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What if you want the church to be true,


redman

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Basically, I'm wondering what the true believers think of people like me.  A few years back, I would have looked at someone like myself and assumed they were lazy or spiritually weak, or were sinning and thus losing the influence of the spirit.  But that really sucks, because I'm basically the same person as before, just with changing religious beliefs, acquired by lots of studying and honest prayer and introspection.

redman,

I'm in pretty much the same situation as you regarding the church. So, I have to put on my former believer's hat to take a stab at your question. A couple of years ago, I would have looked at someone such as yourself as being very proud..."Bro. Redman must think that he knows more than God." Or, I might have thought that there was some sin that you were hiding, or that you never had a "real" testimony to begin with.

I'm sure that different members have different ways of looking at us non-believers. So far I've kept my doubts to myself because of my concern about family repercussions (mainly for my wife and kids). But, I must admit that it is getting more difficult to "play the part" so to speak, and I know the time will come when I will have to be true to myself.

I don't really know if there is a place for the "cultural mormon" in the church. I think too many members view non-believers suspiciously and resent the fact that there are people in the church that aren't doing their fair share of the work.

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Redman I actually chose to continue believing in the Book of Mormon after reading stuff from Signature Book's along with piles of anti-Mormon books. I highly reccomend the book If I Really believe why Do I Have These Doubts by Lynn Anderson. (Amazon.com) Skepticism will follow a skeptic wherever he, or she goes. I like my book because it gives a chronic doubter some hope.

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M. C. sarcastically advocates hypocritical actions. He is off base in thinking that this is what the Church suggests we do. No one should ever say words they don't mean.

Redman, if you really did not mean what your topic question said, then I have been addressing the wrong issue.

The second part, how will people look at you if you leave the Church? Some will probably think you are Satan's child, some will think you are guilty of some secret sin, and some will think you are lazy and just don't have what it takes to be a TBM. The people who make these types of judgements have a lot to look to for their own salvation. But there are others, the real TBM's who will feel very, very sad. Who will love you anyway. Who will never tell you, but will be praying for you every day that you can have a change of heart.

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You are trying to keep a family together, and that is not altogether unwise.

Good point. If not for my wife and daughter, i would have quit probably six months ago, if not sooner.

But I find it hard to swallow that one spouse making an honest and thoughtful life decision should lead to the breakup of a family.

Why does the church teach/imply that?

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it's amusing to me now. many of those people had courage and wisdom that i did not have.

from the Pickle jar: and now you are so brave and wise too?

no i'm just saying that now that i'm in their shoes, i see that what they did may have taken serious courage.

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You are trying to keep a family together, and that is not altogether unwise.

Good point. If not for my wife and daughter, i would have quit probably six months ago, if not sooner.

But I find it hard to swallow that one spouse making an honest and thoughtful life decision should lead to the breakup of a family.

Why does the church teach/imply that?

I'm not certain they do; I couldn't speak to it.

Times have changed.

When the LDS Church was first organized, if a man left his previous faith to convert to Mormonism, his family generally followed (that was not exclusive to Mormonism--it was a common occurrence that entire families more often than not followed the head of household in switching faiths).

Most of us probably have ancestors where this was the case.

It just seems to not be as universally practiced or encouraged now.

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But there are others, the real TBM's who will feel very, very sad. Who will love you anyway. Who will never tell you, but will be praying for you every day that you can have a change of heart.

while i will appreciate the care and concern of those who are saddened by my departure, i find the use of the word "anyway" as a descriptor for how they will love me to be very illustrious.

it's like saying, "he's a murderer, but we'll love him anyway."

there shouldn't have to be an "anyway" attached. if people love me now, they shouldn't love me anyway after they find out about my beliefs. they should just love me without a qualifier.

using that word implies that "apostates" are somehow less worthy of love, yet they will be loved "anyway" by the good people.

i know you didn't mean anything by what you wrote, but it definitely illustrates the mindset i will have to face. i'm guessing my inlaws will be in that category that tries to love me "anyway"

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Redman wrote: "But I find it hard to swallow that one spouse making an honest and thoughtful life decision should lead to the breakup of a family. Why does the church teach/imply that?"

The church doesn't encourage women to leave husbands who leave the Church. But the realities of the situation are such that there are many dynamics which work against a happy marriage in such a situation.

If you leave the Church, and your wife stays devout, she may feel very betrayed. After all, she married a man in the temple, who would be her life's companion, here and hereafter. Now, she isn't going to get that. Whereas two people who are both devout go to church together, to church activities, to the temple, help their children maintain activities in church, now she has become in essence a single mom. Where she knew that raising a child or children in the faith was a challenge, now it has increased 10 fold, because dad is there as an example of not going to church.

She will go through a grieving process for the death of her dream. And this is if her husband maintains church standards, even while not believing. If he begins to adopt more wordly standards, entertainments and shopping on Sunday, R-rated movies in the home, to say nothing of tobacco and alcohol use, there is a heavier load.

If she cannot bear up under the strain and finds that she has to lose her activity and identity in the Church in order to survive in her marriage, she will harbor deep resentments that may not surface for years. But they are there.

Does this sound like someone who has been there, done that? It is. Not personally. Two of my daughters, married in the temple, to men who had been on missions. And then their husbands decided to leave the Church. One of them has an intact marriage. Her husband is fully supportive of every church calling, activity, of their daughters and her. When the children were small, he went to church with her because it is pretty hard of taking care of little kids during sacrament meeting. Now that they are older, he doesn't go. She still loves him, but she grieves.

The other daughter is divorced from that husband after he went after the wordly life and decided supporting a family was interferring with his new lifestyle. Fortunately for her, after a civil and temple divorce, she has married a wonderful man who is as devout as she is.

There is another possiblity. The non-believing spouse belittles and harangues against the church to such an extant that the believing spouse has to leave the church or leave the marriage.

The church leaders will not encourage anyone to leave a spouse, except in cases of abuse. But you can see what lies ahead.

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...

Basically, I'm wondering what the true believers think of people like me.

...

Is there an explanation for people like me?

I would say:

1. You've been believing too much Anti-Mormon material

2. Many people lied about Joseph Smith in his day and many people tried to kill him in his day. All too many are willing to follow in their murderous father's footsteps and continue that job today. As such I read everything from them with a heavy grain of salt.

3. Be not too willing to dive into the world's philosophies, theories etc... There is a true philosphy and it's called God.

4. Turn off the TV.

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>As you can see my doubt shelf was quite full when it finally collapsed

It appears that you did not take the second part of the shelf analogy.

From time to time, you take something off the shelf and examine it.

I see several things on your shelf which have already been addressed and answered. For example, the issue of "reporters and Pres Hinkley" was shown to be a deliberate omission by Time magazine. They put ellipsis in his comments, but denied that anything was missing -- just a "pause" in his comments.

Later investigation showed that they had excluded comments by Pres Hinkley within that quote.

In other situations, our doctrince cannot be contained within a sound-bite which is favored by the media.

Now, because you mistakenly believe in Time magazine, your shelf has "collapsed". The editors of Time will pay the price in eternity for their deception, but do you really want your salvation dependent on such persons?

We have addressed the BOA and many of your issues here and elsewhere.

Perhaps your shelf has collapsed thru indifference, or deliberate disbelief.

How many times, for example, have you even read the Book of Mormon. Have you read the Tanners extensively, and neglected the scriptures?

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>As you can see my doubt shelf was quite full when it finally collapsed

It appears that you did not take the second part of the shelf analogy.

From time to time, you take something off the shelf and examine it.

It's a lot like food storage; you have to rotate through it if you want it to stay fresh. If your doubt shelf is piling up with stagnation, surely it will fall. You gotta keep it rotated:

As cdowis said, take down a doubt and examine it. If you find a reasonable explanation, toss it out. Move onto the next doubt. If you can't find a reasonable explanation for the second doubt, toss it out anyway; you can't afford "doubt build up." Keep repeating this so that your doubt shelf stays fresh. Perhaps the brethren should implement such a "doubt storage" program. :P

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Hi Redman,

Okay, to answer your question.

When I was an active member of the church I noticed that people join the church for a whole variety of reasons, some better than others.

I also noticed that people left the church for a variety of reasons some better than others.

For example (when I was active) if someone left the church because they couldn't give up smoking, or found it difficult to live the law of chastity, but....they still believed in their heart that the church was authentic, then they went against their own internal beliefs and I felt sad.

If a person left the church because someone had offended them, but they still believed the church was authentic then I felt sad too.

Many, many people left the church because they were never really converted in the first place, this was the experience of my parents, who were basically baptised to please some very persuasive missionaries!!!

In your case (which closely resembles my own) you seem to have left, or be thinking about leaving the church because you sincerely don't believe some of it.

You are trying to be true to yourself. I often heard from the pulpit

'be true to yourself'. One can't keep living a lie. (I am referring to someone's internal belief system here)

I've digressed but I think people will think a variety of things of people who choose to leave because they no longer believe. From weakness, sin or the devil, and then the more liberal views, but then you can't really expect much else from an organisation that believes that they have the best way and the only truly authentic way. So you have to understand it from their point of view, even if you don't agree with them.

The most traumatic period for me was when I had to make the mental break. When, on the odd occasion, I still get a few unkind judgements, then I say to myself, well I am doing what I believe to be correct.

Edited to say that interestingly no one really ever asked me why I was leaving, not even my closest friends. Some made judgements, some were kind, but no one asked, not one!!!

So you should think yourself lucky, because at least people here are asking why you left.... :P (mentally if not physically)

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The church doesn't encourage women to leave husbands who leave the Church. But the realities of the situation are such that there are many dynamics which work against a happy marriage in such a situation.

If you leave the Church, and your wife stays devout, she may feel very betrayed.

Neither does the (LDS) Church appear to encourage women to follow the example of Ruth, when she demonstrated unswerving loyalty to her mother-in-law, Naomi:

"Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee, for wither thou goest, I will go, and wither thou lodgest, I will lodge. Thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God."

A woman is generally taught from childhood to submit to the authority of her husband, but when it comes in conflict with the (LDS) Church, she is forced to make a choice.

Where in the past, she'd more likely have followed her husband, and remained loyal to him, that no longer appears to be the common experience. As a result, people become "unequally yoked."

As I stated above, I believe this represents a cultural change as much as a denominational one.

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You are trying to keep a family together, and that is not altogether unwise.

Good point. If not for my wife and daughter, i would have quit probably six months ago, if not sooner.

But I find it hard to swallow that one spouse making an honest and thoughtful life decision should lead to the breakup of a family.

Why does the church teach/imply that?

It doesn't

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She will go through a grieving process for the death of her dream.  And this is if her husband maintains church standards, even while not believing.  If he begins to adopt more wordly standards, entertainments and shopping on Sunday, R-rated movies in the home, to say nothing of tobacco and alcohol use, there is a heavier load. 

If she cannot bear up under the strain and finds that she has to lose her activity and identity in the Church in order to survive in her marriage, she will harbor deep resentments that may not surface for years.  But they are there.

The words of the apostle Paul seem appropriate here:

"If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

And the woman which hath a husband that believeth not, if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart.  A brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean, but now are they holy.

For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? and how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?"--1 Corinthians 7:12-16

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ave

>A woman is generally taught from childhood to submit to the authority of her husband, but when it comes in conflict with the (LDS) Church, she is forced to make a choice.

Perhaps you can tell us what that "choice" is and a suitable reference from LDS sources.

I have never heard any teaching in that regard other than family unity. For example, a woman cannot be baptized without the consent of her husband. If the husband refuses to have HT, and VT, we are bound to respect his wishes.

LDS unmarried women are, however, very much encouraged to marry a temple worthy spouse.

Otherwise, I simply have no idea what you are talking about.

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ave

>A woman is generally taught from childhood to submit to the authority of her husband, but when it comes in conflict with the (LDS) Church, she is forced to make a choice.

Perhaps you can tell us what that "choice" is and a suitable reference from LDS sources.

I have never heard any teaching in that regard other than family unity.  For example, a woman cannot be baptized without the consent of her husband.  If the husband refuses to have HT, and VT, we are bound to respect his wishes. 

LDS unmarried women are, however, very much encouraged to marry a temple worthy spouse.

Otherwise, I simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Just to quote from the personal experience of my parents.

My mother was keener on the church than my father. It was actually breaking up their marriage. As a child I vividly remember their arguments.

A very enlightened brother, told my mother that she should choose the stability of her family over the church. She did. It kept a family together. My mother later admitted that she wasn't sure of the church at all or of Joseph Smith, but that it had offered her peace at a time when her only parent had just died.

I would expect that there are no hard and fast rules, and with a bit of compromise on both sides some kind of status quo can be met. The problems come when one tries to convince the other of their correctness. (that goes for both partners!!)

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So this is my first day posting on this board, but i've been lurking for a while. I wanted to get some opinions from you all.

. . .

I've got just one problem. I do not believe in it anymore. Both my heart and my mind are telling me it's not true.

. . .

Basically, I'm wondering what the true believers think of people like me.

. . .

Is there an explanation for people like me?

I've only read a couple pages in this thread, but I guess I would have to ask where you have focused on and found eternal truth/goodness? And whether the rest matters? Why does what mortals think of you matter as to eternal truth?

"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul

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Now, because you mistakenly believe in Time magazine, your shelf has "collapsed".  The editors of Time will pay the price in eternity for their deception, but do you really want your salvation dependent on such persons?

Perhaps your shelf has collapsed thru indifference, or deliberate disbelief.

How many times, for example, have you even read the Book of Mormon.  Have you read the Tanners extensively, and neglected the scriptures?

this kind of arrogance is exactly what i have been getting at. you assume that i read one article in Time and am now throwing my life away to Satan. Have you not read the rest of my posts? this has been a decision involving heart, soul, mind, logic, love, reason, you name it.

and as for the Time magazine thing, there are multiple other instances such as 60 Minutes, Larry King Live, The New Yorker, etc, etc. i picked up on the inconistencies, denials, and unwillingness to clarify history and doctrine on my own. no "anti-mormon" pointed it out to me. but i didn't start this thread to debate those issues. i'm well aware that many of us process the same material and draw different conclusions.

you accuse me of indifference or "deliberate disbelief." i think you need to get it through your head that there are actually people who DON'T WANT TO DISBELIEVE and live good, worthy lives and disbelieve nonetheless. i know that's hard to accept. it's easier for you to pin some sin or laziness on me, rather than awknowledge the fact that good, righteous, people still leave the church in order to be honest with themselves.

and seriously man, your question about how many times have i read the BOM? does it really matter? the answer is probably at least 2 dozen times. i've read very little material directly from the Tanners.

so there goes your theory. as i have stated before, i have given it my all to believe in this church, and everything inside me tells me it's not true. yet there is no convenient excuse for people like me, who aren't leaving because of laziness or sin.

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charity said: "The church doesn't encourage women to leave husbands who leave the Church. But the realities of the situation are such that there are many dynamics which work against a happy marriage in such a situation.

If you leave the Church, and your wife stays devout, she may feel very betrayed. After all, she married a man in the temple, who would be her life's companion, here and hereafter. Now, she isn't going to get that. Whereas two people who are both devout go to church together, to church activities, to the temple, help their children maintain activities in church, now she has become in essence a single mom. Where she knew that raising a child or children in the faith was a challenge, now it has increased 10 fold, because dad is there as an example of not going to church."

this is the mentality that leads women to think they need to leave their husbands over the church.

i do agree that she will feel betrayed, and i feel bad for her. it's going to suck.

but the part about her becoming a single mom is ridiculous. are all non-LDS men horrible fathers?

not to toot my own horn, but of all the mormon couples we hang out with, my wife has always noticed that i'm much more supportive of her in hobbies, and in raising our daughter than most of the other guys are. many of the guys are downright sexist and they don't even realize it.

so my leaving the church will in no way make her a single mom. i love being a dad. nothing is going to change that. if anything, i will end up with more time to spend with my kids because of less time in church meetings in the long run. not that would be a good reason to leave, but it could be a side benefit. and i'm perfectly willing to continue attending sacrament meeting as a family. i have no problem with that. i won't make my wife go to church alone and get all the looks of pity and sadness, and have everyone asking questions about me. not to mention that i have tons of fun playing with my daughter during church.

i can see how things could be different if were to change my whole identity, lose interest in my family altogether, and become raging alcholic womanizer. but i'm not heading in that direction, not even close.

why do people have to assume that i will be a terrible husband and father, just because i've tried to make an honest life decision?

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Redman, I need to clarify. When I said a single mom, notice I was referring to Church activities. Going to Church alone with your daughter, the activities of Church, etc. Not that you would not be a supportive husband and father in other areas. If you will continue to go to Church with her, that will help some. But she will still feel alone, in that she cannot share her deepest desires and beliefs with the man she loves. Is she going to feel free to share her testimony with others, knowing that you are sitting there, in your heart feeling that she is either not honest or is deceived? I have felt that with my parents, who are not members. Something so important and central to who I am I cannot share with the people I love dearly. I cannot imagine the pain it would be if there were that rift between my husband myself.

Nothing comes without a price. You may feel that your life has improved if you leave the Church. That improvement comes at a terrible cost for your wife.

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