What if you want the church to be true,

[charity]

Tchild2 responded to a suggestion that Redman might experience feelings of sadness, loneliness and emptiness if he left the Church by saying, "This is what I did. For some reason colors were brighter, birds chirped louder and the world seemed beautiful and new...."

What Tchild2 was probably experiencing was the relief that comes with having made a decision after a prolonged period of indecision. However, that is unrelated to the wisdom of the decision. For instance, one of the real red flags in suicidal people, is if they suddenly seem to be feeling a lot better. They aren't better. They have made the decision to kill themselves and are relieved that they made the decision! And obviousy, that is not a wise decision.

[philstone]

Pray fast talk it overwith your bishop but if you really cant force yourself to belive the most honest thing to do is leave.

[ave maria]

Tchild2 responded to a suggestion that Redman might experience feelings of sadness, loneliness and emptiness if he left the Church by saying, "This is what I did. For some reason colors were brighter, birds chirped louder and the world seemed beautiful and new...."

What Tchild2 was probably experiencing was the relief that comes with having made a decision after a prolonged period of indecision. However, that is unrelated to the wisdom of the decision. For instance, one of the real red flags in suicidal people, is if they suddenly seem to be feeling a lot better. They aren't better. They have made the decision to kill themselves and are relieved that they made the decision! And obviousy, that is not a wise decision.

Wow. Another apt comparison.

charity, is it possible for you to wrap your mind around the possibility that not everyone's experience would be, or should be, the same in leaving behind an institution that might have been with them since childhood, and that likewise, there might be some parallels between people leaving one institution and people leaving another that has no bearing on truth claims of the particular institution?

To compare one person's sense of enlightenment and liberation with the decision making process of a suicidal person is reaching.

If you're going to apply it, be sure the next time you hear a convert to Mormonism talk about the feeling of enlightenment and liberation they experienced after leaving their former faith, you tell them it's probably just like the decisiveness a suicidal person experiences, and nothing more.

[charity]

Ave wrote: "To compare one person's sense of enlightenment and liberation with the decision making process of a suicidal person is reaching."

The relief factor in decision making might very well be mis-perceived as a sense of enlightenment and liberation when the decision is obviously a poor one.

Also, just as you will take every opportunity to point out your idea that leaving the Church is a good decision, leads to all kinds of positive things, etc. there are those of us who will balance your point of view with the opposite perspective.

[ave maria]

Also, just as you will take every opportunity to point out your idea that leaving the Church is a good decision, leads to all kinds of positive things, etc. there are those of us who will balance your point of view with the opposite perspective.

Yes, and vice versa.

Everyone's experience is different, as is everyone's perspective. To be filling someone with dread, fear and guilt over an experience that doesn't necessarily include that is decidedly unhealthy.

[charity]

Ave wrote: "Everyone's experience is different, as is everyone's perspective. To be filling someone with dread, fear and guilt over an experience that doesn't necessarily include that is decidedly unhealthy.

Only as decidedly unhealthy as encouraging a person to make a decision which may turn out to be the worst decision in that person's life. Please refer to my previous post. Your perspective should be balanced, and that is what many of us here continue to do.

[Abulafia]

Tchild2 said:

This is what I did.  For some reason colors were brighter, birds chirped louder and the world seemed beautiful and new....but that was just me, I am sure you will get that sad and empty feeling. 

I have to share your experience here Tchild

Even the most ultra faithful members of the church, commented on seeing me after I had finally made the decision to leave, that I looked happier.

This was a great paradox for me, since I had been taught that the only way to true happiness was through the LDS church.

I was told that I looked positively glowing and bright of eye.

15 years later and I now know that LDS theology does not necessarily bring happiness, what brings happiness IMHO is striving to be authentic, to continue learning, to try to love as best you can, and to forgive yourself and others when you and they mess up.

Principles of happiness are universal, and not tied to one organisation.

[ave maria]

Ave wrote: "Everyone's experience is different, as is everyone's perspective. To be filling someone with dread, fear and guilt over an experience that doesn't necessarily include that is decidedly unhealthy.

Only as decidedly unhealthy as encouraging a person to make a decision which may turn out to be the worst decision in that person's life. Please refer to my previous post. Your perspective should be balanced, and that is what many of us here continue to do.

Yes, exactly right. There are some of us who are trying to provide balanced perspective and objectivity; interestingly, we all think we're doing it, and we think the "other guys" are not.

You have no way of knowing what's best, or right, for redman, or whether or not something is the "worst decision in his life." Suggesting it is is certainly not "balanced."

One thing I find fascinating is that Mormons in particular seem to be unusually threatened by others leaving their ranks.

[UteFan]

I just read through pretty much all of this thread, for the most part it was a good discussion. I consider myself to be a TBM. I've always wanted the church to be true, and always questions many of the teachings since I was 12 or so - (I'm early 30's now)

Anyway I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God, I believe Christ did live and I believe prayers are answered. I also enjoy serving in the Temple and feel the spirit strongly when I attend.

But sometimes I wonder if I only believe because I've believed for so long and really wanted it to be true. I think there really could be a psycological explanation for my believes if it turns out the Mormon church isn't true. But for the most part I see the church as a positive influince in my life and am trying to be the best member I can.

I have many of the same concerns you have, I'm also a father and was married in the temple with my wonderful wife. She is very concerned about my doubts. I've also expressed my doubts with my bishop who didn't seem to worried and hasn't talked about my doubts with me since I first spoke with him 6 months ago or so. (I'm the ward clerk in my ward so I see him all the time).

I've thought now and again how my life would change if I left the church. Seriously I doubt my life would change too much. Over half of my friends are not members of the church, and if my member friends wanted to look down on me because I had left #*<{ them. On the other hand I really worry what it would do to my wife. I am doing everything in my power to keep our family strong. I also wonder how my family and her family would react.

For now I'm trying to stay close to the scriptures, prayer and try not to let my worries overcome my testimony. I like the self analogy. At some point my shelf may break, but I'm doing everything I can to reinforce it.

I guess the gist of it is I still find being active in the church is a positive force in my life. If I get to the point I feel I'm better off without the church in it I'd probably quit, but I don't think that would happen.

If I do decide to leave the church I would definitely talk to my friends / family I would let them know exactly why I left. And I wouldn't do it in a letter. I would talk with them. Or at least give them an opportunity to talk to me. I had a good friend from my mission talk to me when he left the Church, It definitly gave me a few more "concerns" but I'm grateful he took the time to explain it.

Good Luck.

"GO UTES"

[Beowulf]

How important is it (the Church and the Gospel) to you?

One of my closest friends left the Church when I was younger, and thought that I would one day follow him out.

It never happened. (Back around 1980 or so, he spelled it out to me. "As soon as Ezra Taft Benson becomes president, you will follow me out." Well, Bro. Benson HAD said things that I found annoying over the years. But I responded, "I have faith that Bro. Benson will not say anything to annoy me when he becomes President of the Church." And guess what? I am still here, two presidents later.)

Beowulf

[Samwise]

I guess the gist of it is I still find being active in the church is a positive force in my life.

[charity]

Ave wrote: "One thing I find fascinating is that Mormons in particular seem to be unusually threatened by others leaving their ranks."

That statement is patently offensive. I hope you didn't mean it that way, Ave. It is the same as when gay groups says that any opposition to homosexuality is based on the person who finds homosexuality objectionable secretly fearing he/she is homosexual. Even if honest, the opinion is offensive because it completely disrespects another person's right to have an opinion based on something other than self-interest.

I am not threatened when a person leaves the church. I am very saddened. If he/she continues down that path, there will be lost blessings, not just for the individual but for many other family members. A spouses loses an eternal companion, a child loses his/her parent in eternity. And there may be lasting damage down the generations.

The enormity of the loss that can be caused by one individual is staggering. This is if the person simply leaves without trying to take others with him/her. If the person leaving also tries to convince others to go, too, then I think my feelings would better described as righteous anger.

[Dill Pickles]

a question from the Pickle jar: what happens to God's side of the sealing covenant, if the person leaves the church, but still retains his/her faith in God, keeps the law of tithing and the law of chastity, keeps his/her marriage vows? Does he lose the guidance of the Holy Ghost? Does God stop blessing him? Are his covenants cancelled? Is he stripped of his priesthood, his endowment, his sealing?

[ave maria]

Ave wrote: "One thing I find fascinating is that Mormons in particular seem to be unusually threatened by others leaving their ranks."

That statement is patently offensive. I hope you didn't mean it that way, Ave. It is the same as when gay groups says that any opposition to homosexuality is based on the person who finds homosexuality objectionable secretly fearing he/she is homosexual. Even if honest, the opinion is offensive because it completely disrespects another person's right to have an opinion based on something other than self-interest.

I am not threatened when a person leaves the church. I am very saddened. If he/she continues down that path, there will be lost blessings, not just for the individual but for many other family members. A spouses loses an eternal companion, a child loses his/her parent in eternity. And there may be lasting damage down the generations.

The enormity of the loss that can be caused by one individual is staggering. This is if the person simply leaves without trying to take others with him/her. If the person leaving also tries to convince others to go, too, then I think my feelings would better described as righteous anger.

What's important for you to understand, charity, is that you, as a Latter-day Saint, and other Latter-day Saints, are not alone in that feeling.

How do you think the Church (not LDS) has historically felt when schism has occurred? When the Protestant Reformation took millions from the Church?

Do you think that didn't cause enormous sadness? Overwhelming grief? Do you imagine the Church likes to be divided, separated?

I've pointed out more times than I can recall just in the last few days that I believe you and I are looking at the same diamond, from two different perspectives. You believe you belong to the true Church of Jesus Christ, as do I. You grieve when people are separated from it, as am I. There are those who believe that the LDS Church speaks for God; there are others who believe it is an affront to Him; there are still others who are officially neutral on the subject.

Your premise is only correct, as are your sentiments, if your assumption that the LDS Church is the true and authentic Church of Jesus Christ is correct. If not, you are in error.

You are, however, making an incorrect assumption foundationally in assuming that it is only within the LDS Church that people can know, or be close to, God, and that anyone who separates themself from it is somehow separated from God, which is demonstrably incorrect.

I am not here to argue which of the many churches, including LDS and Catholic, is correct, or to convince you to change your own beliefs. But I do think if you argue for balance you should step back a step or two and look at the bigger picture.

[sibling]

You are, however, making an incorrect assumption foundationally in assuming that it is only within the LDS Church that people can know, or be close to, God,

For what it's worth, I haven't seen Charity make any assumption of this sort.

and that anyone who separates themself from it is somehow separated from God, which is demonstrably incorrect.

No, it is not "demonstrably incorrect". On the contrary, if the LDS Church is indeed the restored Church of Jesus Christ, as it claims, then anyone who separates himself from the LDS Church also by definition separates himself from God.

[ave maria]

On the contrary, if the LDS Church is indeed the restored Church of Jesus Christ, as it claims, then anyone who separates himself from the LDS Church also by definition separates himself from God.

Nonsense.

[sibling]

On the contrary, if the LDS Church is indeed the restored Church of Jesus Christ, as it claims, then anyone who separates himself from the LDS Church also by definition separates himself from God.

Nonsense.

A compelling argument, but I'd like to see it expanded just a bit.

[Boniface]

On the contrary, if the LDS Church is indeed the restored Church of Jesus Christ, as it claims, then anyone who separates himself from the LDS Church also by definition separates himself from God.

Nonsense.

A compelling argument, but I'd like to see it expanded just a bit.

So only Latter-day Saints have a relationship with God? Tell that to the late Pope John Paul II who spent his entire life in the service of the Lord and wrote some of the most beautiful words about Him - and who in almost every sense of the word died in the arms of God. Tell that to my grandmother, who reads her Bible every day and donates almost 50% of her yearly income to Christian ministries throughout the world. Are you saying that only the LDS can truly have a relationship with God - that some how you have a trademark on Him?

Do your leaders share this opinion?

[sibling]

So only Latter-day Saints have a relationship with God?  [...]  Are you saying that only the LDS can truly have a relationship with God - that some how you have a trademark on Him? Do your leaders share this opinion?

My goodness. We have some serious misreading going on here. No such statements as you suggest above were either made or implied by me, by Charity, or by anyone else that I've seen.

Please carefully note the sentence I wrote, which you quoted in full:

"On the contrary, if the LDS Church is indeed the restored Church of Jesus Christ, as it claims, then anyone who separates himself from the LDS Church also by definition separates himself from God."

This is a simple logical statement that says if <condition> then <result>. The <condition> and <result> have been color-coded above, so you can see where each corresponding part is.

After carefully examining the above, reread what you wrote, then consider:

• Was any mention made about non-Latter-day Saints having or lacking a relationship with God?
  
• Is there anything in the above logical statement suggesting that the Latter-day Saint Church has "a trademark" on God?
  
• Does anything about the logical statement make mention of the opinion of leaders?
  

I feel kind of like the guy in the SNL 60 Minutes send-up: "Is it me? It's not me, right? It's him, right?"

[Boniface]

So only Latter-day Saints have a relationship with God?

[sibling]

Well, since Ave Maria and myself have both seperated from the LDS church, by your definition, we are seperated from God (assuming that the LDS Church is true, just as you said)?

Of course. The statement is clear enough. Where's the confusion? If you have separated yourself from God's Church, then you have separated yourself from God.

Surely this is obvious. Is it not? It requires that we believe that God expects anyone who wishes to come unto him to utilize his Church in doing so; but the very fact that we believe God even has a Church implies that he expects us to act as such. Furthermore, the fact that the LDS Church specifically teaches this doctrine necessarily implies that if it is truly the Church of Christ, then all who will be saved with Christ must necessarily come unto him through it.

Edit: "Separation" is a relative term. That one is separated from God when separated from God's Church does not mean that one is completely isolated from God, nor would I suggest so. In fact, I could even imagine a situation where someone within God's Church does not, for whatever reason, develop a closeness to God, but then leaves God's Church (thus distancing himself from the ability that he once had to approach God) and afterward begins drawing closer to God in real terms than he ever did before. In such a case, a person might well find himself closer to God outside of God's Church than inside it; that that would be in spite of, not because of, his abandonment of God's Church.

In any case, my remarks were not personally directed. They were (what I thought to be) a very obvious statement of logical consistency: One who distances himself from God's Church necessarily distances himself from God, in some sense at least.

I certainly hope God wouldn't see it as that way

Whether you hope for that or not is irrelevant as far as the statement goes. Consider the statement:

If a foo is denser than water, then it will sink if I put it in the tub.

Now, I may hope with all my heart that the poor little foo doesn't sink in water. I may even say that I hope God doesn't think so. But it doesn't matter. If the foo is denser than water, it will sink, and if it's less dense than water, it will float. My hopes don't have any bearing on the matter. It's a simple statement of fact.

[ave maria]

Well, since Ave Maria and myself have both seperated from the LDS church, by your definition, we are seperated from God (assuming that the LDS Church is true, just as you said)?

Of course. The statement is clear enough. Where's the confusion? If you have separated yourself from God's Church, then you have separated yourself from God.

Surely this is obvious. Is it not? It requires that we believe that God expects anyone who wishes to come unto him to utilize his Church in doing so; but the very fact that we believe God even has a Church implies that he expects us to act as such. Furthermore, the fact that the LDS Church specifically teaches this doctrine necessarily implies that if it is truly the Church of Christ, then all who will be saved with Christ must necessarily come unto him through it.

I certainly hope God wouldn't see it as that way

Whether you hope for that or not is irrelevant as far as the statement goes. Consider the statement:

If a foo is denser than water, then it will sink if I put it in the tub.

Now, I may hope with all my heart that the poor little foo doesn't sink in water. I may even say that I hope God doesn't think so. But it doesn't matter. If the foo is denser than water, it will sink, and if it's less dense than water, it will float. My hopes don't have any bearing on the matter. It's a simple statement of fact.

Not only is that nonsense, it's dangerous nonsense.

[sibling]

Not only is that nonsense, it's dangerous nonsense.

Yet another great statement from ave maria with no backing. Ave, can you perhaps discuss things a bit more, rather than simply pronouncing your judgment on the matter? Not that your judgment is unwelcome, but your bare judgment with no explanation or justification just isn't very helpful or convincing.

[ave maria]

Not only is that nonsense, it's dangerous nonsense.

Yet another great statement from ave maria with no backing. Ave, can you perhaps discuss things a bit more, rather than simply pronouncing your judgment on the matter? Not that your judgment is unwelcome, but your bare judgment with no explanation or justification just isn't very helpful or convincing.

Gosh, I was thinking the same thing about you.

Twice now we've heard you proclaim boldly that those who separate themselves from the LDS Church by definition separate themselves from God, without any substantiation whatsoever, other than that it appeals to your sense of logic.

[1dc]

Twice now we've heard you proclaim boldly that those who separate themselves from the LDS Church by definition separate themselves from God, without any substantiation whatsoever, other than that it appeals to your sense of logic.

Actually, I believe he phrased it as a logical If/Then possibility which is of course tied to his faith . . in simple terms, he believes the possibility is possible and while others may not. See articles of faith. If you don't believe, please move on with what you do believe in.