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What if you want the church to be true,


redman

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Ave, from what I am gathering, it is only OK to leave any OTHER church EXCEPT the LDS church.  Redman is at fault here because, though he still loves his wife and wants to remain with her, he also swore allegience to the church at his wedding day - therefore, he isn't living up to his end of the deal.  Poor, poor redman.

Absolutely. After all, we all know that the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is perfectly relaxed about Catholics leaving to join other churches; there has never been a Catholic child who was told by a parish priest that her lapsed or ex-Catholic father is going to burn in hell, has there?

Motes and beams,

Pahoran

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Ave, from what I am gathering, it is only OK to leave any OTHER church EXCEPT the LDS church.  Redman is at fault here because, though he still loves his wife and wants to remain with her, he also swore allegience to the church at his wedding day - therefore, he isn't living up to his end of the deal.  Poor, poor redman.

Absolutely. After all, we all know that the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is perfectly relaxed about Catholics leaving to join other churches; there has never been a Catholic child who was told by a parish priest that her lapsed or ex-Catholic father is going to burn in hell, has there?

Motes and beams,

Pahoran

Thanks for illustrating my point beautifully.

The phenomenon is not unique to Mormonism, never has been, yet Latter-day Saints rejoice anytime someone leaves another faith to convert to the LDS Church (all the while someone else's heart, and possibly family, is breaking over it).

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She married him specifically in a Temple to get a certain end result (ie Celestial marriage).

actually i think the desired result was that she would finally get to jump my bones. the whole celestial marriage thing was secondary. :P

in all seriousness, i wholeheartedly understand where you are coming from charity. i am fully aware of what my exit from the church will mean to my wife, assuming she doesn't come with me. i hurt for her just thinking about it. this is not what i had in mind either.

but it comes back to the point i was making yesterday. should i just fake/force belief to keep her dream alive? because in my mind i'm not breaking a covenant because it was made on false premises to begin with.

our marriage covenant remains intact. but our temple marriage will not be valid anymore, in my opinion, but it doesn't mean the same thing to me anymore anyway.

it's just a matter of her belief vs my belief at this point. all i can do is love her more than ever. i don't want to hurt her, but again you have to understand my perspective. i don't believe i am breaking a true covenant to begin with. i don't believe for a second, that however the afterlife turns out to be, that she will be given to another man, after a lifetime of love and companionship together.

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The phenomenon is not unique to Mormonism, never has been, yet Latter-day Saints rejoice anytime someone leaves another faith to convert to the LDS Church (all the while someone else's heart, and possibly family, is breaking over it).

The phenomenon of rejoicing over splitting family units and breaking hearts may be something you relate to in the Catholic church, but it is not the doctrine of the LDS church and never has been.

Families are advised that "family members will progress in the Gospel best as a family unit". It is by consent of parents (in the case of minor children) or a spouse that split family units are baptized into the LDS Church.

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Redman, if you are determined to leave the Church, and you love your wife as you say you do, then I would suggest this:

Support her every action in the Church. Go with her to church, even though you don't take the sacrament. You have said you generally have no quarrel with the teachings of living a good life.

Never speak against the Church to her. You have seen on this message board that what you find persuasive evidence against the Church, many intelligent people disagree with and continue devout in their religion. Allow your wife the same choice without you trying to destroy her faith, as yours seems to have been destroyed.

Allow her all the contact with the Church that she would expect. Home teachers, visiting teachers, etc. Support her in attending the temple even though it is now without you.

Continue to conduct your home to LDS standards. It can't hurt.

After you have made the break with the Church, resist the temptation to continue to bolster your position. Do not read anti-Mormon material or associate with anti-Mormons on message boards, chat rooms or in public. Becoming an inactive member, even having your name removed from the rolls is a lot different from becoming an anti-Mormon.

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The phenomenon is not unique to Mormonism, never has been, yet Latter-day Saints rejoice anytime someone leaves another faith to convert to the LDS Church (all the while someone else's heart, and possibly family, is breaking over it).

The phenomenon of rejoicing over splitting family units and breaking hearts may be something you relate to in the Catholic church, but it is not the doctrine of the LDS church and never has been.

Families are advised that "family members will progress in the Gospel best as a family unit". It is by consent of parents (in the case of minor children) or a spouse that split family units are baptized into the LDS Church.

Respectfully, I think you're mistaken.

For every convert to Mormonism, do you, or other Latter-day Saints, give thought to the non-LDS family members (as well as friends and associates) who were hurt or disappointed by the convert's decision to join the LDS Church?

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The phenomenon is not unique to Mormonism, never has been, yet Latter-day Saints rejoice anytime someone leaves another faith to convert to the LDS Church (all the while someone else's heart, and possibly family, is breaking over it).

The phenomenon of rejoicing over splitting family units and breaking hearts may be something you relate to in the Catholic church, but it is not the doctrine of the LDS church and never has been.

Families are advised that "family members will progress in the Gospel best as a family unit". It is by consent of parents (in the case of minor children) or a spouse that split family units are baptized into the LDS Church.

Out of curiosity, what would you tell a teenager who wanted to join the LDS church, but would do so at the expense of their relationship to his/her parents? Would you cheer them on and encourage them to join the church, or would you advise them to do what would maintain the greatest level of peace and stability in their home and remain in the church of their parents? Can you see what we are talking about now?

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Redman, if you are determined to leave the Church, and you love your wife as you say you do, then I would suggest this:

Support her every action in the Church. Go with her to church, even though you don't take the sacrament. You have said you generally have no quarrel with the teachings of living a good life.

Never speak against the Church to her. You have seen on this message board that what you find persuasive evidence against the Church, many intelligent people disagree with and continue devout in their religion. Allow your wife the same choice without you trying to destroy her faith, as yours seems to have been destroyed.

Allow her all the contact with the Church that she would expect. Home teachers, visiting teachers, etc. Support her in attending the temple even though it is now without you.

Continue to conduct your home to LDS standards. It can't hurt.

After you have made the break with the Church, resist the temptation to continue to bolster your position. Do not read anti-Mormon material or associate with anti-Mormons on message boards, chat rooms or in public. Becoming an inactive member, even having your name removed from the rolls is a lot different from becoming an anti-Mormon.

No offense intended charity, but it seems like what you are really saying is this:

redman, if you are determined to leave the church, and you love your wife as you say you do, I would suggest this: pretend that you are LDS, just don't actually take the sacrament.

Am I right in thinking this? Is this what he should do? Go through the motions and continue to be untrue to what he really believes?

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Out of curiosity, what would you tell a teenager who wanted to join the LDS church, but would do so at the expense of their relationship to his/her parents?  Would you cheer them on and encourage them to join the church, or would you advise them to do what would maintain the greatest level of peace and stability in their home and remain in the church of their parents?  Can you see what we are talking about now?

No.

I would tell them to obey their parents until they are of age.

It would be very easy for me to say that, because it is the Church's position.

You see, we don't like to introduce strife into families.

You also wrote:

No offense intended charity, but it seems like what you are really saying is this:

redman, if you are determined to leave the church, and you love your wife as you say you do, I would suggest this: pretend that you are LDS, just don't actually take the sacrament.

Am I right in thinking this? Is this what he should do? Go through the motions and continue to be untrue to what he really believes?

That is clearly not what Charity is saying.

She seems to me to be saying that he should make his apostasy as painless as possible by not trying to drag her out of the Church with him, as so many apostates do; thus causing the marital conflict that they subsequently (and dishonestly) blame on the Church.

Regards,

Pahoran

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She seems to me to be saying that he should make his apostasy as painless as possible by not trying to drag her out of the Church with him, as so many apostates do; thus causing the marital conflict that they subsequently (and dishonestly) blame on the Church.

Regards,

Pahoran

Are you saying, then, that those who leave other faiths to convert to Mormonism should not to try to "drag their spouses" out of their former churches with them?

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She seems to me to be saying that he should make his apostasy as painless as possible by not trying to drag her out of the Church with him, as so many apostates do; thus causing the marital conflict that they subsequently (and dishonestly) blame on the Church.

Regards,

Pahoran

Are you saying, then, that those who leave other faiths to convert to Mormonism should not to try to "drag their spouses" out of their former churches with them?

Actually AM, there is an objectively quantifiable difference in play here.

Those who investigate and subsequently join the Church of Jesus Christ do so without regard to whatever church they previously attended. That is, they don't leave their former church and then become a Latter-day Saint; they become a Latter-day Saint and, in the process, leave their former church (or whatever.)

Furthermore, the missionaries are usually teaching them the Gospel in their homes, so their families know what they are up to.

By contrast, those who fall away from the Gospel don't do that because they've found something better; it's almost always because they've been diverted or perverted, not because they've been converted. They decide, for whatever reason, to leave the Church, and only later start looking for something else.

In both cases--that of the converts and that of the apostates--the most important religious organisation in view is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Which is, I suppose, as it should be.

But in fact I agree that nobody should ever "drag" anybody anywhere. People should join the Church because they are converted, not because they are bullied.

Regards,

Pahoran

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She seems to me to be saying that he should make his apostasy as painless as possible by not trying to drag her out of the Church with him, as so many apostates do; thus causing the marital conflict that they subsequently (and dishonestly) blame on the Church.

Regards,

Pahoran

Are you saying, then, that those who leave other faiths to convert to Mormonism should not to try to "drag their spouses" out of their former churches with them?

Actually AM, there is an objectively quantifiable difference in play here.

Those who investigate and subsequently join the Church of Jesus Christ do so without regard to whatever church they previously attended. That is, they don't leave their former church and then become a Latter-day Saint; they become a Latter-day Saint and, in the process, leave their former church (or whatever.)

Furthermore, the missionaries are usually teaching them the Gospel in their homes, so their families know what they are up to.

By contrast, those who fall away from the Gospel don't do that because they've found something better; it's almost always because they've been diverted or perverted, not because they've been converted. They decide, for whatever reason, to leave the Church, and only later start looking for something else.

In both cases--that of the converts and that of the apostates--the most important religious organisation in view is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Which is, I suppose, as it should be.

But in fact I agree that nobody should ever "drag" anybody anywhere. People should join the Church because they are converted, not because they are bullied.

Regards,

Pahoran

One person's convert is another person's apostate.

Again, thanks for illustrating my points so beautifully.

p.s. Your assumption regarding people converting to Mormonism exclusively while members of other faiths is as incorrect as your assumption that Latter-day Saints don't leave Mormonism to convert to non-LDS faiths. And your assumption that family members aren't ever surprised by this, or don't grieve, is equally incorrect.

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Are you saying, then, that those who leave other faiths to convert to Mormonism should not to try to "drag their spouses" out of their former churches with them?

Article of Faith 11:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

No one should be 'dragged' anywhere - to or from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Nor do we teach that they should be.

In my ward we have at least two husbands that I know of - one non-LDS whose wife converted after marriage, and one inactive-LDS who married an inactive-LDS woman who became active again after many years of marriage. These two husbands totally support their wives in their church activities, callings, etc. One allows Home Teachers/Visiting Teachers in his home, the other does not. Both husbands come to various ward activities with their wives (and take smoking breaks together outside! :P ). Both have made it totally clear to well-meaning members and missionaries that they do not want to be converted but they'll be happy to discuss religion with anyone at any time - as long as it remains civil. Our whole ward welcomes them as 'members' of the ward family any time they show up. No big deal.

I think Redman can, because he loves his wife and child, totally support them in their activity in Church even without going to church every week and skipping the Sacrament. It depends on what type of people live in his ward as to how they will adjust to his new status. My ward is phenominal in the 'non-judgemental' department (no bragging, just my observation having lived in many different wards throughout my life.) Maybe his will be also. It would be easier for his wife and child if it is.

Jane

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Respectfully, I think you're mistaken.

For every convert to Mormonism, do you, or other Latter-day Saints, give thought to the non-LDS family members (as well as friends and associates) who were hurt or disappointed by the convert's decision to join the LDS Church?

Perhaps this is another case where you believe your past experience is more knowing than that of current members and that somehow you do so respectfully while giving thought to current members' feelings. In any case, I quoted from Church materials on what the requirements are, while you provide us with exactly what?

With respect to the conversions I'm aware of, yes of course there is concern about how family will affect each converts commitment to their choices and the reverse. With nearly every family there are unique dynamics of how they proceed with such important decisions, so it is obvious that this is a common issue. The family unit is a key building block and always has been. I'm surprised you could even think baptism services could be discussed, scheduled, and planned without considering families.

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Respectfully, I think you're mistaken.

For every convert to Mormonism, do you, or other Latter-day Saints, give thought to the non-LDS family members (as well as friends and associates) who were hurt or disappointed by the convert's decision to join the LDS Church?

Perhaps this is another case where you believe your past experience is more knowing than that of current members and that somehow you do so respectfully while giving thought to current members' feelings. In any case, I quoted from Church materials on what the requirements are, while you provide us with exactly what?

With respect to the conversions I'm aware of, yes of course there is concern about how family will affect each converts commitment to their choices and the reverse. With nearly every family there are unique dynamics of how they proceed with such important decisions, so it is obvious that this is a common issue. The family unit is a key building block and always has been. I'm surprised you could even think baptism services could be discussed, scheduled, and planned without considering families.

You're limiting "families," as I understand you, to spouses and children--not parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, or siblings, or anything that would constitute the extended family.

I assume you've done genealogical research in your own family, as have many of us. I doubt there's a person on this board with LDS ancestors who doesn't have multiple examples of ancestors who converted from one faith to another, where there wasn't disappointment and hurt in the family as a result.

Offhand, I can think of several examples in my own ancestry. Paternal grandfather was disowned by his parents for converting to Mormonism. Maternal great-grandmother left her entire family behind in England to join the LDS Church and come to the United States. Ditto maternal great-great-grandfather.

And that's only those who left non-LDS faiths to convert to Mormonism, and doesn't account for those who left Judaism to become Christian, or Catholicism to become Protestant, of which there were no doubt hundreds.

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One person's convert is another person's apostate.

I know this.

But you are carefully ignoring the fact that our converts don't join the Church because they've just read a book or a website called "147 Reasons Why Anglicanism Is Out To Lunch." They join it because they have become converted to it, not from something else.

Again, thanks for illustrating my points so beautifully.

Nice try. I'm a little too old for head games like that.

p.s.  Your assumption regarding people converting to Mormonism exclusively while members of other faiths is as incorrect

Excuse me, but such is not my assumption. I am fully aware of the fact that people investigate and join the Church from varying positions vis-a-vis a former faith tradition, including being comfortably ensconced therein, being in conflict therewith, having recently left, having long ago left, or having never had such a tradition at all.

My point is simply that nobody joins the Church as some kind of default option because they're mad at Father Sean from St. Patrick's.

as your assumption that Latter-day Saints don't leave Mormonism to convert to non-LDS faiths.

Again, you are misreading my position. It is simply that people fall into apostasy because they are deceived by the hate propaganda, and only then do they consider joining something else. The two events may be close together in time, because the person deceiving them out of the Church of Jesus Christ may have some second-best alternative ready to hand; but the falling away happens first, as I'm sure you know.

And your assumption that family members aren't ever surprised by this, or don't grieve, is equally incorrect.

Third strike. I'm fully aware that family members, often deceived by the very same hate propaganda discussed above, frequently react badly to a loved one's conversion.

Regards,

Pahoran

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One person's convert is another person's apostate.

I know this.

But you are carefully ignoring the fact that our converts don't join the Church because they've just read a book or a website called "147 Reasons Why Anglicanism Is Out To Lunch." They join it because they have become converted to it, not from something else.

Bingo.

:lightbulb emoticon:

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our marriage covenant remains intact. but our temple marriage will not be valid anymore, in my opinion, but it doesn't mean the same thing to me anymore anyway.

Which covenant is that which remains intact if the authority was never valid in the first place? Are you referring to a civil recording of marriage?

By what measure of eternal truth do you believe such a commitment exists beyond your own death?

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Charity's advice to redman might be wise, seriously. Without knowing redman or his wife, it might be wisest to very gently enter this new phase of their relationship.

If I were redman & following this advice, I would refrain from initiating any discussion of problem areas - let your wife bring up the subject. Stay positive, stay very engaged & loving, take the high road, certainly.

In time the wife might see that it really isn't Satan behind his change in heart and she might start to see things the way he does. This has happened to quite a few couples.

Some couples survive this kind of change, others don't.

Hang tough & good luck.

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Why do TBM's have such a problem following this advice?

"I admire men and women who have developed a questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should of course respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent

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You are trying to keep a family together, and that is not altogether unwise.

Good point. If not for my wife and daughter, i would have quit probably six months ago, if not sooner.

But I find it hard to swallow that one spouse making an honest and thoughtful life decision should lead to the breakup of a family.

Why does the church teach/imply that?

This caught my eye.

Our Church does not teach this (that one spouse doing what they think best should break up a family).

Reflect for a moment on the situation when Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and wanted Adam to eat it, too. He must have known it was wrong, and wouldn't have eaten it, except he also realized that he had been commanded to stay with her, that they were to be one. And so he also ate. And together they lost the Garden and were cast out. They had to struggle through life's hardships together and share it's joys. Adam did right.

How do I feel about someone like yourself who is struggling and finally decides to exit? I feel sad. I wish with all my heart they had stuck it out because these people do move on with their lives, most of them don't do any great evil, but they don't seem to be involved in doing much good either. They just exist. It's almost like they lose their purpose in life.

So evaluate your past carefully before you let go the rod of iron. Have your years in the Church brought bad or good into your life? Are you a better person than you otherwise might have been because you have been obedient to the commandments thus far? When is the last time you studied your patriarchal blessing?

And as for your "suicide" comment? Similar oaths and covenants have been around since the beginning of time and are found even today in some cultures.

Be patient. God will show you the way.

YOU are wonderful, too.

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Oh, and one other thing that I think is ludicrous...to the persons who honestly believe that its better to die than lose your virtue obviously have never been faced with that proposition. Neither have I. But when I have children, I would NEVER teach them that. Do any of you seriously believe that? If so, you don't care much for yourself or for your loved ones. Honestly, how can any parent truly believe that? "Ok honey, I just want you to know that I'd much rather you come home in a bodybag than to ever lose your virtue. Have fun on your date." What you are really saying is that I value your virtue more than I value you. Does anyone see the problem here?

And there are thousands and thousands of LDS kids then that should be shuddering in their boots because they did that very thing. What ever happened to repentence? Its called fear, guilt, manipulation, and control. That's how you keep people in line, and for the most part it works.

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