rjohnson7 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Believe what you want to believe. I am way past caring. Yet you can't remember, nice Link to comment
rjohnson7 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Calm said: Feel free to report me, but be aware they will look at the thread to see what is going on if they are not already aware and who is the one who keeps posting with requests I justify my comments? I grew up, I don't report Edited September 13, 2023 by rjohnson7 Link to comment
rjohnson7 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 14 minutes ago, Calm said: I was laughing at the show. I was thanking Nevo for bringing it to my attention. Laugh yourself back to the topic, that would be a change. Link to comment
Calm Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, rjohnson7 said: Have you yet found the post where you unjustly accused me of calling anyone rude,,, I think no and you were once a mod, oh my! Do you want me to respond to you or to stay on topic? Link to comment
rjohnson7 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, Calm said: Do you want me to respond to you or to stay on topic? I'm not into deflection, if you care not to answer then why would anyone want to answer any question you asked? We can play that game too! You just have announced to everyone, you will pick and choose some and ignore ones where you stepped over the line and broke a rule, accusing someone of something they did not do, really nice.... -1 Link to comment
Popular Post Nevo Posted September 13, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, rjohnson7 said: Great, now let's get back on topic! You in or out? That's the spirit. I'm in. You started out saying "For historians to author books and declare JS used a seer stone in a hat is absolutely dangerous for it implies magic and the occult." And "I have faith he was not a money digger or used a seer stone in a hat ..... magic and the occult is not acceptable to God. I have done the work and found nothing that can evidence any of this..." At one point you were questioning whether there were any eyewitnesses of Joseph using a seer stone in a hat, or whether their testimony could be trusted, but you've since conceded that there are "reliable witnesses of the seer stone in a hat." That's progress! Now, the question is, what was in the hat? Was it the Nephite/Jaredite interpreters? Joseph's white seer stone? Or his brown seer stone (or "rock" as you call it)? And was this the real method of translation, or just a show that he put on for the Whitmer family? On the first point, I think the historical record is too convoluted to say for sure. Emma and David Whitmer seem to have believed that he was using his brown seer stone (presumably the one currently in the Church's possession). Oliver Cowdery, on the other hand, claimed that the Nephite/Jaredite interpreters were used. Did Joseph use both? Who knows? You state that the brown seer stone can't be legit because it was found in a well. You even go so far as to say: "I mean for anyone to believe a rock, stone, found in a well and not prepared by God unlike the Urim and thummim which was prepared for the purpose of being the means of translation is just not paying attention to reality." As others have pointed out, this isn't a great argument. Why couldn't God have prepared the brown seer stone for Joseph to find? BYU historians Michael MacKay and Gerrit Dirkmaat actually say in their book From Darkness unto Light that he did: "It turns out that Joseph's seer stone was prepared by God, according to the Book of Mormon, and like the Nephite interpreters, was buried in the earth where Joseph would eventually find it" (p. 67). They cite in support of this, Alma 37:23: "The Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light." Because the punctuation was added by the printer, "Gazelem" could refer to either the servant or the stone. (W. W. Phelps believed that "Gazelem" was Joseph Smith's premortal name.) MacKay and Dirkmaat continue: "Only two years after Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ in a grove near his home, he had been inspired to find this specially prepared seer stone. But Joseph never used this seer stone in a way that would have helped him understand how to translate the plates with the spectacles. Instead, he used it to see visions of people, places, and lost items. He had not ever used this early seer stone to translate languages or ancient text. Thus, despite his prior experience with a seer stone, he was left with very little practical understanding of how he could use the seer stones in the spectacles to translate the gold plates" (p. 69). MacKay and Dirkmaat cite various accounts that seem to indicate that Joseph didn't know what to do with the spectacles at first. According to his mother, he used them to see where the plates were (when they were hidden): "he could by this means ascertain at any moment if the plates were in danger." In other words, he used them the way he had used his seer stone. There's evidence he thought the translation of the plates would be done by someone else. Either by Charles Anthon or by Joseph and Emma's firstborn son, according to some accounts. Several months went by before Joseph attempted to use the spectacles to translate the plates. So, according to MacKay and Dirkmaat, Joseph initially used the spectacles like he did his seer stone—to find things. And later, he used his seer stone the way he came to use the spectacles—to interpret unknown languages. Why not? We're outside the realm of ordinary plausibility at this point. Edited September 13, 2023 by Nevo 5 Link to comment
rjohnson7 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, Nevo said: That's the spirit. I'm in. You started out saying "For historians to author books and declare JS used a seer stone in a hat is absolutely dangerous for it implies magic and the occult." And "I have faith he was not a money digger or used a seer stone in a hat ..... magic and the occult is not acceptable to God. I have done the work and found nothing that can evidence any of this..." At one point you were questioning whether there were any eyewitnesses of Joseph using a seer stone in a hat, or whether their testimony could be trusted, but you've since conceded that there are "reliable witnesses of the seer stone in a hat." That's progress! Now, the question is, what was in the hat? Was it the Nephite/Jaredite interpreters? Joseph's white seer stone? Or his brown seer stone (or "rock" as you call it)? And was this the real method of translation, or just a show that he put on for the Whitmer family? On the first point, I think the historical record is too convoluted to say for sure. Emma and David Whitmer seem to have believed that he was using his brown seer stone (presumably the one currently in the Church's possession). Oliver Cowdery, on the other hand, claimed that the Nephite/Jaredite interpreters were used. Did Joseph use both? Who knows? You state that the brown seer stone can't be legit because it was found in a well. You even go so far as to say: "I mean for anyone to believe a rock, stone, found in a well and not prepared by God unlike the Urim and thummim which was prepared for the purpose of being the means of translation is just not paying attention to reality." As others have pointed out, this isn't a great argument. Why couldn't God have prepared the brown seer stone for Joseph to find? BYU historians Michael MacKay and Gerrit Dirkmaat actually say in their book From Darkness unto Light that he did: "It turns out that Joseph's seer stone was prepared by God, according to the Book of Mormon, and like the Nephite interpreters, was buried in the earth where Joseph would eventually find it" (p. 67). They cite in support of this, Alma 37:23: "The Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light." Because the punctuation was added by the printer, "Gazelem" could refer to either the servant or the stone. (W. W. Phelps apparently believed that "Gazelem" was Joseph Smith's premortal name.) MacKay and Dirkmaat continue: "Only two years after Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ in a grove near his home, he had been inspired to find this specially prepared seer stone. But Joseph never used this seer stone in a way that would have helped him understand how to translate the plates with the spectacles. Instead, he used it to see visions of people, places, and lost items. He had not ever used this early seer stone to translate languages or ancient text. Thus, despite his prior experience with a seer stone, he was left with very little practical understanding of how he could use the seer stones in the spectacles to translate the gold plates" (p. 69). MacKay and Dirkmaat cite various accounts that seem to indicate that Joseph didn't know what to do with the spectacles at first. According to his mother, he used them to see where the plates were (when they were hidden): "he could by this means ascertain at any moment if the plates were in danger." In other words, he used them the way he had used his seer stone. He apparently thought the translation of the plates would be done by someone else. By Charles Anthon or his firstborn son, according to some accounts. Several months went by before Joseph attempted to use the spectacles to translate the plates. So, according to MacKay and Dirkmaat, Joseph initially used the spectacles like he did his seer stone—to find things. And later, he used his seer stone the way he came to use the spectacles—to interpret unknown languages. Why not? We're outside the realm of ordinary plausibility at this point. It would help if you gave the web sites or any book so I can validate. Link to comment
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