What if you want the church to be true,

[Dill Pickles]

What about the building of zion?

from the puzzled Pickle jar: please elaborate. I don't want to make assumptions about your question.

[Sput]

What about the building of zion?

from the puzzled Pickle jar: please elaborate. I don't want to make assumptions about your question.

hmmmmm......if you were sealed and im sure you didnt skip other ordinances what about those promises and blessings. I mean this kinda tetars on territory i wish not to explore. You being the person that was sealed to his wife not you per say.

[Dill Pickles]

What about the building of zion?

from the puzzled Pickle jar: please elaborate. I don't want to make assumptions about your question.

hmmmmm......if you were sealed and im sure you didnt skip other ordinances what about those promises and blessings. I mean this kinda tetars on territory i wish not to explore. You being the person that was sealed to his wife not you per say.

from the Pickle jar: we were discussing the sealing only and the covenants that are made in the sealing only. Although the same can be said for the endowment, etc. If a member is endowed and never returns to the temple, his/her endowment blessings are still intact, unless he/she commits a sin big enough to have them revoked, even if he/she never returns to the temple. Just because we attend the temple only once doesn't mean we lose our blessings. Some people are lucky if they get to attend even once. More than that is impossible for many members, especially those in 3rd world countries. Predicating blessings on how many times a person goes through a temple session is not God's way of doing business.

Same goes for taking the sacrament, fasting, etc. My MIL was in a rest home for 3 months. She never attended church at all during that time. Were her blessings revoked? Not even! People whose circumstances make it impossible to attend church don't lose their blessings because they don't take the sacrament every week. Even people who go inactive don't lose the blessings that go with the ordinances completed, just because they are inactive or even if they attend a different church. The blessing is earned as the spirit dictates at the time of the ordinance. They may not receive further blessings, but the blessings they had at the time of the ordinance are intact until the ordinance is revoked.

[Sput]

What about the building of zion?

from the puzzled Pickle jar: please elaborate. I don't want to make assumptions about your question.

hmmmmm......if you were sealed and im sure you didnt skip other ordinances what about those promises and blessings. I mean this kinda tetars on territory i wish not to explore. You being the person that was sealed to his wife not you per say.

from the Pickle jar: we were discussing the sealing only and the covenants that are made in the sealing only. Although the same can be said for the endowment, etc. If a member is endowed and never returns to the temple, his/her endowment blessings are still intact, unless he/she commits a sin big enough to have them revoked, even if he/she never returns to the temple. Just because we attend the temple only once doesn't mean we lose our blessings. Some people are lucky if they get to attend even once. More than that is impossible for many members, especially those in 3rd world countries. Predicating blessings on how many times a person goes through a temple session is not God's way of doing business.

Same goes for taking the sacrament, fasting, etc. My MIL was in a rest home for 3 months. She never attended church at all during that time. Were her blessings revoked? Not even! People whose circumstances make it impossible to attend church don't lose their blessings because they don't take the sacrament every week. Even people who go inactive don't lose the blessings that go with the ordinances completed, just because they are inactive or even if they attend a different church. The blessing is earned as the spirit dictates at the time of the ordinance. They may not receive further blessings, but the blessings they had at the time of the ordinance are intact until the ordinance is revoked.

I never said it depended on attendance but if the person no longer believes which is fine and no longer helping to build the kingdom of zion then how can you recieve the blessings. And are we not talking about making the desicion not to attand or believe anymore. Thats a desicion not being stuck in a rest home. Maybe im not catching your drift.

[Dill Pickles]

What about the building of zion?

from the puzzled Pickle jar: please elaborate. I don't want to make assumptions about your question.

hmmmmm......if you were sealed and im sure you didnt skip other ordinances what about those promises and blessings. I mean this kinda tetars on territory i wish not to explore. You being the person that was sealed to his wife not you per say.

from the Pickle jar: we were discussing the sealing only and the covenants that are made in the sealing only. Although the same can be said for the endowment, etc. If a member is endowed and never returns to the temple, his/her endowment blessings are still intact, unless he/she commits a sin big enough to have them revoked, even if he/she never returns to the temple. Just because we attend the temple only once doesn't mean we lose our blessings. Some people are lucky if they get to attend even once. More than that is impossible for many members, especially those in 3rd world countries. Predicating blessings on how many times a person goes through a temple session is not God's way of doing business.

Same goes for taking the sacrament, fasting, etc. My MIL was in a rest home for 3 months. She never attended church at all during that time. Were her blessings revoked? Not even! People whose circumstances make it impossible to attend church don't lose their blessings because they don't take the sacrament every week. Even people who go inactive don't lose the blessings that go with the ordinances completed, just because they are inactive or even if they attend a different church. The blessing is earned as the spirit dictates at the time of the ordinance. They may not receive further blessings, but the blessings they had at the time of the ordinance are intact until the ordinance is revoked.

I never said it depended on attendance but if the person no longer believes which is fine and no longer helping to build the kingdom of zion then how can you recieve the blessings. And are we not talking about making the desicion not to attand or believe anymore. Thats a desicion not being stuck in a rest home. Maybe im not catching your drift.

from the Pickle jar: until the person does something that revokes the blessings (and there are very few behaviors that will get the blessings revoked), they are intact, even if they are inactive, even if they join another church. Only if they are excommunicated are the blessings revoked. Excommunication severes all blessings and covenants.

Whether or not the person subsequently believes in the covenants at some future point after the covenant is made is immaterial. The blessings attached are not revoked unless the ordinance is revoked. And ordinances cannot be revoked except under specific circumstances. Redman's blessings are intact until he either repudiates them via resigning his membership or until the church revokes them upon his excommunication. He may decide to never take the sacrament again, may never say another prayer, may never pay another dime in tithing, and the blessings he earned via the ordinances he's already accepted are still intact. And his sealing to his wife via the covenant made between them is still intact.

[randyc]

The blessings attached are not revoked unless the ordinance is revoked

This is interesting.

[charity]

Dill wrote: "Redman's blessings are intact until he either repudiates them via resigning his membership or until the church revokes them upon his excommunication. He may decide to never take the sacrament again, may never say another prayer, may never pay another dime in tithing, and the blessings he earned via the ordinances he's already accepted are still intact. And his sealing to his wife via the covenant made between them is still intact."

The potential for the blessing of the marriage covenent is there. But it won't make any difference to the Redmans. The only place where the sealing of spouses works is in the Celestial Kingdom. If Redman never goes to Church again, never pays tithing, etc. he won't get to the Celestial Kingdom because he has not endured to the end. So, if he isn't in the Celestial Kingdom, the sealing won't matter. It's like having a ticket to a football game. You have the ticket in your hand, but if you don't go to the stadium and present it at the gate, you don't get to see the game.

[StBalthasar]

The potential for the blessing

[ave maria]

It's like having a ticket to a football game. You have the ticket in your hand, but if you don't go to the stadium and present it at the gate, you don't get to see the game.

And if there is no game, you're up (Dawson's) Creek.

[charity]

Ave, but if you listen to rumors that the game was cancelled and don't show up at the stadium with your ticket, and there reallly was a game, are you ever going to be sorry!

[Abulafia]

Ave, but if you listen to rumors that the game was cancelled and don't show up at the stadium with your ticket, and there reallly was a game, are you ever going to be sorry!

Charity, in my sincere opinion, and I may be wrong, the only ticket you will need is you. You, you are the ticket.

[Nephi]

Charity, in my sincere opinion, and I may be wrong, the only ticket you will need is you. You, you are the ticket.

Charity's point is that if you don't believe that the game exists, even if you are the ticket, you won't be there, nor will you know how to get there in the first place.

[Abulafia]

Charity, in my sincere opinion, and I may be wrong, the only ticket you will need is you. You, you are the ticket.

Charity's point is that if you don't believe that the game exists, even if you are the ticket, you won't be there, nor will you know how to get there in the first place.

Thanks Nephi. I guess I didn't read the posts well enough!!

Abulafia

[ave maria]

Ave, but if you listen to rumors that the game was cancelled and don't show up at the stadium with your ticket, and there reallly was a game, are you ever going to be sorry!

My head is spinning with all this football imagery.

I guess what you really want to say is that some of us will be in the cheap seats, some in the bleachers, and some in the air-conditioned boxes with the VIP's.

And some will be out in the parking lot tail-gaiting.

I guess, like others, the concept here of "buying a ticket" is troublesome to me, and reduces cosmology more to the ridiculous than the sublime.

[Boniface]

Ave, but if you listen to rumors that the game was cancelled and don't show up at the stadium with your ticket, and there reallly was a game, are you ever going to be sorry!

Lucky for me, I'm in the marching band. We not only get in for free (and have the best seats in the house!) we are also one of the first ones to find out if the game is canceled (an hour and a half to game time, by the way! GO STATE! BEAT THE IRISH!). I always win

[Dill Pickles]

The potential for the blessing

[charity]

Boniface: It must be the total way that football practice and games runs my household while my grandson is playing football. I will try to cease and desist from any more football metaphors.

St. B. I must defend myself. I have two inactive sons, and an inactive son-in-law, daughter-in-law and two of my 3 adult grandchildren are also inactive. They don't think of me as unaccepting. They call me on the phone, visit me, etc.

When we are having a discussion on the board, then I feel that certain truths need to be stated and certain inaccuracies corrected. I certainly hope that God's mercy outweight justice in any case I can think of. (Well, maybe except for the guy who steals someone else's lunch out of the fridge at work! ) But it is also true that great damage may be done to someone who gets the wrong idea about what God expects.

The truth is that He has said that it doesn't matter what we do--be baptized, go to the temple for sealings, do many good works,--if we do not endure to the end, we forfeit any blessings we would have qualified ourselves for.

Dill Pickle said once you get the blessings they are in force no matter what. So we all get baptized, go to temple, then leave the Church, go about our business, not God's business and in the end expect exalatation? That is flat out wrong. What if someone relies on that? If we will receive indescribable joy if we bring one soul to Christ, what will be the pain if we lead one soul away?

And Dill Pickle, you know very well that no one is condemned to hell. Your constant reference to that phrase is inflammatory. Except for the sons of Perdition, everyone merits a kingdom of glory and you know it.

And what is our responsibility when these things happen? Of course, as you said, "To be loving and to be supportive, to be respectful, to be kind, to offer love unfeigned, to give the shirt off our back."

It is not our place to judge anyone. God is the judge. But we are held accountable for our words, and what we teach. If we teach contrary to God's word, we will be held to account. When you teach, as you are doing in your posts, that it really doesn't matter what you do in life after you receive the saving ordinances, that is wrong, and I hope anyone who relies on it, will receive the blessings they would have had had they been better instructed. And I hope you do not lose blessings you would have had because of the consequence of your false teaching.

[Dill Pickles]

from the Pickle jar:

charity says:

The truth is that He has said that it doesn't matter what we do--be baptized, go to the temple for sealings, do many good works,--if we do not endure to the end, we forfeit any blessings we would have qualified ourselves for.

Then I suggest that someone had better tell our leaders to cease trying get people to return to fellowship with the Saints, because they're out of line with charity's interpretation of scriptures. Those people have already forfeited any blessings they might have accumulated during their covenant years. And someone had also better let whoever writes the CHI that charity says to take out the part about how it's not an excommunicatable offense to join another church. Charity says that's wrong. And while they're at it, they might want to change the part about exactly what can and cannot cancel sealings and other ordinances. Charity says they're wrong about that too.

Charity, I'm wondering how it is I could have missed the meeting when you were set apart as prophet. I must have been stuck in an egg carton with the lid shut, because you are 'way out of where the current leadership is taking us. We haven't had a general conference in years wherein a leader of some sort didn't tell us that we're to never give up on our friends, our family, our neighbors, that we're to not judge their worthiness or God's forgiveness of anyone's sins. Somehow us judging if someone is enduring to the end doesn't fit in with the direction our general conferences have been going lately.

And forfeiting blessings? What are you talking about? How can someone forfeit that which they've already been given? Is God going to take back the blessing of being a parent? ("I'm disappointed in you, Dill Pickle. And because I'm so disappointed in you, I'm taking your last Pickle, the Mustard one that you love so much, and giving him to the Asparagus Family. You are no longer his parent because you didn't endure good enough."... Somehow I just don't think God works that way, charity.) Is he going to renig on the blessing of healing a sick child, so if I fall away, my son who was miraclously healed will instantly die instead? What about all his children? What about his pregnant wife? Is God going to take away the blessing he sent when he guided someone to a certain decision, like when I was blessed to be able to overcome some huge obstacles to me marrying my Sweet Pickle? Is that all gone, once you've determined that someone hasn't endured to the end enough?

I have been one of the 99 and I have been a 1. When I was a 99, I gained many blessings. When I was a 1, I was also blessed. God doesn't stop loving the 1, just because they're a 1. The windows of heaven are still raining down blessings on me, even when I'm stubborn, ornery, mean, or lacking in discernment. God still carries me, even when I'm in despair, tired, depressed, or don't acknowledge that he's there. And he rejoices when I am once again among the 99. He doesn't give up on me, and I don't give up on myself. I cannot imagine giving up on any of my children, even though one is inactive. Enduring to the end means something different to each person. Being true to oneself is a big part of enduring to the end. And I am not about to tell anyone else how they must do that.

Dill Pickle said once you get the blessings they are in force no matter what.  So we all get baptized, go to temple, then leave the Church, go about our business, not God's business and in the end expect exalatation? That is flat out wrong.  What if someone relies on that?  If we will receive indescribable joy if we bring one soul to Christ, what will be the pain if we lead one soul away?

What is exaltation, charity? Are you talking about being assigned to the CK? Because that's not exaltation, that's an example of a possible exaltation. The Atonement gave us all salvation, broke the chains of death, freed us from the grave, gave us all eternal life. That's salvation. And by the grace of God and his good judgment, we all receive our own exaltation. He assigns us our kingdom, based on the lives we live. So no matter what we do, we can all expect some sort of exaltation.

So YES, we do the ordinances, we live our lives, and even if we never set foot in a church house or temple after the ordinances are done and the covenants made, we can all expect an assigned exaltation. Our eternal blessings and our eternal exaltation are intact. We get what we earn. God is fair. Life may not be fair, but God is.

When you teach, as you are doing in your posts, that it really doesn't matter what you do in life after you receive the saving ordinances, that is wrong, and I hope anyone who relies on it, will receive the blessings they would have had had they been better instructed.

I never said that. That you interpreted that does not mean that's what I said. What I said is, we get the blessings we're worthy to receive and the exaltation that God sees fit to give us. And until we break our covenants, our blessings assigned with that covenant are intact. Maybe you and I aren't agreeing on what it means to break the covenants? (I'm thinking the biggies that will get a person excommunicated. What are you thinking that means?)

[Boniface]

Boniface: It must be the total way that football practice and games runs my household while my grandson is playing football. I will try to cease and desist from any more football metaphors.

Charity, I actually enjoyed the football comparisons, I was just trying to be difficult. It was also appropriate in my case, given the big game today. If anyone caught the MSU v. Notre Dame game today, yours truly was sitting right in the end zone with the Spartan Marching Band! GO STATE!

[ave maria]

Ave, but if you listen to rumors that the game was cancelled and don't show up at the stadium with your ticket, and there  reallly was a game, are you ever going to be sorry!

Lucky for me, I'm in the marching band. We not only get in for free (and have the best seats in the house!) we are also one of the first ones to find out if the game is canceled (an hour and a half to game time, by the way! GO STATE! BEAT THE IRISH!). I always win

I just wanna know. . .

WHAT SECTION?

Are you on the drum line???

[charity]

Come on Dill, I know you have something against me, although I can't for the life of me, figure out what. But you cannot be that misunderstanding of what I am trying to say.

Define: exaltaion = exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom since we were talking of the sealing of spouses, there isn't any such sealing in the other kingdoms, to my understanding. Your "charity says the prophets, the Church, etc. is wrong" is so ridiculous your dill is becoming very sour to the taste.

Of course, everyone has a chance to repent and come back to full fellowship. That opportunity may even extend past this life into the paradise/prison period as well, which someone on another post said.

We don't judge. We don't say when someone is enduring to the end or not. But we can say what Heavenly Father has taught us about it, and the guidelines we use to conform our actions to what He expects of us. Why do we have General Conference at all if all we have to do is get ourselves baptized and to the temple, and then go off on our own and think we have done all we need to do?

Forfeiting blessings already given? I can't believe you thought that. No one loses blessings they had for the tithing they paid, but they lose the opportunity for blessings they could have had if they had continued to pay tithing.

If you forsake activity in the Church, stop going to Church, stop praying, don't pay tithing, stop listening to the Prophet, maybe join another Church, then there may come a time, MAY come a time if you do not repent, when God may very well say "I'm gave you every chance to prove you would follow Me, and you chose not to. Therefore, in accordance with eternal law, you have not merited having Mrs Pickle and all your little Pickles as your family in the highest kingdom of the Celestial world. They chose to follow Me and obey my commandments and have merited the Celestial glory, so they deserve to have as husband and father someone who did."

You wrote: "Maybe you and I aren't agreeing on what it means to break the covenants? (I'm thinking the biggies that will get a person excommunicated. What are you thinking that means?)"

The baptismal covenant is we take upon ourselves the name of Christ, we always remember Him, and we keep His commandments. If we fail in these, we break the covenant. Similarly, we break the covenants we make in the temple, if we do not keep them. Excommunicable offenses are found within the commandments. But we can break the covenants, without being excommunicated, or doing something that brings us in front of a court.

I am sure everyone who knows you delights that when you were the 1 when you came back to the fold. I am postively sure that God never stopped loving you even when you were that 1. As one of the 99 He expects you to live His law as completely as you can, stumbling, repenting, coming back to Him when you don't.

But being true to oneself is not the goal. Being true to God is the goal. Sometimes that self is an enemy to God. We shouldn't give one thought to what our own or someone else's version of enduring to the end is. It is God's version that we should be concerned about. And He has told us over and over what that is.

I would not like to be in the shoes of anyone who teaches a person that he/she does not have to be diligent in keeping the commandments.

[Boniface]

Ave, but if you listen to rumors that the game was cancelled and don't show up at the stadium with your ticket, and there

[ave maria]

But being true to oneself is not the goal. Being true to God is the goal.

Goals? Footballs?

Again, I fear your imagery doesn't fit my cosmology, while it might yours (and that's the important thing).

I'd simply revise your last sentence, and rather than say, "Being true to God is the goal," I'd say, "Loving (God/others/neighbors/self) is the journey."

[charity]

Ave, I think we are closer in real meaning. But however we phrase it, goal or journey, at least we agree that the purpose is not to focus on self, but outward toward God and others. Matt 16:24-26

[ave maria]

and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

I would agree, charity, except that the statement above doesn't sound much like trying to "acquire a ticket."