds no power or sway for an ex-member as they simply do not believe that God (if God exists) operates in such a fashion as to make an eternal test of this life, or that a God of love would create such an arbitrary and rigged "test" to begin with.

Just some thoughts, and a major thread derailer I am sure.

that's a great point. i feel similar in many ways. contrary to what many on this thread have suggested as reasons for my disbelief (deliberate disbelief, indifference, confused by Satan, etc), many of my reasons are spiritual as well.

i think i reflect more on the meaning of life, the condition of humanity, and the beauty and wonder of this earth and of life itself more than many active mormons do. that is part of my spirituality.

does this make me better than them? no of course not. but it just illustrates that i have a great desire to understand my place in this universe. i just happen to believe that the LDS church and maybe organized religion in general is not the only way to do that, and is perhaps very counterproductive in the long run.

[King Pagan]

Alma said if you want to believe, let the desire work in you.

You have been hearing advice that you can't change your belief. Alma says that is not true. If you can pray that you want to believe, and then do "belief promoting" actions, instead of non-belief promoting actions, you can receive the blessing.

That's right redman. All you have to do is want to believe with all your heart. Then just go through the motions, acting as if you believe. Spend as much time with people who do believe as you can, and avoid spending time with anone who doesn't. Read faith promoting literature and stay away from anything that isn't faith promoting. Also, bear your testimony in front of other people--even though you don't have one. The way you get one is by bearing it. Listen to your heart, not your brain.

If you follow these simple steps, I guarantee you that you will believe. This method is used in Chinese prison camps, so it's got to work.

Seriously folks--why would God's gospel be so difficult to swallow? I mean, if it's so hard to believe that even someone who wants to believe it, can't, isn't that in and of itself a red flag? And aren't the measures taken by believers to protect their own belief from disenchantment (avoiding critical material, avoiding apostates, avoiding any thoughts which might lead to disbelief, etc.) also an indication that maybe, just maybe, this whole deal isn't true after all? As I've said before, physicists don't have weekly meetings where they reaffirm to each other that gravity is true. Truth doesn't need peer pressure, elaborate rituals, or convoluted and deceptive apologetics.

Although I'm sure that MC is pouring on the sarcasm, I suggest that there is a kernel of real truth. When a person establishes their faith, it is universally unsupportable by fact.

I love LDS. I love; Budhists, Jews, Taoists, Catholics, and I even love some EV. Each one establishes rituals, practices, doctrines, etc. in attempts to credentialize their beliefs.

In the end, no group will have all of the "correct" answers for a keenly inquiring mind. Gee, here we are back again at the question of faith; believing in things unseen and unknowable in your heart.

I'm a religious scientist that is thoroughly happy in the company of LDS. I find them to be excellent Christians and the collectively the best human beings that I have had the pleasure to know.

Be where you find joy.

[ur1drfl2]

RANDYC said:

Wow. Maybe this is best understood by your words "many of these things are good". I don't know why you think that others would agree with your idea of what is good.

We all must make judgements every day. I

[redman]

I'm beginning to wonder why redman came here to tell us about his experience? Did he expect faithful LDS members to say, "oh sure. No problem. All roads lead to Zion?" Did he wish to prove to hmself that Mormons are judgmental? Did he want to tell Mormons that we're evil for breaking up his family? Is he just venting? Or, as I hope, does he still have a spark of hope within, even if faith has mostly died? There are questions only he can answer, but if he finds the pickle is to his taste, his situation is much more serious than I realized.

honestly i didn't really "expect" anything from this thread. i'm not looking for excuses or explanations or to prove anything. i basically just wanted to present my story and figure out how a believing mormon deals with a case like me intellectually, where they can't use the common excuses of sin, laziness, being offended, etc to explain apostacy.

i was bored and thought it would make for good conversation, and it has exceeded my expectations. i sincerely appreciate all the reponses and the concern for me displayed by both sides of the debate.

i believe i have more than a "spark" of hope within me, it's just not the hope you would like me to have. i am full of hope for my future. i look forward to spending the rest of my life in the pursuit of raising a family, helping others through medicine, and exploring the meaning and beauty of life and the human condition. just because i won't be using the LDS church in my quest does not make my situation "serious" in my opinion.

I wonder, what makes the redman red?

that is a most complex and profound question, both literally and figuratively. perhaps i'll explore this question in another thread

[ave maria]

I'm beginning to wonder why redman came here to tell us about his experience? Did he expect faithful LDS members to say, "oh sure. No problem. All roads lead to Zion?" Did he wish to prove to hmself that Mormons are judgmental? Did he want to tell Mormons that we're evil for breaking up his family? Is he just venting? Or, as I hope, does he still have a spark of hope within, even if faith has mostly died? There are questions only he can answer, but if he finds the pickle is to his taste, his situation is much more serious than I realized.

honestly i didn't really "expect" anything from this thread. i'm not looking for excuses or explanations or to prove anything. i basically just wanted to present my story and figure out how a believing mormon deals with a case like me intellectually, where they can't use the common excuses of sin, laziness, being offended, etc to explain apostacy.

i was bored and thought it would make for good conversation, and it has exceeded my expectations. i sincerely appreciate all the reponses and the concern for me displayed by both sides of the debate.

i believe i have more than a "spark" of hope within me, it's just not the hope you would like me to have. i am full of hope for my future. i look forward to spending the rest of my life in the pursuit of raising a family, helping others through medicine, and exploring the meaning and beauty of life and the human condition. just because i won't be using the LDS church in my quest does not make my situation "serious" in my opinion.

I wonder, what makes the redman red?

that is a most complex and profound question, both literally and figuratively. perhaps i'll explore this question in another thread

redman--

You seem to have a pretty good outlook on things, and a level head on your shoulders.

I can relate in so many ways to so many things you've said on this thread.

You'll be fine. There is life, love, music, and much happiness to be had in this beautiful world of ours, with or without Mormonism.

I wish you well.

[asbestosman]

i believe i have more than a "spark" of hope within me, it's just not the hope you would like me to have. i am full of hope for my future. i look forward to spending the rest of my life in the pursuit of raising a family, helping others through medicine, and exploring the meaning and beauty of life and the human condition. just because i won't be using the LDS church in my quest does not make my situation "serious" in my opinion.

I guess it do me any good to worry about you then. I suppose the only useful thing I've said from your perspective is that I have no right to judge you.

Oh well, as long as you're leaving the church, I'm dying to know: have your horns fallen off yet?

[Boniface]

i believe i have more than a "spark" of hope within me, it's just not the hope you would like me to have. i am full of hope for my future. i look forward to spending the rest of my life in the pursuit of raising a family, helping others through medicine, and exploring the meaning and beauty of life and the human condition. just because i won't be using the LDS church in my quest does not make my situation "serious" in my opinion.

I guess it do me any good to worry about you then. I suppose the only useful thing I've said from your perspective is that I have no right to judge you.

Oh well, as long as you're leaving the church, I'm dying to know: have your horns fallen off yet?

Mine took about 2 months and half a bottle of Herbal Essance to come off!

[havejoy]

Redman,

Don't go to Church or pray or pay tithing or read scripture or anything else to do with the Church for a month. That empty feeling you'll have will tell you what you're missing and it'll be the Church. This is what I did. I ended up feeling so far away from God and so lonely and sad that I knew I was missing the truth.

[ave maria]

Redman,

Don't go to Church or pray or pay tithing or read scripture or anything else to do with the Church for a month. That empty feeling you'll have will tell you what you're missing and it'll be the Church. This is what I did. I ended up feeling so far away from God and so lonely and sad that I knew I was missing the truth.

Yeah, and be sure not to have any green Jell-O for a month.

[Tchild2]

Redman,

Don't go to Church or pray or pay tithing or read scripture or anything else to do with the Church for a month. That empty feeling you'll have will tell you what you're missing and it'll be the Church. This is what I did. I ended up feeling so far away from God and so lonely and sad that I knew I was missing the truth.

This is what I did. For some reason colors were brighter, birds chirped louder and the world seemed beautiful and new....but that was just me, I am sure you will get that sad and empty feeling.

[randyc]

Redman,

Don't go to Church or pray or pay tithing or read scripture or anything else to do with the Church for a month. That empty feeling you'll have will tell you what you're missing and it'll be the Church. This is what I did. I ended up feeling so far away from God and so lonely and sad that I knew I was missing the truth.

How can this even be construed as being remotely relevant to truth value? Yes, if you get an empty feeling it will probably mean you are missing the church but it certainly will not mean that the church is true. This is not even relevant.