Explain the Book of Abraham

[Paul Osborne]

Paul,

Stop the browbeating, it is not helping anything.

T-Shirt

Shirt,

I value your opinion.

Tell me what I've said that beats Gordon's brow - and then tell me why you think I might have said what I said.

Also, please tell me how this is not helping things. What things?

Paul O

[Hemidakota]

Scottie said it all.

[Paul Osborne]

The King's name is there, ya just have to look harder Paul (Kidding of course)........ yes on the literal level Joseph Smith appears.......I say APPEARS to have made a mistake. But it's not. I present some ideas on this very idea on Saturday morning at Sunstone. And I wish publically to thank Paul here for helping me with some ideas on my presentation. Yer all right dude, even if you are cantankerous sometimes

SL

I agree Kerry.

Gee, I really didn't want to spend my day arguing. I've got radio interviews to prepare for and now I'm a bit wound up. My argument on this thread was to stress a point. I think Joseph Smith is the finest man who ever walked this earth, other than Jesus of course.

On another point, I wish Jesus had known about germs when he said it was ok to eat with unwashed hands. He would have saved millions of lives - after a different fashion.

Paul O

[Hemidakota]

Paul, has anyone finished answering the 2nd Facsimile in the Book of Abraham?

[cdowis]

Paul, I have not been following this thread, but one question:

>Joseph Smith told his colleagues that the figure to the left was Jacob, the mighty patriarch, Israel. This was the testimony given to the press.

Can you give us the exact citation, or a link to this statement. Before we do a fan dance, let's see what's behind the fan.

[ScriptureLover]

Paul O:

No it doesn't! It's the name of the prince! It's a man!!

Paul O

SL:

Huh-uh! Yer wrong dude!

A hint if you will............Ma'at is NOT a woman. That ought to get some eyebrows raised eh Paul? GRIN! Oh the pure fun of studying the Egyptians and Egyptologists! Ma'at, I repeat, is *NOT* a woman. Now, that being said, she is NOT a man either.... And yes, I am truly serious. I will demonstrate this Egyptologically at Sunstone.

[cdowis]

>Ma'at

Sorry, couldn't wait. Let's see if this make sense in the context of the great patriarch, Jacob or Israel.

But this hierarchy of gods with the sun-god at the top doesn't quite match the picture exactly. For at the top of the universal order stood a goddess, a teenage girl goddess who was often represented as a pair of twins, Ma'at. This unprepossessing goddess literally ruled everything. She was not the sun and she was not power and strength; she represented, rather, an abstraction. She was "Truth" or "Order." For the Egyptian believed that the universe was above everything else an ordered and rational place. It functioned with predictability and regularity; the cycles of the universe always remained constant; in the moral sphere, purity was rewarded and sin was punished. Both morally and physically, the universe was in perfect balance.

The Egyptian word for this balance was the Egyptian word for "truth," ma'at; this is perhaps the single most important aspect of Egyptian culture that you can learn. For once you really understand this concept, the whole of Egyptian culture begins to make sense. The order of the universe (ma'at ) functioned with unswerving accuracy; it was maintained by the goddess Ma'at. This meant that the concept of "truth" meant for the Egyptian the the rational and orderly working of the universe rather than its diverse phenomena. The Egyptian, then, believed that he or she understood how the universe operated; all phenomena could be explained by an appeal to this understanding of the rationality of the universe.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough how important this concept of ma'at is to subsequent history. This idea that the universe is rational and that the "truth" of the universe is the underlying rationality and order of the universe rather than its diverse phenomena, passed from the Egyptians to the Greeks. The Greeks called the underlying order of the universe, logos, or "meaning," "order," "pattern."

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/EGYPT/MAAT.HTM

[USU78]

More on Ma'at and her special relationship with Pharaoh:

It is said in the mythology that Ma'at is the daughter of Ra, and that upon creation of the world, Ra gives Ma'at to the world and to men. As a gift from the gods, the king is in constant charge of "maintaining" Ma'at, lest the gift be recalled by the gods. In fact, it is this constant struggle to maintain the goddess on earth that is recalled by the king by noting Ma'at's antithesis, disorder (isft) is constantly being sought out and routed from the land, and that disorder's attendant qualities - lying (grg), covetousness ('wn-ib) - are to be put down within the society. It is at this point that the constant battle of order vs. disorder now takes on a more moral quality that will prevail until the end of Egyptian history.

[Emphasis added]

[Paul Osborne]

Paul, I have not been following this thread, but one question:

>Joseph Smith told his colleagues that the figure to the left was Jacob, the mighty patriarch, Israel. This was the testimony given to the press.

Can you give us the exact citation, or a link to this statement.  Before we do a fan dance, let's see what's behind the fan. 

The "Court of Osiris" On Screen

Enjoy.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Paul, has anyone finished answering the 2nd Facsimile in the Book of Abraham?

I don't think that will happen until Joseph Smith rises from the dead and takes his place at the temple in Jackson County.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Paul O:

No it doesn't! It's the name of the prince! It's a man!!

Paul O

SL:

Huh-uh! Yer wrong dude!

A hint if you will............Ma'at is NOT a woman. That ought to get some eyebrows raised eh Paul? GRIN! Oh the pure fun of studying the Egyptians and Egyptologists! Ma'at, I repeat, is *NOT* a woman. Now, that being said, she is NOT a man either.... And yes, I am truly serious. I will demonstrate this Egyptologically at Sunstone.

Ok, it certainly will be interesting to see how you tie a sexless being into a prince of Egypt. I suppose you will attempt to do the same with the sweet looking king who is about to loose her strap. Most people look at the picture (vignette... cough) and expect to see men according to the inspired Explanation. Just be sure that what you say won

[Paul Osborne]

How about you allow the experts to do the translating for you?

Experts like you?? No thanks, I will stick to letting the Lord, prophets, and the HG do the translating when it comes to the Gospel.

Please recognize the facts that I've shown.

You have yet to show me any facts. You have given me hollow statements of truth you claim to be so, and given me your opinions and interpretations.

Gordon,

You reject me.

You reject the experts.

How can you deal with the facts?

Here are some facts. I hope you deal with them. I just don't think I can reason with you. If you refuse to accept the fact that the Egyptian language has been deciphered, then we just can't talk further. You are on your own. I can't imagine having a discussion with you about the Kirtland Papers and that is a major part of the BofA saga, which you claim to know.

Column 1: iw wnn n.k

Column 2: imii nTr.i pn

Column 3: Ddw

"You will be in the presence of this god who is Osiris of Djedu (Busiris)."

Paul O

[Gordon]

1. Isaac had the Holy Ghost

AFTER he received false information.

Isaac blessed Jabob while he had the Holy Ghost

Yes, Jacob was to be rightfully blessed.

Isaac believed he was laying his hands on Esau

Due to his wife and son, not the HG.

Isaac believed a lie while speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost

Yes, but the HG was present for the blessing to Jacob - which was right in the sight of the Lord, not to confirm that Isaac was blessing Esau.

Isaac smelled what he thought was his first son

From the fooling of Man.

Isaac pronounced the name of "Esau" on Jacob's head

I will take the stance that the HG didn't work with Isaac until after that statement, so the HG was only there to make sure Jacob received the correct blessings.

Isaac trembled when he learned the truth later on, after the blessing

Yeah, I'd be ticked too! Yet that angry was for being tricked by his wife and son, not by the HG.

Therefore, we know that the Lord will allow a prophet to believe a lie even though the Holy Ghost pronounces inspired blessings through that prophet.

Yet the lie didn't come from the HG.

We know that a prophet can think something that is not true and still operate under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Sure, but for this arguement to work in comparison to JS and the BoA, Isaac would have to have believed the blessing was real, when in fact it was not - which is not the case.

We know that a prophet is not always able to discern the truth and can be lied to even though the lie is for the purpose of doing a righteous deed.

Yes, but not when the truth is coming from the HG, himself.

We know that a prophet can lay his hands upon a man's head and think he is another person.

Correct, but the HG isn't going to bless someone that isn't meant to be blessed. As the scriptures state: If after a blessing is given, if the person being blessed lives, he lives according to the Lord, but if he dies, he dies unto the Lord - regardless of what the person who did the blessing did, or didn't, think.

Joseph Smith had the Holy Ghost

Sure did!

Joseph Smith blessed the church while he had the Holy Ghost

? Couldn't comment.

Joseph Smith believed he was laying his hands on genuine Abrahamic papyri

Yes, indeed he did, which knowledge was given to him - obviously confirmed by this blessing to the Church you spoke - and act of a prophet speaking for the Lord.

Joseph Smith believed a false rumor about the papyri while speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost

Heh? What rumor? Give details, please. Besides, it wasn't false.

Joseph Smith sensed what he thought was 4,000 year old papyri

Yes, and...?

Joseph Smith pronounced the name of "Abraham" on Hor

[Gordon]

I do not believe these are the writings of Abraham:

Who said they were writings of Abraham?

And why do you not believe this?

Further, I do not believe that these writings have anything to do with the BofA, nor did Abraham write them, and he never held this papyrus in his hands.

Do you believe they are the writings of Abraham?

Why do you not believe this? Which papyrus are you refering to, in which Abraham held?

Declare your faith, Gordon - even though I think your current views are seriously misplaced, I think you can enter into the realm of honesty and face reality.

I find it seriously strange, that a member of the Church - who claims a testimony - would state that I - who believes exactly what a prophet has stated when working with the HG, and canonized to the whole world while being supported by every modern prophet that has come since - am misguided, when you - who professes a tesimony in the Restored Gospel, modern revelation, JS, modern prophets, the BoM, etc. - are taking your stance based upon rumors, accusations, assumptions, opinions, false 'evidence' and science, and no actual proof...this is very weird.

[Gordon]

Gordon, you are processing these things from a two-dimensional point of view. That isn

[Gordon]

Go ahead and peruse my debates on my website and see just how afraid and speechless I can be.

I'm trying to pursue them here.

I can assure you that this conversation you and I are having is for popcorn and peanuts.

I guess I should feel soooooooooo privilaged that you are taking such precious and important time to converse with such a simpleton as me.

To be truthful, I feel like I'm talking to an evangelical that just keeps thumping me over the head with a Bible - but in your case: Joseph Smith was perfect.

Never said JS was perfect - I think all thoses Bible thumpings you have taken have hurt your hearing (actually it would be your vision, since you are reading...). What I have stated, is that the BoA - as found in the PoGP - clearly states that it was translated directly from the writings of Abraham, so if what you state is correct, than the Lord is lying to the whole world. I'm sorry that you refuse to see this, because that is exactly what your stance would mean - why do you not respond to this?

By the way, I feel as if I'm talking to a stubborn person, who is unwilling to let all the knowledge they have gained go, because the truth staring them in the face shows it to be wrong.

I wish you would deal with the facts.

Again, what you have given me are not facts - quit proclaiming them to be so.

There probably isn't very many people interested in this thread anymore because you won't open your box and come out.

Here we go with the put-downs again...I feel sad for you. And I'm sure there are those not interested in this thread anymore, because they realize that you will refuse to accept what the Lord has given - which is far more important than your observations.

I've been pretty nice to you and all you do is complain.

That's sad that you cannot see your own comments for what they are...

But I'm still willing to help you out, if you won't bite my hand off everytime I say something that differs with your view of gospel concepts.

Oh, Paul, come on now, I simply call you on your assertations, to which you give me the run-around. My view of the Gospel is consistent with what the prophets view...funny, don't you think?

[Gordon]

Row 1: i.nTr.i sDrw m sp

Row 2: tpii nTr.i aA nbt pt tA

Row 3: dwAt mw.f aA

Row 4: ti anx bA Wsir SAs(nq)

"O God of those who sleep in death from the beginning of time. The great God, Lord of heaven, earth, the netherworld, and the great seas. Lo, the soul of Osiris Shoshenq will live."

OK.

First, did JS translate this actual facsimile, in the current form in which you show? Second, it speaks of the G-d Osiris, which we know does not exist, so it proves itself to be false.

[Gordon]

Obviously you don't think I know what I'm talking about so would you accept expert testimony from an Internationally known Egyptoligist?

Who is this expert, and would he be giving 'expert' advice based on how he interprets what he sees?

[Gordon]

Is this a man or a woman? I expect an answer, Gordon. You are the one that claims everything he said by the Holy Ghost was true and accurate. So, stand up to the plate and answer the question. If you can't do that, then I will assume you resign from the argument.

OK, from what I understand, JS did not translate the facsimile that you are using in its current form, and is not found in the BoA, hence not pertinent. If I'm wrong, then I'll have to look in to it. Second, if your basing your arguement upon what the figure looks like, then I must say it is rather weak.

[Dale]

The explanations Joseph Smith gave of the facimilies are wrong. Every person who offers a translation admits he didn't know what their literal meaning was. So in order for Egyptological support we have to do comparisions based on a deeper study that points out similarities. But there's no direct evidence he knew the literal meanings.

[Gordon]

Figure 2 (top line to the right of figure 2) mentions the great Isis, mother of the god

Figure 2 is Isis

So, you have some explaining to do, Gordon. Where is the king

[Gordon]

How can you deal with the facts?

WHAT FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN ME ANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you refuse to accept the fact that the Egyptian language has been deciphered, then we just can't talk further.

Of course the Egptian language can be deciphered, I never said it couldn't! The whole problem lies with the fact that you choose to believe in fascimiles that JS did not translate from, that have been found to say things other than what JS stated them to be, and what they actually say we both know is FALSE!!!!!! THERE ARE NO G-DS OSIRIS & ANUBUS!!! THEY DON'T EXIST!!!!!!!!! So, whatever is found to be on the facsimiles that have Egyptian funeral text on them are incorrect. How you use them to prove the translation JS made of Abraham - someone almost the whole world accepts was a prophet that did indeed exist, and whom you and I know did so - to be wrong amazes me. You, nor I, or any person that is known to exist has posession of the actual facsimiles that JS translated from - there are your 'FACTS'!

I can't imagine having a discussion with you about the Kirtland Papers and that is a major part of the BofA saga, which you claim to know.

That's right, the 'mysterious' Kirtland Papers, along with all the other 'facts' that just somehow appeared in a museum one day, to which nobody knows where they came from, or how they got there......??? Spooky....

[cdowis]

Paul: Joseph Smith told his colleagues that the figure to the left was Jacob, the mighty patriarch, Israel. This was the testimony given to the press.

cdowis: please give us the source of this statement.

Paul: (gives a link to the following) Here is the report given by Reverend Caswall; City of the Mormons; 1843):

"Look down this way. This figure near the side is Jacob, and those are his two wives."

cdowis: Rev Caswell is a very unreliable source of information.

[Paul Osborne]

QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jul 27 2005, 10:20 AM)

1. Isaac had the Holy Ghost

Gordon:

AFTER he received false information.

I

[Hemidakota]

Paul, where are the answers to the mystery surrounding the last characters that are not decifier on the 2nd Facsimile?