Explain the Book of Abraham

[Gordon]

Is this a man or a woman?

Tell, me, how is this pertinent to the truth and validity of the BoA?

[Paul Osborne]

He seems to feel that the canonized BofA contained in our Pearl of Great Price was translated from the actual writings of Abraham and if that is true he should be able to produce the name from an expert witness who READS Egyptian. We will have to test the credibility of those involved in this argument by the handling of the facts in the face of reason.

Are you serious!? How do you come up with these statements? When have I tried to state that I could produce, decipher, or read Egyptian anything!? Here, again, are statements made by you, that are incorrect, and meant to belittle...

The Lord, prophet, and scripture state the BoA is translated from the writings of Abraham...how can I be any more clear on this? I have no intentions of translating anything, or suggesting that I can do so.

I

[Gordon]

I believe it it Anubis, one of the mighty gods of ancient Egypt.

Anubis...a G-d that doesn't exist.

I don't believe for one second that Abraham drew this figure and labled him a slave.

Why?

Had he done that the king of Egypt would have likely put Abraham to death.

Likely? Says who, and why?

[Gordon]

I'm unable to read anything in these characters that pertain to the BofA. It appears that the writing that flanks the Facsimile are not the BofA at all. It's just not there, Gordon. Do you still want me to believe it is? Can you read the text? If not, do you know anyone other than me that can read the text?

If you can read the text, then why state 'it appears'? Why not claim what you read?

Tell me, then, what exactly do you read?

[Paul Osborne]

Is this a man or a woman?

Tell, me, how is this pertinent to the truth and validity of the BoA?

Gordon,

The BofA is true. I think this whole discussion is going over your head and you are so upset you can

[Gordon]

Gordon,

Joseph Smith told his colleagues that the figure to the left was Jacob, the mighty patriarch, Israel. This was the testimony given to the press. Do you want me to believe this is actually Jacob? What do we do with the lovely hips? I never would have imagined that Jacob would have looked and dressed like a woman. Do you want me to drop all reason and intertain insanity just because you say that a prophet cannot be wrong? I won't do that. I need to sleep at night.

Paul O

I see either a figure with one hip, or I see the curve buttocks. Also, I'm not sure how you can clearly state that that figure is dressed like a woman? Egyptian men and women are depicted in many similar ways.

[Gordon]

When a prophet is wrong, a prophet is wrong.

Correct, but not when acting as the mouthpeice of the Lord.

...from funerary papyri...

Incorrect. The current forms of the facsimiles found today, deal with funeral text.

But the early saints were wrong about the papyrus.

No, they weren't.

We can examine the FRAGMENTS at hand and the Facsimilies.

Not of the originals that JS translated from. Tell me, where did the ones examined come from? Is there any testimony of their origin, or where they were for a hundred odd years or so?

I suggest you purchase John Gee's book, "A Guide To The Joseph Smith Papyri"; I think you can go to the FAIR bookstore webpage and order a copy. I'm flattered that you would through me in the same boat with John Gee, but I don't think he would appreciate that.

This, I will admit, is over my head - it means nothing to me. It is also completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

No, I'm not telling you that.

So are you going off of assumptions, or odds?

The mummies were examined by experts before they were ever taken to Kirtland.

Which experts?

...funerary spells commonly called the Book of the Dead.

This statement is made soley upon the comparisons made to what is found today. This, in no way, means that the facsimiles translated by JS could not have been made by Abraham. How many times has truth given by the Lord been changed by Man to mean something else?

You are the first person of hundreds of Latter-day Saints I've spoken to that takes the position of denying reality.

So, I'm the only member that you have met that believes the BoA is what it claims to be - tranlated from the writings of Abraham, and that all the other members feel that JS translated that scripture falsely, correct? This, I find impossible to believe.

You are walking a lonely road and need to get off it fast.

If you say so, Paul...

Expert testimony...

Yours?

You can't get knowledge by denying truth.

Look hard at what you just said...

[Gordon]

What about Isaac? Are you saying he didn't have the Holy Ghost when he blessed Jacob?

Paul O

Again, Paul, the false information that Isaac received didn't come from the HG, it came from Man. The HG was present during the blessing - the rightful blessing of Jacob.

[Gordon]

There is no king's name above the hand. Will you admit that? Don't just skip over it. I won't let you do that. I want you to tell me why Joseph Smith said there was a king's name above the head of the figure he said was a king.

OK, you have claimed expertise on the BoA, while I have not even thought such, so quit asking me, and tell me what you read - I cannot admit to something that I cannot confirm nor deny.

I insist that the name is not that of a king and neither is the mummy a king. Deal with the facts.

What, then, do you insist it to be?

[Gordon]

Stop being so emotional, please.

Paul, seriously, I have conducted this conversation quite reasonably, and without emotion - save for your comments on my understanding, education, and grasp of the subject without anything to substantiate your remarks.

You haven

[Gordon]

AFAIK, Joseph Smith never said the Lord revealed to him that the owner of the Papyri was Abraham. Joseph Smith and the early saints were mistaken in this.

Yet that's exactly what the BoA purports to be, as canonized scripture - translated directly from the writings of Abraham...

[Gordon]

How about you allow the experts to do the translating for you?

Experts like you?? No thanks, I will stick to letting the Lord, prophets, and the HG do the translating when it comes to the Gospel.

Please recognize the facts that I've shown.

You have yet to show me any facts. You have given me hollow statements of truth you claim to be so, and given me your opinions and interpretations.

[Gordon]

I think this whole discussion is going over your head and you are so upset you can

[Paul Osborne]

Prophets make mistakes but can still operate under the inspiration of God.

Yes, but not while, and still find favor.

Isaac believed a lie when he laid his hands upon Jacob while blessing him by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Indeed, yet it was not the Lord who was lying to Isaac...which would have had to have been the case for JS, if the Lord had him believe it was something it was not while having Joseph translate that scripture.

Remember also, that Esau sold his birthright, so it was rightfully Jacobs in the eyes of the Lord.

THE UNSUGARCOATED FACTS:

1. Isaac had the Holy Ghost

2. Isaac blessed Jabob while he had the Holy Ghost

3. Isaac believed he was laying his hands on Esau

4. Isaac believed a lie while speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost

5. Isaac smelled what he thought was his first son

6. Isaac pronounced the name of "Esau" on Jacob's head

7. Isaac trembled when he learned the truth later on, after the blessing

A. Therefore, we know that the Lord will allow a prophet to believe a lie even though the Holy Ghost pronounces inspired blessings through that prophet.

B. We know that a prophet can think something that is not true and still operate under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

C. We know that a prophet is not always able to discern the truth and can be lied to even though the lie is for the purpose of doing a righteous deed.

D. We know that a prophet can lay his hands upon a man's head and think he is another person.

1. Joseph Smith had the Holy Ghost

2. Joseph Smith blessed the church while he had the Holy Ghost

3. Joseph Smith believed he was laying his hands on genuine Abrahamic papyri

4. Joseph Smith believed a false rumor about the papyri while speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost

5. Joseph Smith sensed what he thought was 4,000 year old papyri

6. Joseph Smith pronounced the name of "Abraham" on Hor

[Paul Osborne]

Here's the deal: The BoA, as we have canonized in the PoGP, clearly states that the translation was made directly from the writings of Abraham on the papyrus that JS received, which means either the Lord is lying to the whole world, or you are completely false in your thinking on this matter.

Gordon,

I do not believe these are the writings of Abraham:

Do you believe they are the writings of Abraham?

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

Further, I do not believe that these writings have anything to do with the BofA, nor did Abraham write them, and he never held this papyrus in his hands.

Do you believe these are the writings of Abraham?

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

Declare your faith, Gordon - even though I think your current views are seriously misplaced, I think you can enter into the realm of honesty and face reality.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Joseph Smith was mistaken...He thought they were original autographs of Abraham...He was wrong. That was his idea, not God

[T-Shirt]

Paul,

Stop the browbeating, it is not helping anything.

T-Shirt

[Paul Osborne]

I can't see any other excuse for not helping me to see your point of view, but for the fact that you simply do not know what to say, and are afraid to admit such.

Oh come on; me afraid? You don't think I don

[Paul Osborne]

Let

[Paul Osborne]

Gordon,

Joseph Smith told his colleagues that the figure to the left was Jacob, the mighty patriarch, Israel. This was the testimony given to the press. Do you want me to believe this is actually Jacob? What do we do with the lovely hips? I never would have imagined that Jacob would have looked and dressed like a woman. Do you want me to drop all reason and intertain insanity just because you say that a prophet cannot be wrong? I won't do that. I need to sleep at night.

Paul O

I see either a figure with one hip, or I see the curve buttocks. Also, I'm not sure how you can clearly state that that figure is dressed like a woman? Egyptian men and women are depicted in many similar ways.

Gordon,

Obviously you don't think I know what I'm talking about so would you accept expert testimony from an Internationally known Egyptoligist?

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Is this a man or a woman?

Tell, me, how is this pertinent to the truth and validity of the BoA?

Again, let's get on with the FACTS, please. I'm not discussing whether the BofA is true or not - I've already told you that it is true. We are discussing whether Joseph Smith errored in what he said about images in the Pearl of Great Price.

Is this a man or a woman? I expect an answer, Gordon. You are the one that claims everything he said by the Holy Ghost was true and accurate. So, stand up to the plate and answer the question. If you can't do that, then I will assume you resign from the argument.

Paul O

[ScriptureLover]

HiJolly:

Isis, mother of the god. As given by him who I suspect is ScriptureLover. Sorry if I stole your thunder, dude.

Can you tell me the name over "Prince Pharoah"?

HiJolly

SL:

Aw man, yer spoilin all the fun! The other hieroglyph reads "Ma'at, Lady of the West."

[Paul Osborne]

There is no king's name above the hand. Will you admit that? Don't just skip over it. I won't let you do that. I want you to tell me why Joseph Smith said there was a king's name above the head of the figure he said was a king.

OK, you have claimed expertise on the BoA, while I have not even thought such, so quit asking me, and tell me what you read - I cannot admit to something that I cannot confirm nor deny.

I insist that the name is not that of a king and neither is the mummy a king. Deal with the facts.

What, then, do you insist it to be?

[ScriptureLover]

The King's name is there, ya just have to look harder Paul (Kidding of course)........ yes on the literal level Joseph Smith appears.......I say APPEARS to have made a mistake. But it's not. I present some ideas on this very idea on Saturday morning at Sunstone. And I wish publically to thank Paul here for helping me with some ideas on my presentation. Yer all right dude, even if you are cantankerous sometimes

SL

[Paul Osborne]

HiJolly:

Isis, mother of the god. As given by him who I suspect is ScriptureLover. Sorry if I stole your thunder, dude.

Can you tell me the name over "Prince Pharoah"?

HiJolly

SL:

Aw man, yer spoilin all the fun! The other hieroglyph reads "Ma'at, Lady of the West."

No it doesn't! It's the name of the prince! It's a man!!

Paul O