19 replies to this topic

[Lamanite]

Just curious, do you think Sarah knew where and why Abraham was taking Isaac?  Why?


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Lamanite

[volgadon]

Lamanite, on 20 August 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Just curious, do you think Sarah knew where and why Abraham was taking Isaac?  Why?


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Lamanite

I don't think she knew, but in one Medieval Jewish poem, "Et Shaarei Ratzon," she has the feeling that something is amiss, but doesn't know what.

[Lamanite]

volgadon, on 20 August 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

I don't think she knew, but in one Medieval Jewish poem, "Et Shaarei Ratzon," she has the feeling that something is amiss, but doesn't know what.

I seem to think she knew.  I can't imagine Abraham withholding something of this magnitude from his wife of 75+yrs.  Especially since he could point to "God" having commanded him.

On the other hand, most women I've talked to said that revelation or no revelation there would be no way Abraham would've left the house with Isaac.  lol.

Thanks for the reference to the poem.

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Lamanite

[volgadon]

Lamanite, on 20 August 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

I seem to think she knew.  I can't imagine Abraham withholding something of this magnitude from his wife of 75+yrs.  Especially since he could point to "God" having commanded him.

On the other hand, most women I've talked to said that revelation or no revelation there would be no way Abraham would've left the house with Isaac.  lol.

Thanks for the reference to the poem.

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Lamanite

The flipside is that he might not have known how to break it to her. After all, Isaac didn't know either.

[Lamanite]

volgadon, on 20 August 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

The flipside is that he might not have known how to break it to her. After all, Isaac didn't know either.

This is true.  Do you think Isaac ever knew?

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Lamanite

[volgadon]

Lamanite, on 20 August 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

This is true.  Do you think Isaac ever knew?

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Lamanite

Quite possibly not before Abraham started trussing him up, not that this plain reading is free of interperative problems.

[calmoriah]

volgadon, on 20 August 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

After all, Isaac didn't know either.

Perhaps not right away, but surely he must have known when it came time.

Some men have strange ideas about protecting women's feelings, thinking that it is better to hide things from them that will be much worse in the long run when they find out.  Most of the time I suspect it is less about protecting the woman's feelings and more about avoiding unpleasant 'emotional' scenes.  

I cannot imagine how I would react in that specific situation so I am not even going to attempt to deal with this specific case, but I can imagine how I would feel if my husband took my son on a trip where he knew our son was not going to be able to come home again for a long time, perhaps forever and I would be furious about not being able to say goodbye knowing that the separation was more than just temporary even if that meant I suffered pain of the separation for a much longer time.  If I never did get a chance to see my son again, I might never forgive my husband for that.

I think whether or not Abraham shared with her what was going on would depend on what Abraham was thinking was going to be the likely outcome as well as it depending on if he was mature enough to face Sarah's pain.  Considering how he responded to the argument between Sarah and Hagar I am not too sure he was all that comfortable dealing with women, no matter his age (or because of it perhaps).

Edited by calmoriah, 20 August 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[Lamanite]

volgadon, on 20 August 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Quite possibly not before Abraham started trussing him up, not that this plain reading is free of interperative problems.

I've found that among Mormons the consensus is that Isaac knew well before he was prepped for sacrifice.  If you agree what do you think the source of this interpretation is?

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Lamanite

[Lamanite]

calmoriah, on 20 August 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Perhaps not right away, but surely he must have known when it came time.

Some men have strange ideas about protecting women's feelings, thinking that it is better to hide things from them that will be much worse in the long run when they find out.  Most of the time I suspect it is less about protecting the woman's feelings and more about avoiding unpleasant 'emotional' scenes.  I cannot imagine how I would react in that specific situation, but I can imagine how I would feel if my husband took my son on a trip where he knew our son was not going to be able to come home again for a long time, perhaps forever and I would be furious about not being able to say goodbye knowing that the separation was more than just temporary even if that meant I suffered pain of the separation for a much longer time.  If I never did get a chance to see my son again, I might never forgive my husband.

I think whether or not Abraham shared with her what was going on would depend on what Abraham was thinking was going to be the likely outcome as well as it depending on if he was mature enough to face Sarah's pain.  Considering how he responded to the argument between Sarah and Hagar I am not too sure he was all that comfortable dealing with women, no matter his age (or because of it perhaps).

Projecting myself into a feminine mindset I've come up with similar thoughts, feelings, and reactions.  I think once I also insert her age, difficulty of pregnancy, experience with Hagar and a few more variables I am left with a highly volatile situation.

If Abraham did keep this a secret from her I can understand why.  However, knowing what this would mean to his dear wife, I don't know how he couldn't have just opened up his entire being and sought her out, both to inform her but to also receive and give comfort.

I shared this story with my 13yr old last night and for some reason reacted with an unusual amount of emotion and empathy.  What an incredible experience it was for me.  Walked away with a cup that was truly overflowing.


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Lamanite

[volgadon]

Lamanite, on 20 August 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I've found that among Mormons the consensus is that Isaac knew well before he was prepped for sacrifice.  If you agree what do you think the source of this interpretation is?

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Lamanite

It is rooted in traditional Jewish and Christian exegesis.

[KevinG]

Isaac was a teenager.  She probably encouraged the sacrifice.  In fact the miracle was that the angel was able to stay Abraham's hand.

[calmoriah]

You know there is someone out there that will be determined to take that the wrong way.  

[KevinG]

calmoriah, on 21 August 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

You know there is someone out there that will be determined to take that the wrong way.  

They are my primary audience.  

[Ron Beron]

My impression through some reading on this is that Isaac not only knew, but encouraged his father to continue not in rebellion, but in agreement.  In Gen 22:8 it reads, "Isaac said to his father Abraham, ¹⁷ “My father?” “What is it, ¹⁸ my son?” he replied. “Here is the fire and the wood,” Isaac said, ¹⁹ “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 22:8 “God will provide ²⁰ for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son,” Abraham replied. The two of them continued on together."  This last sentence indicated, at least according to some midrashes, of Isaac's acceptance.  The Hebrew renders together as yadaw or "as one".  More importantly, Isaac was presumably not a child, but an adult male in his thirties fully capable of understanding that which was soon to befall him.

We can only guess about Sarah, but it is interesting to note that in the following chapter we are told that Sarah dies.  The assumption is that Sarah upon hearing of the aqedah (the binding) dies from grief.  A midrash states that satan came to Sarah in form of Isaac and says, "My son, what has your father done to you?” He answered her: “Father took me and raised me up to the mountains and brought me down into the valleys. He took me up to the top of one mountain, built an altar, arranged the woodpile, and placed the logs. He bound me on the altar and took a knife to slaughter me. If God had not told him: ‘Do not raise your hand against the boy,’ I would already be slaughtered.” Satan did not finish speaking, and Sarah passed away (Tanhuma, Vayera 23).  Another midrash says that Abraham rushed back from Mt. Moriah to mourn the death of his wife;: “And Abraham proceeded [va-yavo, literally, and he came] to mourn for Sarah”—where did he come from? from Mount Moriah (Gen. Rabbah 58:5)."

[Traela]

Lamanite, on 20 August 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I've found that among Mormons the consensus is that Isaac knew well before he was prepped for sacrifice.  If you agree what do you think the source of this interpretation is?

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Lamanite

If it is supposed to be a type of Jesus' sacrifice, then Isaac pretty much has to have been a willing participant.

I rather like the Quran's version of this story.  While it substitutes Ishmael for Isaac, it gives an idea of how things might have happened.  Basically:

Abraham: God wants me to sacrifice you.  What do you think?
Ishmael/Isaac:  Huh.  Well, if that's what God wants, then I guess we better do it.

[zerinus]

Traela, on 21 August 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

If it is supposed to be a type of Jesus' sacrifice, then Isaac pretty much has to have been a willing participant.

I rather like the Quran's version of this story.  While it substitutes Ishmael for Isaac, it gives an idea of how things might have happened.  Basically:

Abraham: God wants me to sacrifice you.  What do you think?
Ishmael/Isaac:  Huh.  Well, if that's what God wants, then I guess we better do it.

I am inclined to agree. My personal opinion is that Sarah was not told. It was easier to spare her the pain, and just break the news to her after the deed had been accomplished. I think that Isaac was not initially told either, until they got to the spot where it was to be accomplished; but I think that Isaac's consent need to be obtained. I don't think God would have commanded Abraham to take Isaac by violance and sacrifice him. He was old enough to have an agency of his own, and agree or disagree to the proposal; and I don't think that God would have violated his agency to offer him as a sacrifice.

Edited by zerinus, 21 August 2012 - 01:16 PM.

[urroner]

KevinG, on 21 August 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Isaac was a teenager.  She probably encouraged the sacrifice.  In fact the miracle was that the angel was able to stay Abraham's hand.

Issac was not a teenager.  Of that, I'm totally certain and here is my proof.  If you can refute it, please make the efforts, but you will fail.

Proof: If Issac had been a teenager, it wouldn't have been a sacrifice, it would have been a pleasure and a relief and Abraham would have complain bitterly if asked to still the knife.  He would have demanded two or maybe three stabs.

[robuchan]

Sorry for the tangent, but is it hard even for believers to dissect the Old Testament this way?  The story of Abraham and Sarah and Isaac was a story passed down from generation to generation for centuries before it was written, right?  We don't believe they were recorded using revelation, do we?  When LDS scholars talk about the specifics of a story like that, are they talking theoretically about what the characters in the Old Testament account would be feeling, or are they talking about what actual people named Abraham and Sarah and Isaac would have been feeling?

[Gohan]

From what I remember of what Josephus said, he put Issac at about 25 when the event occurred and had him as a willing participant once Abraham explained what he'd been commanded to do:

Quote

3. As soon as the altar was prepared, and Abraham had laid on the wood, and all things were entirely ready, he said to his son, "O son, I poured out a vast number of prayers that I might have thee for my son; when thou wast come into the world, there was nothing that could contribute to thy support for which I was not greatly solicitous, nor any thing wherein I thought myself happier than to see thee grown up to man's estate, and that I might leave thee at my death the successor to my dominion; but since it was by God's will that I became thy father, and it is now his will that I relinquish thee, bear this consecration to God with a generous mind; for I resign thee up to God who has thought fit now to require this testimony of honor to himself, on account of the favors he hath conferred on me, in being to me a supporter and defender.
Accordingly thou, my son, wilt now die, not in any common way of going out of the world, but sent to God, the Father of all men, beforehand, by thy own father, in the nature of a sacrifice. I suppose he thinks thee worthy to get clear of this world neither by disease, neither by war, nor by any other severe way, by which death usually comes upon men, but so that he will receive thy soul with prayers and holy offices of religion, and will place thee near to himself, and thou wilt there be to me a succorer and supporter in my old age; on which account I principally brought thee up, and thou wilt thereby procure me God for my Comforter instead of thyself."
4. Now Isaac was of such a generous disposition as became the son of such a father, and was pleased with this discourse; and said, "That he was not worthy to be born at first, if he should reject the determination of God and of his father, and should not resign himself up readily to both their pleasures; since it would have been unjust if he had not obeyed, even if his father alone had so resolved." So he went immediately to the altar to be sacrificed.

As for Sarah, Josephus didn't seem to make any indication that she'd had foreknowledge of it, and just makes the mention that she died a short time later.

Don't know how accurate a source he is these days, but that's what he had to say about it.

[Pa Pa]

Lamanite, on 20 August 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Just curious, do you think Sarah knew where and why Abraham was taking Isaac?  Why?


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Lamanite

I doubt anything if you read scripture...but Abraham never lived with her again, so maybe everything. In the OT he did not return home after, but did when she died.