jskains Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 What is the general theory of believers on the issue of horses in the BoM? If someone was honestly concerned on this issue, what is the best response from the believing community?Thanks,JMS Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 What is the general theory of believers on the issue of horses in the BoM? If someone was honestly concerned on this issue, what is the best response from the believing community?Thanks,JMSWell since we know the archeologists tell us that the Elephants went extinct on the American continent around 400AD and since horse bones are found in conjuction with elephant remains. Is it such a logical leap? Link to comment
Scottie Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Well since we know the archeologists tell us that the Elephants went extinct on the American continent around 400AD and since horse bones are found in conjuction with elephant remains. Is it such a logical leap?What??? CFR for both.And, by the way, the absence of evidence goes MUCH deeper than simply not finding horse bones.There is Z E R O artwork depicting horses, yet we find artwork for nearly every other kind of animal.They had no way to deal with the conquistadors. Horses GREATLY skewed the battles.There are no roads, which would have been used if horses were pulling chariots.The overall view of the ancient civilizations would be dramatically different if horses had existed during BoM times. Link to comment
jskains Posted July 13, 2010 Author Share Posted July 13, 2010 What??? CFR for both.And, by the way, the absence of evidence goes MUCH deeper than simply not finding horse bones.There is Z E R O artwork depicting horses, yet we find artwork for nearly every other kind of animal.They had no way to deal with the conquistadors. Horses GREATLY skewed the battles.There are no roads, which would have been used if horses were pulling chariots.The overall view of the ancient civilizations would be dramatically different if horses had existed during BoM times.Ok, I feel dumb. What is CFR?JMS Link to comment
Scottie Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Ok, I feel dumb. What is CFR?JMSCall For ReferencesIn other words, please provide a link to the article that shows any archeologists believe that elephants went extinct around 400AD and that they have found elephant bones dating after 10,000bc. Link to comment
Magyar Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 No roads?The MesoAmericans had some of the best roads on the planet when the Spanish arrived -- in fact, that helped to bring about their conquest. Big, wide roads right into the heart of their empire. Link to comment
Doug the Hutt Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Zak,Yes, please, CFR. I've heard of horse bone hoaxes (seems one is mentioned by DCP or Tvednes or someone like that in one of those Youtube FAIRLDS links). I've also heard of horse bones in Florida swamps which couldn't be identified to any certainty by the discoverer since he recognized that the strata had shifted or something thus making old fossils poke up into a modern layer.Magyar,I've only heard about the roads in Central & South America from a co-worker. He said they were like 100 feet deep, then proceeded to tell me that there must have been some friggin' large animals plodding along on them, that those animals must have been the elephants, curelom & cumom of Book of Ether lore. Perhaps someone can give us a tour with Google Earth ( maps.google.com ) showing us the marvelous roads? And will these roads contain those ancient horse bones? The fact is that a large road doesn't mean there were horses and chariots -- it means there was justification enough to build a road based on some need -- trade, convenience, safety, etc. I think it would be awesome to find horse fossils in conjunction with chariots *next to* the roads and found at a reasonable layer in the fossil record to be a bullseye. Otherwise it ends up looking like Texas target shooting. The problem I've always had with horse, elephant, sword fossils is that you can never find them all together within a community living during a certain New World Precolumbian Christian epoch. It's taking a pygamy mammoth from Engel Island north of Alaska and making the association that that proves Jaredites existed, proving that the Book of Mormon is true, thus proving TCOJCOLDS is true(!). It's taking disputed hoaxes (that is, the majority of scientists and archaeologists call them hoaxes and the fringe minority have a suspicious religious agenda which I'm certain they're sincere about) and insisting a conspiracy to suppress the truth against everyone being forced to conclude that Mormonism is true. That's been my experience with lay members. Link to comment
Doug the Hutt Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 jskains,Here's FAIR's response for horsies: Link to comment
Bob Crockett Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Clayton E. Ray, "Pre-columbian Horses from Yucatan," Journal of Mammology 58:2 (May 1957). Ray went on to be some sort of big shot at the Smithsonian.Gavin Menzies argues in one of his year-numbered books that the Nez Perce horse stock pre-dates Columbus.One of Barry Fells' acolytes, Gloria Farley, published a book "In Plain Sight," containing pictographs of horses, but really, how do you date pictographs? I think the above is weak, but there you have it. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 What??? CFR for both.Sure thing Scottie...Primary source for the Elephants is bolded...The cited references above are (1) Palmer, D., ed. (1999). The Marshall Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs and Prehistoric Animals. London: Marshall Editions. pp.239 Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Critics will accept nothing less than an elephant hide with the branding of "he went to Jareds" on it. and even then they would find a way to dispute it.That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 That is the funniest thing I have heard in a while.Whats funnier is critics who will acept things recorded in the Bible as truth with far less evidence than this.What has been the cry for almost 150 years? "No perenial Rivers in all of Sadia Arabia" anywhere... One has been found... Whats the cry now? Oh but its only a little stream and there are no pictographs or graffiti in reformed Egyptian by Nephi stating..." Sam was here. 600 AD" Link to comment
Obiwan Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 What??? CFR for both.And, by the way, the absence of evidence goes MUCH deeper than simply not finding horse bones.There is Z E R O artwork depicting horses, yet we find artwork for nearly every other kind of animal.They had no way to deal with the conquistadors. Horses GREATLY skewed the battles.There are no roads, which would have been used if horses were pulling chariots.The overall view of the ancient civilizations would be dramatically different if horses had existed during BoM times.Really?http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html Link to comment
cinepro Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 What is the general theory of believers on the issue of horses in the BoM? If someone was honestly concerned on this issue, what is the best response from the believing community?Thanks,JMSAs far as I can tell, people will either argue that there were horses here at that time, or that the word "horse" in the Book of Mormon is actually referring to some other animal. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 As far as I can tell, people will either argue that there were horses here at that time, or that the word "horse" in the Book of Mormon is actually referring to some other animal.Both acceptable and plausible answers IMHO. Link to comment
cinepro Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 Both acceptable and plausible answers IMHO.I agree that they are both equally acceptable and plausible. And obviously unfalsifiable. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Some more good reading... and source material. On horses and Elephant remains being found together.The Clark Expeditions to Big Bone Lick commissioned by Thomas Jefferson:http://www.ansp.org/...hp#otherfossilshttp://www.ansp.org/...uus.php#return1 Need any more References Scottie? Link to comment
jskains Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 However I reject the Mesoamerica argument. I accept the original theory of Northern America. Now there is evidence of horses from Asia (Jeredites?) and there is evidence that horses did evolve here, but there is a hole in the time period where the BoM is established. Has anyone fully looked at Northern America and horses?JMS Link to comment
handys003 Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Well since we know the archeologists tell us that the Elephants went extinct on the American continent around 400AD and since horse bones are found in conjuction with elephant remains. Is it such a logical leap?Anyone for Macaws and Elephants? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Anyone for Macaws and Elephants?Please not another one of these threads... we all know art is interpreative.Lets stick with the hard sciences. less wigle room. Link to comment
handys003 Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Cave painings of man riding horse in Annubis cave in Colorado,http://gloriafarley.com/chap4.htmOther pics of horses:http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html Link to comment
handys003 Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Please not another one of these threads... we all know art is interpreative.Lets stick with the hard sciences. less wigle room.You know me just being an akamai okole Link to comment
Zakuska Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 You know me just being an akamai okoleLOL. I like being an akamai okole too. Or would that be a "a holo honua okole"?Horses arrived five years afterward in 1803. 19th Century historian David Malo in his Moolelo Hawaii, lists among the Link to comment
StuddleyG Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Horses and elephants aren't the only animals accused of be in the Book of Mormon. There are pigs, sheep, goats, wild goats, and the ox. But for some reason, horses and elephants get the most attention. FARMS and FAIR come up with a lot of explanations. Here is an article in which a FAIR member tries to hit every anaochronism in the book one by one.http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2009_Science_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.htmlThis article leaves room for more questions, but that's the nature of apologetics. Richard Bushman refers to the work to defend the Book of Mormon as an uphill battle. Link to comment
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