A Breath of Fresh Air: "Do not diminish the peace and happiness many church members enjoy"

[Tacenda]

Was remembering when I was taught by my mother in Primary, back in the day where we'd go right after school during the week. She'd always bring a plate of celery and carrots to munch on for all of the class. Either to keep our mouths busy or to stave off hunger.

[smac97]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:30 AM, Teancum said:

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It either is restored or it is not; there is not halfway about it.

And that is the crux of it. For those who have concluded it is not the Tanner Op Ed may make sense really.  Many do feel lied to, deceived and gaslighted-is that a word?

"Gaslighted" is the past-tense of the verb "to gaslight," yes.

I'm not sure I'll ever understood the "feel lied to, deceived" sentiment.  I commented back in July 2022:

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I tend to want to judge Joseph Smith in the same way I would hope to be judged.  That is, not with an expectation or requirement of being utterly without flaw or sin, but rather someone who

• A) is sincerely and meaningfully aspiring to these things,
• B) has entered into a covenant relationship with God and is striving to keep said covenants,
• C) is regularly turning to repentance and seeking forgiveness for when behaviors fall short of aspirations, and when flaws in covenant-keeping happen, 
• D) during the duration of things hopes to "run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2); and
• E) as to all other fellow travellers (including figures such as Joseph Smith) strives to apply Mormon 9:31: "Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

As for Joseph Smith's overall character relative to sincerity or guile, consider these remarks by Daniel C. Peterson (addressing claims that Joseph Smith used deceit regarding the reality of the Gold Plates) :

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OK, so let’s look a little more in detail: Joseph had no plates. This is what most critics say; there were none.

All right, the first option is that he knew that he had no plates. OK. Now, this runs into a number of issues. You have to ask first of all, Was this deliberate, was it cynical or was it pious? Was he a cynical fraud, just a con-artist, 19th century con man?

I think you run into issues right there. One of the places you run into issues is with Joseph Smith’s writings, which are now being published, the personal writings of Joseph Smith, the Joseph Smith Papers. If Joseph Smith is not sincere, then I can’t judge sincerity in another human being.

This is a man who in his most personal private writings, letters to his wife, personal journal entries, they’re full of prayers. He’s praying all the time. Oh, Lord, help your servant, help me. Writing to his wife, Emma, praying, expressing prayers for her. Telling his children to be sure they say their prayers at night, this sort of thing. All the time coming across as a believer. There’s nothing, certainly there’s nothing at all in the early Joseph Smith that you could say points to someone who’s a cynical, manipulative deceiver. It’s just not there. He doesn’t let the mask fall at all. If he is one, there’s no evidence for it that I can see.
...

I don't need Joseph Smith to have been perfect.  I just need him to have been sincere, to have really experienced the things he claims.  The First Vision and other theophanies.  The Gold Plates and his translation of them.  The restoration of the Priesthood.  The revelations.  Discerning the verity of these things is principally an exercise in study and faith and prayer.  

If these things happened, then I will honor Joseph Smith for his virtues and efforts, forgive him his flaws and shortcomings, and leave judgment of him to the Lord.

Joseph and the other percipient witnesses to the foundational events of the Restoration seemed quite sincere and steadfast in their declarations of what they personally experienced.  Pretty much everyone else is "downstream" from them.  

I am open to the theoretical possibility of Joseph and the other percipient witnesses being collectively wrong, either via "supernatural" means (they were all deceived by Satan) or mundane means (they were all tripping on 'shrooms, or in the grip of some mass hysteria, etc.).  But I find it farfetched to characterize them as all having consciously "lied" to and "deceived" their contemporaries and those that followed.  That just seems to incongruous with the historical record.

I think DCP puts it well: "If Joseph Smith is not sincere, then I can’t judge sincerity in another human being."  If Joseph and the other witnesses were wrong, then I want to know that, but I would not attribute it to being "lied to" or "deceived."  That just does not work for me.

On 12/14/2022 at 9:30 AM, Teancum said:

Also then we have this quote:

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The church’s founder, Joseph Smith, famously stated “A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.” The Savior in Matthew 16:25 stated, “whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”

Personally I find such statements manipulative and controlling. 

"Manipulative" = "control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously."

"Controlling" = "inclined to control others' behavior : DOMINEERING."

For me, this falls into the "lied to" and "deceived" category.  It just does not fit.  I respect that you feel differently, tho.

On 12/14/2022 at 9:30 AM, Teancum said:

And it puts a lot of power into the hands to the religious leader promoting such ideas. 

Not sure about that.  The real issue, I think, is whether that power is appropriate, and whether it is being abused.

Joseph Smith is long dead, so not much "control" or "manipulation" or "power" there.  His successors, particularly those living now, have very little practical "control" over the lives of the Saints.  They only have as much control/power as the individual is willing to cede to them.  The individual can bow out at any time, and many do.  And the Church has circumscribed its own control/power in very substantial ways (see, e.g., D&C 134:10).

I am an active Latter-day Saint.  I could, on a dime, turn away from that forever.  There would be dynamics in play relative to my family, but not much by way of anything akin to "control" or "manipulation" or "power."

On 12/14/2022 at 9:30 AM, Teancum said:

Why does religion/God require total devotion and obedience to put one it good favor with God?

Because it is good for us?

Because He has a better perspective than we do about what we ought to do in this life?

Because agency requires that, to some extent, He conditions blessings on obedience?

Because the Plan of Salvation is all about helping us become more like Him?  "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9.)

On 12/14/2022 at 9:30 AM, Teancum said:

Really it seems more about power and control IMO at least.

I dunno.  The current crop of General Authorities seem sincere, decent, and well-informed.

Thanks,

-Smac