19 replies to this topic

[russianwolfe]

I am involved in a discussion about Paul being in the temple in Acts 21.

They are attempting to says that beause Paul was not a Levite, he could not go into the temple. I have countered this with what the Bible says in Acts 21.

Can anyone tell me, with a reference from the Bible, where in the temple Paul would have gone to perform the rites of purification as mentioned in Acts 21?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Marin

[Connolly]

Perhaps this will help you understand the temple layout and area usage.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Second_Temple

[USU78]

Was Saul/Paul truly an Israelite of Benjamin?  Or was "Benjamin" code for a kingly clan that was non-Davidic?

USU "Yes, I'm talking Herodian" 78

[Bill Hamblin]

Paul was doing standard Israelite temple worship in the outer courts.  He was not a Levite, and would not have entered the court of the priests.  Sacrifices were given to priests who performed the ritual on behalf of the sacrificer.

[russianwolfe]

Bill Hamblin, on 04 October 2010 - 10:16 PM, said:

Paul was doing standard Israelite temple worship in the outer courts.  He was not a Levite, and would not have entered the court of the priests.  Sacrifices were given to priests who performed the ritual on behalf of the sacrificer.

Where would these rites have taken place and where would Paul have waited?

Marvin

[katherine the great]

russianwolfe, on 05 October 2010 - 03:58 AM, said:

Where would these rites have taken place and where would Paul have waited?

Marvin

Here's a quote from Connelley's link.  It explains in detail how and where Paul (or even a woman) would have been in the temple:
"Access to the temple
The gleaming white marble of the edifice was visible from well outside the walls of the city. The scale of the building was designed to impress, and it dominated the landscape, effectively becoming the focal point of Jerusalem. Even the three great towers near Herod's palace seemed small in comparison.

The first thing a pilgrim would do would be to approach the public entrance on the south side of the Temple Mount complex. He would check his animal, then visit a Mikva, where he would ritually cleanse and purify himself. The pilgrim would then retrieve his sacrificial animal, and head to the Huldah gates. After ascending a staircase three stories in height, and passing through the gate, the pilgrim would find himself in the "Court of the Gentiles."
[edit] The Court of the Gentiles

This area was primarily a bazaar, with vendors selling souvenirs, sacrificial animals, food, as well as currency changers, exchanging Roman for Jewish money, as also mentioned in the New Testament account of Jesus and the Money Changers. Guides that provided tours of the premises were also available. Jewish males had the unique opportunity to be shown inside the temple itself.

The Cohanim (Priests), in their white linen robes and tubular hats, were omnipresent, directing pilgrims where and advising them what kind of sacrifices were to be performed.

Behind one as they entered the Court of the Gentiles was the Royal Portico, which contained a marketplace, administrative quarters, and a synagogue as well. On the upper floors, the great Jewish sages held court, Cohanim and Levites performed various chores, and from there tourists were able to observe the events.

To the east of the court was the Portico of Solomon, and to the north, the Soreg, a giant stone structure separating the public area from the area where only Jews could enter. Within the soreg was the temple itself.
[edit] Inside the Soreg
A Greek script inscription from Herod's Temple, late 1st century BCE. It warns gentiles to refrain from entering the Temple enclosure, on pain of death.

According to Josephus, there were ten entrances into the inner courts, four on the south, four on the north, one on the east and one leading east to west from the Court of Women to the court of the Israelites, named the Nicanor Gate.[27] The gates were: On the south side (going from west to east) the Fuel Gate, the Firstling Gate, the Water Gate. On the north side, from west to east, are the Jeconiah Gate, the Offering Gate, the Women's Gate and the Song Gate. On the Eastern side, the Nicanor gate, which is where most Jewish visitors entered via the Nicanor gate.

A few pieces of the Soreg have survived to the present day; see the photograph at right.
[edit] The Court of the Women

Within this area, all Jews, male and female, were permitted. Even a ritually unclean Cohen could enter to perform various housekeeping duties. There was also a place for lepers (considered ritually unclean), as well as a ritual barbershop for Nazirites. In this, the largest of the temple courts, there could be seen constant dancing, singing and music.
[edit] The Court of the Israelites

This area was exclusively for Jewish men to enter. The Jewish men could see the animal sacrifices made by the high priest in the court of the priests.
[edit] The Court of the Priests

The Court of the Priests was reserved for Levite priests who performed sacrifices, including lambs, doves, and pigeons.
[edit] The Temple itself

Between the entrance of the building and the curtain veiling the Holy of Holies were the famous vessels of the temple: the menorah, the incense-burning altar, and various other implements."

[Bill Hamblin]

russianwolfe, on 05 October 2010 - 03:58 AM, said:

Where would these rites have taken place and where would Paul have waited?

Marvin

Paul could have gone into the court of the Israelites, from which the altar was clearly visible.

[marcus]

Not sure if this is relevant to Paul's actions in the temple, but another question that keeps coming up in my circle of non-members is:  "If eternal marriage was restored by Joseph Smith, why is there no practice nor acknowledgement of it today in the Jewish faith"?

A question I just have no answer for that is even close to being accepted as credible amongst my Jewish friends.  Any help?

[TAO]

marcus, on 05 October 2010 - 06:35 PM, said:

Not sure if this is relevant to Paul's actions in the temple, but another question that keeps coming up in my circle of non-members is:  "If eternal marriage was restored by Joseph Smith, why is there no practice nor acknowledgement of it today in the Jewish faith"?

A question I just have no answer for that is even close to being accepted as credible amongst my Jewish friends.  Any help?

If one remember in JST, the two sets of plates Moses brought down the mountain were different, one was the higher law, the other the lower.  God felt that it wasn't time for the Israelites to live the higher law at that time, and eternal marriage is part of that.

[marcus]

TAO, on 05 October 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

If one remember in JST, the two sets of plates Moses brought down the mountain were different, one was the higher law, the other the lower.  God felt that it wasn't time for the Israelites to live the higher law at that time, and eternal marriage is part of that.

But I thought the JST was not considered scripture with in our standard works.  If the eternal marriage ceremony was restored, who/where was it restored from and why don't modern day Jew's recognize it from their history?  If anyone should accept it, why don't they?

[Bill Hamblin]

marcus, on 05 October 2010 - 06:35 PM, said:

Not sure if this is relevant to Paul's actions in the temple, but another question that keeps coming up in my circle of non-members is:  "If eternal marriage was restored by Joseph Smith, why is there no practice nor acknowledgement of it today in the Jewish faith"?

A question I just have no answer for that is even close to being accepted as credible amongst my Jewish friends.  Any help?

I think a bigger question is why don't they accept Christ as the messiah.  At any rate the vast majority of what Jews believe today is from post-Christian Rabbinic tradition, and only indirectly from the OT.  See Nissinen and Uro, Sacred Marriages, on the ancient background for biblical concepts of marriage.

[TAO]

marcus, on 05 October 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:

But I thought the JST was not considered scripture with in our standard works.  If the eternal marriage ceremony was restored, who/where was it restored from and why don't modern day Jew's recognize it from their history?  If anyone should accept it, why don't they?

That's why they don't accept it, actually.  It was never revealed to them.

[marcus]

TAO, on 05 October 2010 - 07:04 PM, said:

That's why they don't accept it, actually.  It was never revealed to them.

I am assuming this is just your personal opinion and differs from Church teachings.  This principal has always been taught that it was "restored".  So where was it restored from?

[TAO]

marcus, on 05 October 2010 - 07:15 PM, said:

I am assuming this is just your personal opinion and differs from Church teachings.  This principal has always been taught that it was "restored".  So where was it restored from?

Sorry should have been more clear... it was not revealed to them in later times... it existed in earlier times, but I sorta consider it different than the Jews that existed at that time, and the Jews that exist today...  in other words, many things that were known in the early days were lost to them.  I apologize =).

Edited by TAO, 05 October 2010 - 07:21 PM.

[marcus]

TAO, on 05 October 2010 - 07:20 PM, said:

Sorry should have been more clear... it was not revealed to them in later times... it existed in earlier times, but I sorta consider it different than the Jews that existed at that time, and the Jews that exist today...  in other words, many things that were known in the early days were lost to them.  I apologize =).

This makes no sense at all and is obviously your personal opinion. The Jewish/Hebrew culture were sticklers for preserving the details of their history and culture.  How would one of the most sacred rituals suddenly become lost and when???  Sounds like you are used to teaching our sunday school classes with no follow up questioning!!!

Anyone here agree w TAO?

[TAO]

marcus, on 05 October 2010 - 07:35 PM, said:

This makes no sense at all and is obviously your personal opinion. The Jewish/Hebrew culture were sticklers for preserving the details of their history and culture.  How would one of the most sacred rituals suddenly become lost and when???  Sounds like you are used to teaching our sunday school classes with no follow up questioning!!!

Anyone here agree w TAO?

http://scriptures.ld...rg/en/tg/m/41   Some words on marriage
http://scriptures.ld...rg/en/tg/n/37   New and Everlasting Covenant
http://scriptures.ld...rg/en/tg/s/68   The Sealing Ceremony

If you'd like to do some more research, you can on your own, for now I'm chillaxing.

[katherine the great]

marcus, on 05 October 2010 - 07:15 PM, said:

I am assuming this is just your personal opinion and differs from Church teachings.  This principal has always been taught that it was "restored".  So where was it restored from?

It could have been restored from Adam and Eve.  We really don't know.  I don't see any evidence of it in the Old Testament as written.

[calmoriah]

marcus, on 05 October 2010 - 07:35 PM, said:

This makes no sense at all and is obviously your personal opinion. The Jewish/Hebrew culture were sticklers for preserving the details of their history and culture.  How would one of the most sacred rituals suddenly become lost and when???  Sounds like you are used to teaching our sunday school classes with no follow up questioning!!!

Anyone here agree w TAO?

Did you miss Dr. Hamblin's comment above:

Quote

At any rate the vast majority of what Jews believe today is from  post-Christian Rabbinic tradition, and only indirectly from the OT.  See  Nissinen and Uro, Sacred Marriages, on the ancient  background for biblical concepts of marriage.     

I think what may be at issue is what time period they are sticklers for preserving details of their history and culture.  There have been quite a few changes in Judaism since Moses' time, definitely since the First Temple period.

If you are interested in possible changes, check out Margaret Barker's work in Temple Theology.

Edited by calmoriah, 05 October 2010 - 10:48 PM.

[marcus]

This Church explanation of eternal temple marriages clearly states this practice was lost after the death of the last apostles.  If Peter did in fact practice this ordinance during his life, and it was as sacred as we want to make it out as, surely we would find some evidence of the practice.  Particularly in the Catholic Church who represent himmas their first pope.  Or at least in the ancient temples.  For years we taught it was a "restored" practice but yet, much like the BOM history claim, we seem to become less certain about it's origin w the passage of time.  We now seem to be preaching the "we don't know" mantra claiming it is now not important.  Do we as a Church know if this is "restored" now or is the best we can do is the "we don't know" now after further investigation of the actual history.


http://www.ldschurch...ormon/marriage/

Edited by marcus, 06 October 2010 - 04:19 PM.

[marcus]

I think everyone here is right.  Probably best not to talk about this history with non-members and just hope it doesn't come up.