What if you want the church to be true,

[charity]

Belief is under our control to some degree. The ability to believe is an eternal principle. There are rules, which if applied, will bring about results. Alma explained it in Chapter 32, verse 27. But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Redman, the question is, do you want to believe? If you want to believe, you can.

[Boniface]

redman -

My friend, I understand you better than you realize. Towards the tail end of my time in the LDS church, I was in utter misery because I wanted so bad to believe. I felt that so many people in my ward put such confidence in me, thinking I believed something that I did not. I prayed every night asking God to guide me and mold me into the kind of person he wanted me to be. He most certainly did that, only it turns out that his plan for me did not involve the LDS church afterall. You are not a bad person - you are not spiritually weak or lazy. You are, however, spiritually tired, which is not a bad thing.

You have tried to believe, but you cannot MAKE yourself believe something that you do not. You would be untrue to yourself if you did so. For you, I recommend some time away from the LDS church - attend other church services, learn what they believe, see how they worship, and take time to figure out what you really believe. If your journey leads you back to the LDS church, then that is truly God's place for you. If not, go where the Lord leads you. Do not fear this time - embrace it. It is a chance for you to truly spread your wings and learn to fly. Should this be done properly, your journey will enable you to soar to spiritual highs you have never before experienced and touch the face of God.

May God bless you and guide you during this time of your life.

[redman]

On the contrary, it sounds like you need fellowshipping, and are reaching out for it.

For what it's worth, you certainly have my support.  And, no, I don't think that you are lazy or "possessed by Satan."

I hope that you are able to find some peace, and some support in your Ward.

yeah i wish fellowshipping was all i needed. unfortunately that's not the case. i'm currently a fully active believing mormon to all who know me. FWIW, i like my ward a lot and have great friends there. this has nothing to do with how i've been treated.

i was just speculating based on my own way of viewing people in the past, as well as what i've seen with other people have left, that people will view me with either sadness or anger when they find out how i feel.

thanks for your suppport. i appreciate it.

[charity]

Boniface, as I understand your situation from what you have posted over time, you are a young man without family ties in the Church. Your situation was so different from that of a person with family and wife who are devout members. Redman has such a heavier load than you.

[Guest TJane]

Many of your issues have been discussed on this board many times and, as you say, many of us have seen/read the same material and come to different conclusions as to the truth of the church. So I don't feel the need to reiterate the many things you've already read.

Moral issues such as guilt tripping young boys over masturbation and telling girls they're better off dead than raped

This comment bothered me though - I've been in the church my whole life (48 years now) and I was never taught that it was better to be dead than raped. The thing I was always taught was better to be dead than lose your virtue. Rape is not losing your virtue - rape is a physical attack. And though we were counseled to dress and act with modesty, I've never been taught that being attacked was the fault of the abused, but the fault of the abuser. I know several women who have lived through rape and none of them were ever taught that they lost their virtue.

And teaching young boys (and girls, BTW) that certain activities that are acceptable to society are not acceptable to the Lord, in my opinion, is not guilt-tripping. I think that many churches teach moral values that are not acceptable in the world that we live in now. It's not just our church that teaches high moral values.

I've not been in YW for a while, but I think that in our society the way it is, they should be teaching this more often. I'm related to a couple of people who have had or currently have problems in the 'moral' department and I think as my children continue to grow up, I personally will emphasis it even more in order to help them avoid problems.

I think 'guilt-tripping' is in the ears of the listener - so that teaching that reading scriptures is important may 'guilt tripping' sounding to those who don't read their scriptures. If the Holy Ghost pricks someone's heart to feel guilt unto repentance to change, then I'm all for it.

I bet you've guessed that I'm what would be termed a True-Blue Mormon - at least I've been called that by my formerly-LDS friend in derogatory tones and occasionally by my husband as he goes through his problems in life. I personally would not automatically think that, just because you have come to believe that the church isn't true that you have sins that you're just dying to try.

However, the few people I know personally who have left the church, even though they started out just disagreeing with doctrine or the way certain people acted in the church, they have fallen into many of the practices the church warns us against. I'd caution you to be careful as you move through your doubting that you don't throw the baby out with the bath. Hold on to what you still feel is good about what the church teaches.

Well, I'll get off my little soap box now. I hope you find a way to peace with yourself and with your Heavenly Father.

Jane

[ave maria]

The main issue for me is integrity.  I feel like I can't keep living something that everything inside me is telling me is not true. 

redman--

So many have been where you are now. I've been there. Many on this board have been there.

If the LDS Church is true, nothing you feel about it will change that.

If, on the other hand, the LDS Church is not true, no amount of wanting it to be will make it the authentic Church of Jesus Christ.

Like you, I believe integrity is important. For me, the (LDS) Church didn't fall away in dribs and drabs; I had a singular moment where it was completely clear to me that it simply wasn't what it represented itself to be, and there was no changing it or going back. I didn't experience any "abyss" as charity describes, just a feeling of going into increased light and knowledge. (That is not to say that others might not or do not experience such an abyss, and certainly, those who have spouses and children when they encounter what you're experiencing have a significant added complication.)

I happen to subscribe to the oft-quoted words of Polonius:

"This above all, to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

I wish you luck in your own journey. May you find the strength and grace within yourself to follow the path you must, wherever it leads, and may your family be strong in their love and acceptance of you during that process.

[redman]

Redman, the question is, do you want to believe? If you want to believe, you can.

i guess you missed the title of my post. it says:

"What if you want the Church to be true, but can no longer believe?"

i can want to believe it all i want, but that doesn't make it true, or make me believe it.

that logic just doesn't work. for example, let's say i want to believe the Catholic church is true. if i want it so bad that i start to believe does that make it true?

it only works if you start with the premise that whatever you want to believe is true. it's circular logic. everything that everyone wants to believe can't possibly be true.

[Boniface]

Boniface, as I understand your situation from what you have posted over time, you are a young man without family ties in the Church. Your situation was so different from that of a person with family and wife who are devout members. Redman has such a heavier load than you.

Just because I do not have a family in the church does not mean it was easy to leave at first. Redman can't force himself to believe in something that he truly doesn't believe in no more than I could.

[redman]

But I'm still not clear what you want from this group.

Do I have to want something from you guys? I said in my initial post that I wasn't looking for advice.

My initial question was how faithful members view people like me, who care about the church and live a good life but come to the conclusion that it is false nonetheless.

I didn't start the thread to debate the issues or try to convince anyone or be convinced. It was more for the chance to share some thoughts in an annonymous forum and see what people think.

That said, I appreciate all the replies. It has been a fun conversation and good way to pass the time at hospital tonite. I'm open to any other input, just don't be offended if don't seem interested in changing my views based on your advice.

[Shellyjean]

Wow, I went through the same thing. I loved the church people, structure, culture, etc. I just could no longer go along with the theology/teachings. I hated leaving, cause I think there is a lot about the church to admire and respect. Some of my doubts stemmed from things I knew of in the Bible, some just struck me as wrong. I don't think I ever had a real 'testimony' though, I just wanted the church to be true cause I liked it so darn much! After 3 years though, I couldn't handle the hypocrisy I was guilty of. I still wish I could believe it. I miss Relief society, and testimony meetings (I know that is messed up, but I always hoped that the testimonies would rub off on me, I guess!). I liked the womens meetings, the conferences and totally loved the emphasis on family and decency. The good thing is that LDS people seem to be more forgiving of that loss of testimony than one might think. My LDS friends are still my friends, aquaintances don't look at me cross-eyed and I am free to tell new LDS friends my history with no fear that I will be rejected or proselytised. My new neighbor is LDS and she is torn between being natural with me like I am LDS because I understand the lingo, and not wanting to presume anything upon me or make me uncomfortable. If I was a JW, I would be shunned and folks would pretend I didn't exist. I don't have any answers for you, but I am totally sympathetic to what you are dealing with.

shellyjean

[mateo]

charity Posted on Sep 4 2005, 06:54 PM

Redman, the question is, do you want to believe? If you want to believe, you can.

I think Redman has been pretty clear that he would like to believe in the Church, he understands that it would make his life much easier if he could, but try as he may he hasn't been able to reconcile aspects of the church that keep him from believeing.

Your asking him to suspend his reality does not seem to be healthy advise in my opinion. You are asking him to believe in things that in his heart he does not believe. What kind of shallow belief would that be? It would not be worth anything. He would become like a pathological liar who has the ability to believe the lies he tells and thinks that they are not lies.

Mateo

[redman]

This comment bothered me though - I've been in the church my whole life (48 years now) and I was never taught that it was better to be dead than raped. The thing I was always taught was better to be dead than lose your virtue.

The teaching i've heard on multiple occassions is to "fight for your virtue with your life if needed." (something along those lines anyway)

hmmm. if you are fighting for your life to avoid losing "virtue," that sounds like a rape to me. thus the conclusion that rape leads to loss of virtue.

i know that nowadays, the church has been more careful about emphasizing that the victims are not at fault in cases of sexual abuse and rape, and i think that's great.

but let's apply the doctrine to a non-rape. let's say your (hypothetical) 17 year old daughter finds herself in a passionate situation and ends up having sex. according to the church she has lost her virtue and would have been better off dying than spending a half hour having sex. that strikes me as very sick and wrong. but i guess this would be a good topic for another thread, so i'll leave it at that.

[liz3564]

That said, I appreciate all the replies. It has been a fun conversation and good way to pass the time at hospital tonite.

You mentioned passing time at the hospital. Are you working there, or are you or a loved one sick?

If the situation is the latter, I will keep you and your family in my prayers. I hope everything is ok.

[redman]

You mentioned passing time at the hospital.  Are you working there, or are you or a loved one sick?

If the situation is the latter, I will keep you and your family in my prayers.  I hope everything is ok.

fortunately, i'm just "working" tonite. i haven't done much work as you can tell by my numerous posts. i'm actually a medical student on overnight call tonite, so i may keep posting all through the night

[liz3564]

Whew!

I'm relieved that you and your family are ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

Good luck with staying awake!

[mnn727]

redman, one thing that I have found in many Anti-books or websights is that many times, they all quote each other, making it appear there is a prepondeance of evidence, when really, the original source was one person, who may or may not have been there to witness the event or who reported it decades after it was supposed to have happened, many times after any other person present had passed out of the picture.

Please, do the research yourself and see if the stories really hold water, I have found in digging deep and researching hard(which takes some intense hard work at times), that many stories end up not holding any water at all or are so lacking in evidence that you'd have to really stretch to believe them.

[charity]

Redman, This is too serious a subject to just let it pass, or give it only casual thought. So I have been pondering.

As I posted before, Alma gave a principle with a promise. If you follow his direction, you will receive the blessing. Your topic said "What if you want the Church to be true." Alma said if you want to believe, let the desire work in you.

You have been hearing advice that you can't change your belief. Alma says that is not true. If you can pray that you want to believe, and then do "belief promoting" actions, instead of non-belief promoting actions, you can receive the blessing.

If it sounds too simple, think of Moses and the children of Israel and the fiery serpents. The solution was to look on Moses' staff and live. There were those who refused to take a simple action and died.

I sincerely hope you can get through this rough time. I have confidence that you can.

[redman]

As I posted before, Alma gave a principle with a promise.

[redman]

redman, one thing that I have found in many Anti-books or websights is that many times, they all quote each other, making it appear there is a prepondeance of evidence, when really, the original source was one person, who may or may not have been there to witness the event or who reported it decades after it was supposed to have happened, many times after any other person present had passed out of the picture.

Please, do the research yourself and see if the stories really hold water, I have found in digging deep and researching hard(which takes some intense hard work at times), that many stories end up not holding any water at all or are so lacking in evidence that you'd have to really stretch to believe them.

as i said earlier, i haven't read any "Anti" books. my problems are not just based on little stories that make me uncomfortable.

you could refute all of the historical problems i have, but i would still be unable to believe in a church that, for example, at one time required its members to pantomime their own suicide.

do you see where i'm coming from? the issues are multiple and complex. i'm not just hung up history books.

[Mighty Curelom]

Alma said if you want to believe, let the desire work in you.

You have been hearing advice that you can't change your belief. Alma says that is not true. If you can pray that you want to believe, and then do "belief promoting" actions, instead of non-belief promoting actions, you can receive the blessing.

That's right redman. All you have to do is want to believe with all your heart. Then just go through the motions, acting as if you believe. Spend as much time with people who do believe as you can, and avoid spending time with anone who doesn't. Read faith promoting literature and stay away from anything that isn't faith promoting. Also, bear your testimony in front of other people--even though you don't have one. The way you get one is by bearing it. Listen to your heart, not your brain.

If you follow these simple steps, I guarantee you that you will believe. This method is used in Chinese prison camps, so it's got to work.

Seriously folks--why would God's gospel be so difficult to swallow? I mean, if it's so hard to believe that even someone who wants to believe it, can't, isn't that in and of itself a red flag? And aren't the measures taken by believers to protect their own belief from disenchantment (avoiding critical material, avoiding apostates, avoiding any thoughts which might lead to disbelief, etc.) also an indication that maybe, just maybe, this whole deal isn't true after all? As I've said before, physicists don't have weekly meetings where they reaffirm to each other that gravity is true. Truth doesn't need peer pressure, elaborate rituals, or convoluted and deceptive apologetics.

[Boniface]

As I posted before, Alma gave a principle with a promise.

[redman]

redman, one thing that I have found in many Anti-books or websights is that many times, they all quote each other, making it appear there is a prepondeance of evidence, when really, the original source was one person, who may or may not have been there to witness the event or who reported it decades after it was supposed to have happened, many times after any other person present had passed out of the picture.

one thing that I have found in many Pro-books or websights is that many times, they all quote each other, making it appear there is a prepondeance of evidence, when really, the original source was one person, who may or may not have been there to witness the event or who reported it decades after it was supposed to have happened, many times after any other person present had passed out of the picture.

catch my drift? your argument can easily be used to criticize the "faithful history" presented by the church.

[Dill Pickles]

My initial question was how faithful members view people like me, who care about the church and live a good life but come to the conclusion that it is false nonetheless.

from the Pickle jar: you already know the answer to this question. You were a faithful member yourself until you decided the church was manmade and the leaders are no more inspired than anyone else. How did you view those who didn't believe, when you were faithful? Did you pity them? If they were family, were you ashamed of them? Did you make fun of them? Did you treat their questions lightly, answer their questions flippantly? Were you their friend?

[redman]

How did you view those who didn't believe, when you were faithful? Did you pity them? If they were family, were you ashamed of them? Did you make fun of them? Did you treat their questions lightly, answer their questions flippantly? Were you their friend?

just like many of you on this board, i felt sad for them. i assumed that they had been caught up by Satan and read a bunch of nasty anti-mormon lies. or i assumed that they just couldn't hack it because, after all, the church requires a lot of the elect people on the earth in the last days, and some people are weak.

it's amusing to me now. many of those people had courage and wisdom that i did not have.

[Dill Pickles]

it's amusing to me now. many of those people had courage and wisdom that i did not have.

from the Pickle jar: and now you are so brave and wise too?