Bullying The Church Into Submission

[bluebell]

I hope one day to hear more women speak at conference for both men and women. There are some powerful voices among women and I believe would do alot of good for our younger women.

I'm going to say something about this and I hope I don't derail, in Young Women's they are extra heavy on dressing properly now. My neighbor's daughter has a swimsuit that is a tankini and it showed just a little bit of skin, but her mom said she wouldn't wear to the church pool party for fear she'd be judged so she dug out her whole piece swimming suit. I think women need to put a stop to this and see that women aren't or shouldn't be looked at as sex objects, a little skin should not be something that the men should be afraid of. It seems that we are going backwards and it's scaring me to death. We shouldn't get anywhere near the mindset of the Muslims and the wearing of the burka in countries like India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. They didn't always have to wear burkas, it evolved that way. I hate to compare but it has bothered me and I combine this mindset to the mindset that women in the church have less power than they did in the early church that Joseph Smith set up.

YW are encouraged to wear clothing that is modest, including swimsuits. YW leaders should support the teachings of the church on the subject and set boundaries at YW activities so that the YW know what is expected of them. No girl should ever be made to feel unwelcome at YW's for wearing clothing that shows too much skin, but that doesn't mean that standards should be relaxed to make sure that doesn't ever happen.

It's impossible to comment on the swimsuit of your friend's daughter since what one mother deems 'a tiny bit of skin' another might find offensive. No girl is going to be emotionally tramatized because she had to wear a one-piece though unless other people make a big deal about it.

[bluebell]

There is a common link between the Saints who try to counsel the church on changing policies to suit them and those who insist on going beyond policies to enforce extra rules (i.s. one piece swimsuits).

They are steadying the arc or assuming authority they don't have to fix problems that don't exist.

I would not use the word bullying to describe the complaints of the disaffected.

I would use murmuring. http://www.lds.org/s....11?lang=eng#10

YW leaders do have authority to set such standards. When i served as YW's president, we were specifically asked to ensure that modest dress (including swimsuits and summer clothing) was maintained at all church functions by the Stake YW leaders and our bishop.

[sethpayne]

Sethpayne:

http://mormon.org/fa...n-in-the-church

Thanks TSTS

I've seen that quote from President Hinckley before. What I'm wondering about is in what revelation or scripture the "Lord put it that way." I suppose there may be a non-canonized revelation given to BY or JS.

[mapman]

I don't have much respect for people who are trying to change the church because they want it to be like other churches or organizations. I do think it is a wonderful thing when people draw on church history and doctrine to try to find ways to help women to have more of the power of God. If we are going to give women more power it should be distinctive and through revelation, not borrowed from the philosophies of men.

EDIT: Just to clarify, by "power" I'm referring to gifts of the spirit and things like that, not necessarily human power.

Edited August 17, 2012 by mapman

[USU78]

I didn't think women had the priesthood. Then I went to the temple. I was disabused of my childish notion.

[CASteinman]

The article seems to make some ridiculous claims but I don't see it being a shaming sort of thing.

However, the techniques of Saul Alinsky -- not unique to him but compiled into a sort of doctrine by him -- are used for "social reform" including the Church. So you can expect to see his techniques attempted.

I would not have a huge problem with women in the Priesthood -- I don't think its a good idea. I don't think my reasoning is simply traditional, but I suspect it would appear that way to activists. HOWEVER, I note that the scriptures do not authorize this (indeed they clearly indicate that people called and ordained to offices in the priesthood are to be male) and in eternity, Heavenly Mother has a role that does not appear to be within the priesthood structure as contained in the Church, yet she must in some way exercise priesthood -- and I think She would be an exemplar. I think women in the Temple exercise priesthood as well.

I do not detect any significant movement (or even a trivial movement) within the wards and stakes of Zion among the women for more Priesthood Offices. I think claims of such a movement are exaggerations for effect by a relative handful of activists.

[thesometimesaint]

Sethpayne:

I know of nothing in canon that precludes women from the Priesthood. But we do tend to accept the status quo until told otherwise by God.

[tyler90az]

Why does a Priesthood holder always have to be at a gathering of women? That seems rather degrading and something that can be easily done away with. As a twenty two year old I am sure the women are like why does this kid have to be in the building. I have never done it, but for that very reason I avoid the assignments of that sort.

[Tacenda]

I don't have much respect for people who are trying to change the church because they want it to be like other churches or organizations. I do think it is a wonderful thing when people draw on church history and doctrine to try to find ways to help women to have more of the power of God. If we are going to give women more power it should be distinctive and through revelation, not borrowed from the philosophies of men.

EDIT: Just to clarify, by "power" I'm referring to gifts of the spirit and things like that, not necessarily human power.

But what many are saying in the communities mentioned in the Trib article,is that through philosophies of men policies have been changed since the early years of the church.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Tacenda

[happy]

Sethpayne:

I know of nothing in canon that precludes women from the Priesthood. But we do tend to accept the status quo until told otherwise by God.

1 Timothy 2:12

[ERayR]

I hope one day to hear more women speak at conference for both men and women. There are some powerful voices among women and I believe would do alot of good for our younger women.

I'm going to say something about this and I hope I don't derail, in Young Women's they are extra heavy on dressing properly now. My neighbor's daughter has a swimsuit that is a tankini and it showed just a little bit of skin, but her mom said she wouldn't wear to the church pool party for fear she'd be judged so she dug out her whole piece swimming suit. I think women need to put a stop to this and see that women aren't or shouldn't be looked at as sex objects, a little skin should not be something that the men should be afraid of. It seems that we are going backwards and it's scaring me to death. We shouldn't get anywhere near the mindset of the Muslims and the wearing of the burka in countries like India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. They didn't always have to wear burkas, it evolved that way. I hate to compare but it has bothered me and I combine this mindset to the mindset that women in the church have less power than they did in the early church that Joseph Smith set up.

Tacenda I think modesty is something that should be stressed for both males and females and I don't mean burka type either. It is too bad that unless every detail is spelled out to the centimeter there will be some who don't have a clue.

Also if you hate to compare why did you do it? It was a totally inaccurate and inappropriate comparison.

Also if one does not want to be thought of as a sex object . . .

[happy]

Technically all of 1st Timothy Chapter 2 defines the roles of men and women in the Church.

[thesometimesaint]

Happy:

IIRC that is Paul stating his personal opinion not by way of command. Moreover have you ever tried to keep a woman from speaking her mind?

[ERayR]

But what many are saying in the communities mentioned in the Trib article,is that through philosophies of men policies have been changed since the early years of the church.

Tacend it matters not what many are saying they are wrong.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda I think modesty is something that should be stressed for both males and females and I don't mean burka type either. It is too bad that unless every detail is spelled out to the centimeter there will be some who don't have a clue.

Also if you hate to compare why did you do it? It was a totally inaccurate and inappropriate comparison.

Also if one does not want to be thought of as a sex object . . .

I think it is legalistic and it was the way my young neighbor felt, she didn't want to wear a very appropiate swimsuit, I saw it! Her mother didn't see anything wrong with it either, the tankini one. It's just become severe in the church. Ask the YW Leaders or read what they say on Feminist Mormon Housewives, it's there.

[happy]

Happy:

IIRC that is Paul stating his personal opinion not by way of command. Moreover have you ever tried to keep a woman from speaking her mind?

Can you cite this fact?

[TAO]

Can you cite this fact?

Happy, he says something to the effect that this is his opinion which he is saying, not of commandment, but of permission. The verse is actually in Corinthians, where he says something very similar: http://www.lds.org/s.../7.6?lang=eng#5

Now whether or not it is referring to one or two verses after it, or many verses after it, that I do not know. I do know it refers to the verse about staying single though.

Edited August 17, 2012 by TAO

[thesometimesaint]

Happy

Which part about Paul's opinion or trying to keep women silent in church?

[8] "I Will" therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Clearly Paul here is stating his own "will" not necessarily what God commands.

As to the second point have you ever tried to keep a woman silent at anytime let alone in Church meetings?

[CASteinman]

I know of nothing in canon that precludes women from the Priesthood.

Its not a matter of precluding. Its a matter of calling. Men are called to offices in the Priesthood. Women are not.

[CASteinman]

I think it is legalistic and it was the way my young neighbor felt, she didn't want to wear a very appropiate swimsuit, I saw it! Her mother didn't see anything wrong with it either, the tankini one. It's just become severe in the church. Ask the YW Leaders or read what they say on Feminist Mormon Housewives, it's there.

It is not legalistic.

Tankinis are not exactly appropriate. They are not horrible, but they do not have a modest intent.

Feminist Mormon Housewives are an intolerant group.

[CASteinman]

Why does a Priesthood holder always have to be at a gathering of women? That seems rather degrading and something that can be easily done away with. As a twenty two year old I am sure the women are like why does this kid have to be in the building. I have never done it, but for that very reason I avoid the assignments of that sort.

Its that you are 22 that you feel this way, I hope.

As I have grown older I have been increasingly aware of the appropriateness and considerate value of having men to protect women, walking them to the car and generally helping to make them feel more secure and safe.

If you are not able to convey the sense of increasing security and safety for women then you probably are best not volunteering but otherwise -- be of service!

Incidentally, I do not think it is required that men must be at every meeting of women.

[happy]

Happy

Which part about Paul's opinion or trying to keep women silent in church?

[8] "I Will" therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Clearly Paul here is stating his own "will" not necessarily what God commands.

As to the second point have you ever tried to keep a woman silent at anytime let alone in Church meetings?

While I have opinions on what he meant by "silent", why include this then? If his opinion is wrong, why include it?

[KevinG]

YW leaders do have authority to set such standards. When i served as YW's president, we were specifically asked to ensure that modest dress (including swimsuits and summer clothing) was maintained at all church functions by the Stake YW leaders and our bishop.

I'm not talking about standards for the Youth. I'm talking about people who are not in position to set the standard taking it too far. Mothers who feel they can tell other peoples kids what to do. The two piece suit as a standard thing is a myth. The standards say "modest" and there are a lot of 2 piece suits that are more modest than a high and low cut single piece suit.

[KevinG]

Why does a Priesthood holder always have to be at a gathering of women? That seems rather degrading and something that can be easily done away with. As a twenty two year old I am sure the women are like why does this kid have to be in the building. I have never done it, but for that very reason I avoid the assignments of that sort.

Having a male member in the building at all times where there are gatherings is for protection. That is how I have always understood it for Girls Camp (where I doubled as a cooks assistant) and when I'm asked to be there for RS meetings (where I have doubled as a nursery worker).

[KevinG]

It is not legalistic.

Tankinis are not exactly appropriate. They are not horrible, but they do not have a modest intent.

Feminist Mormon Housewives are an intolerant group.

I ran into this problem with my daughters. Their shape allowed them to wear a Tankini that covered their midriff while it was very difficult to find single piece suits that covered their thighs and breasts appropriately.

There was one statement about two piece suits made years ago and so many of the YW leaders have run with it- despite more recent proclamations that modest suits of any type can be used.

http://www.lds.org/n...-point?lang=eng

From the article on lds.org: "For example, several years ago Church guidelines said not to wear two-piece swimsuits. At that time, “two-piece swimsuits” meant bikinis, which are very revealing. Now fashion has changed, and some two-piece swimsuits are actually among the most modest swimsuits you can buy. They are better fitting and have longer tops that cover the torso. The bottoms come in more modest styles too. So the guideline not to wear a two-piece swimsuit is not as helpful as it once was, but the goal to dress modestly remains."

I have taught my children to sustain their leaders and so when required to eschew tankinis we obey the counsel - however I am not impressed with those who take general standards and go beyond the mark because of a hobby horse.

Edited August 17, 2012 by KevinG