155 replies to this topic

[Carborendum]

My biggest point about the various stages was this:  Joseph DID translate by simply reading the plates.

He had stages of using the Urim and Thummim, as well as the Seer Stone.  But there was at least a STAGE of straight translation because of what he had learned of the written language.

Thus the depiction in various media of Joseph sitting there reading off the plates is accurate for at least that stage.  

We can argue about how long each of the stages were.  I have not been able to find much on the dates involved.  But it appears unreasonable to me that a person with Joseph mnemonic capabilities was unable to learn the written language sufficiently after 116 pages to be able to translate quite a bit of it through mortal means alone, let alone with spiritual and intellectual light from Heaven.

Edited by Carborendum, 29 July 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[calmoriah]

Quote

But there was at least a STAGE of straight translation because of what he had learned of the written language.

If you have already done so, please excuse me, took a break from the thread for a bit and can't remember everything I've read, just point me to the post where you've demonstrated this already....

On what evidence do you base your belief that Joseph simply read off the plate doing (I am assuming this is what you mean, if not could you clarify what you mean) a typical mundane translation just as someone today might translate from English to Spanish? That if he had chosen, he could write an English/Reformed Egyptian dictionary sort of thing and then someone else using that could achieve the same work without invoking the Spirit.   It seems to contradict the claim that the plates were not translated by a mundane method, but by the power and gift of the Spirit.  I understand how you see him getting there, making connections between words due to his phenomenal memory over time, but it seems to me that would require a great deal of more time comparing not only words but sentence structures because of the less than one to one correspondence in word placement between English and the language of the plates and while he had enough text to work with, the speed with which the text was translated and written down, doesn't seem to supply enough time for him to experiment with it outside of his 'working hours'.  Plus he would have had to have been almost perfect in his translating ability and few translators of years of experience working with the languages in multiple texts would claim that.

And last, I do not believe Skousen has discussed any apparent change in delivery or correction that would likely appear switching from a spirit driven translation to a mundane 'academic' driven translation.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Quote

But there was at least a STAGE of straight translation because of what he had learned of the written language.

I don't think there is any evidence of this at all.

Ben M.

[Carborendum]

I guess I haven't made my intent clear.  I was not stating there was evidence.  I can't find any.  I admit that.  It was not my attempt to declare doctrine or history.  I was making a hypothesis by deduction.  

While it did take the comments (from unknown sources) to get me to think along those lines, it was this logic that made me believe it to be credible.  It was even more credible since I've experienced something very similar in my own life.

I believe most of the other claims are fairly well established.

Calmoriah summarized the hypothesis quite well.  Objections included there was not enough there to provide him with such translation ability.  And this hypothesis depicts a fairly mundane method as opposed to the gift and power of God.

Here's my response:

It took me two months to learn Spanish in this manner.  I did not have the benefit of the MTC (special circumstances).  I was thrown into the language mid-mission.  I only spent one hour each morning in such study.  Much of the day, I didn't exactly have full immersion in the language (long story).  Joseph (for the most part) spent most of the waking day in such translation.  While this may be considered a mundane method, I know I was blessed in part with the gift of tongues in order to learn so quickly.  I have even more reason to believe he received similar aid from Heaven.

How is the use of the seer stone "by the gift and power of God"?  Several others were mentioned in church history of having the ability to use a seer stone.  Such were not prophets or called by God to do so.  So, this could also be considered fairly mundane.

The power of God was evident in that he was guided in the translation process to make (to borrow from Ben) the most appropriate translation.  It was evident that not 100% of the words would have been learned in the earlier work (as Calmoriah suggested).  I know I used words in Spanish that I never came across in my studies, and I don't remember hearing from anyone.  But I thought of a word, and immediately the Spanish word (non-cognates included) came to my mind.

Let me emphasize again--

"it appears unreasonable to me that a person with Joseph mnemonic capabilities was unable to learn the written language sufficiently after 116 pages to be able to translate quite a bit of it through mortal means alone, let alone with spiritual and intellectual light from Heaven."

Edited by Carborendum, 29 July 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Eldwynn]

I find the idea that it's called a "translation" at all quite troublesome.  It should simply be called a divination. There is no evidence the plates were involved in any part of the writing of the BOM.  

The reason why people find this problematic, is because it stinks badly of fraud.  It's a lot harder to discount a true translation of a book he found, than to discount a revelation.  It leaves open the idea that Joseph Smith was making the story up, and his scribes (who were able to write English just fine, and very well read) just put it in their own words.

It makes a talk such as this one:
http://www.lds.org/g...mormon?lang=eng

Sound very misleading indeed.

Edited by Eldwynn, 01 August 2012 - 07:52 AM.

[Anijen]

Eldwynn, on 01 August 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

I find the idea that it's called a "translation" at all quite troublesome.  It should simply be called a divination. There is no evidence the plates were involved in any part of the writing of the BOM.  

The reason why people find this problematic, is because it stinks badly of fraud.  It's a lot harder to discount a true translation of a book he found, than to discount a revelation.  It leaves open the idea that Joseph Smith was making the story up, and his scribes (who were able to write English just fine, and very well read) just put it in their own words.

Eldwynn I can recognize that since you do not believe in the LDS church that it would seem to you as a fraud to you however, I do believe as a Latter-day Saint  I can easily accept it was a translation by a different process than one would regular think.

I speak for myself as a Latter-day saint, the words on the plates became the words in the Book of Mormon a form of translation had to happen.

[Eldwynn]

Let's say there is a probability that the entire thing was a fraud (give it a variable, say X).  We are just mortals trying to be as reasonable as we can- so we should consider all possibilities.  Whatever the probability you assign to the scenario where Joseph is translating the Book of Mormon by actually using the plates, would you agree that you would assign a higher probability of fraud to the scenario where the plates weren't used at all?

As for your second sentence, why do you believe that?  You already believe that words can magically appear on stones from a text that is sitting a distance away (does it matter how far away they were?).  Is it really a big leap to believe that perhaps there never were engraved plates?  Or the engraving on the plates don't match what is sitting in the published BOM?

[Benjamin McGuire]

In the history of the church we have this account:

Quote

By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife's father, in the month of December, and the February following.

This is usually understand as suggesting that for the first bit, Joseph first copied characters from the plates to paper, and then looked at the paper through the Nephite Interpreters to "translate". Theoretically, it was after he started using the seer stone that he realized he didn't need to copy them first. Combine this with the accounts of the Anthon transcript, and we can assume that independent of whatever Joseph was doing, he clearly understood it and described it as translating in some way.

Ben M.

[wenglund]

Eldwynn, on 01 August 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

I find the idea that it's called a "translation" at all quite troublesome.  It should simply be called a divination.

The word "translation" is perfectly legitimate in this context, and conveys the intended meaning. That you may be "troubled" by legitimate uses of words, is not our problem, but yours. You might wish to seek help for your unwarranted inclination to put words into other people's mouths.

Quote

There is no evidence the plates were involved in any part of the writing of the BOM.

Given your limited perspective (some may be less kind and call it profound ignorance), it is understandable that you would believe this. However, the principles involved (those who would actually know what they are talking about), have suggested otherwise.

But, thanks for sharing you prejudices.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cwald]

wenglund, on 26 July 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

I am considering starting a whisper campaign about the evident conspiracy of the LDS Church to cover up the "Joseph's shirts of many colors translation method." It is bound to make the "head in the hat translation method" conspiracy look minuscule in comparison. The Church will have to call up numerous disaster response teams to clean up the mess, and even this will scarcely mitigate the seismic devastation that portends to ripple on through to the second coming.

Apologists, there is no need to ready yourself for the onslaught because you are completely impotent in the face of this mighty force. You and the Church curriculum department could introduce the subject into every lesson from now to kingdom come and it will do little to inoculate against the certain pandemic loss of faith.

Sadly, I predict that treehugger, DBMormon, Tracenda, cwald, and several others here will the very first casualties. Time to break out the sack cloth and ashes.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Another classless, unnecessary cheapshot by the infamous Wade E.

[wenglund]

cwald, on 01 August 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Another classless, unnecessary cheapshot by the infamous Wade E.

My apologies to the irony deficient and humor impaired.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund, 01 August 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Tacenda]

cwald, on 01 August 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Another classless, unnecessary cheapshot by the infamous Wade E.

What would some of the apologists do without we questioners of the faith? I guess defend the church to exmormons and non LDS that couldn't care less?

Edited by Tacenda, 01 August 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[wenglund]

Tacenda, on 01 August 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

What would some of the apologists do without we questioners of the faith? I guess defend the church to exmormons and non LDS that couldn't care less?

Not to intentionally deflate your sense of self importance, but we apologists have always been equal-opportunity defenders.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cwald]

wenglund, on 01 August 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

My apologies to the irony deficient and humor impaired.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And yet another unnecessary and classless cheapshot by the infamous Wade England.

Can you actually make a post to someone who has a different perspective than yourself, without all the hostility.  And please don't couch your pathetic negativity as an attempt at humor.  It is not becoming.

I have reported your callous cheap shots to the moderators.  I believe it is in clear violation of board rules.  I would ask that you please refrain from making personal disparanging remarks about me and other board members, especially on threads that I have nothing to do with nor participated in.  If you would like to have this conversation on MD without moderators, fine.  But I would like to respect the rules of the forum here, don't think this is the right board for personal vindettas.  Thank you.

Edited by cwald, 01 August 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Tacenda]

wenglund, on 01 August 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Not to intentionally deflate your sense of self importance, but we apologists have always been equal-opportunity defenders.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think you misunderstand me Wade. I have the opposite of self importance. I really need to be able to come out honestly with my questions or just be apart of the board with so many of the faithful. I was not being flippant when saying that you help defend the faith to those that care enough about it, unlike those that don't care about it and have made up their minds. What happened to the Wade I've come to know with the Christlike answers?  Are you tired of beating your head against the wall with the weaknesses that you may see me or others in coming to the faith of the Lord let alone the church? If so I understand and  I'm sure you have done enough good that you should feel good. I'm really serious and wish you could hear me intead of just read my words, which are inadequate.

[Ares]

This one has run its course.