Zakuska Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Not so fast PD1... Im not letting you off the hook that easy.Furthermore, since we know that God has no form (Deut. 4:15) and is an invisible Spirit (Jn. 4:24; Col. 1:15), then in all likelihood what is being seen in Ez. 1:26 is an anthropomorphic vision of Jesus Christ himself. Chist is also said to be a Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 3:17) ... yet he has a body of flesh and bones. Resolve the contradition please...Luke 24: 3939 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.So what precludes God the father who is spirit as well from having a body?Second... since when does Christ ever sit on a throne. He's always portayed walking around the Throne of God. Third the greek word that is mistranslated as "invisible" in our bibles is actually better translated as "unseen". Howard Hughes was "unseen" years. Did he invent a "hollow man" formula? It has nothing to do with Gods "form"... or as you beleive... his formlessness.Forth... Num 23:19 can be said to be taking place in a "vision" as well.
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 anthropomorphic vision of Jesus Christ himself. Jesus took the book out of his Father's hand. God wants us to think of him as a Man and he wants us to remember we are made in his image. The God of Israel appears in the image of a Man because he "is a Man".That is the word of the LORD.Paul O
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Once again, Paul, the Bible reveals that God is not a man. And because he is not a man, He will not lie. On the other hand, it is possible that men may lie about God by subordinating Him to their own images, or something even lower amid creation (Rom. 1:23). Could it not be possible that the LDS are doing this everytime they dogmatically claim that God is a man? No man should change his mind from the course of truth and righteousness. Again, you misunderstand a simple message. God
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 Joshua was a man of war.The LORD is a Man of war.Both were men. One was immortal and the other mortal.Christ is a Man. It's not hard to think of the Father as a Man either.Paul O
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Paul, in verse 5 of your citation it clearly states that "the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." That person is none other than Jesus Christ, not God the Father, as a man. Yep, the Lamb who was standing behind the throne walked over and took the book out of the hand of the Father. Jesus is the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God.Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.1. Jesus is in heaven2. St. John and the angels were watching3. The Father was holding a book4. Everyone saw the Father holding a book5. No one was worthy to open the book but Jesus only6. Jesus walked over to the throne7. Jesus took the book out of the hand of the Father8. Everyone saw Jesus take the bookDon
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 Furthermore, since we know that God has no form (Deut. 4:15) and is an invisible Spirit (Jn. 4:24; Col. 1:15), then in all likelihood what is being seen in Ez. 1:26 is an anthropomorphic vision of Jesus Christ himself. God has form. You have neither seen his shape or heard his voice, but he has form and sits on a throne!God is invisible for the moment before the eyes of mortal man but that will end when the judgement comes. The invisible God is not permanently invisible as so many Christians hope. They just don't want to see God.Yes, God appears in the shape of a Man. He looks like a man, talks like a man, and he "is a Man".Paul O
Zakuska Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Because Gods word says that he is.Would you not agree that there is a difference between "carnal man" and a "man of god"?God is a glorfied immortal man.
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 PD1,The Man Christ Jesus is not a man that he should lie.God "is a Man". That is the word of God.Paul O Paul, Numbers 23:19 does not speaking about Jesus Christ. It is talking about El/Yahweh. He is not a man, that He should lie. That's right. But go tell that to Catholic Johnny. You see, Christians are a divided people when it comes to doctrine.To see Christ is to see the Father because they are both Men.Paul O
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 You might as well tell me that God is not a man AND the Lord is not his name. Deny one and you deny both!God
Zakuska Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Paul... Jesus came an took it out of the tenical of the squid of light thingy sitting on the thone.If its not leteral PD1... why does the Lord put his had on Johns back and stand him up?According to you John didnt realy see what he said he saw.
Zakuska Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 PD1,Would you mind answering my post?Chist is also said to be a Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 3:17) ... yet he has a body of flesh and bones. Resolve the contradition please...Luke 24: 3939 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.What precludes the Father from having a body like his son does?
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 Once again, Paul, the Bible reveals that God is not a man.
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 Paul, in verse 5 of your citation it clearly states that "the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
Paul Osborne Posted March 21, 2005 Author Posted March 21, 2005 Paul... Jesus came an took it out of the tenical of the squid of light thingy sitting on the thone.If its not leteral PD1... why does the Lord put his had on Johns back and stand him up?According to you John didnt realy see what he said he saw. Some people are just afraid of God. They don't want to know him for who he really is.Goodnight!Paul O
sidewinder Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 I have a few history books that discuss the Israelite religion, they aren't religious. Without exception, it seems clear that Jehovah is in fact considered a "Man of War" just as Paul says. This is a fairly mundane point, and one that is sometimes made with some jest. I personally, think Jehovah is a complete retard. But, objectively, it's clear that the old testament teaches he is a man. I'd wager from the OT account, one couldn't go so far as to say he has a body of "flesh and bone" but, then again, the Mormon view is that Jehovah is the antemortal Jesus Christ, so he would have human form, but without flesh. Of course, I find it highly doubtful the OT Johava and 21st century God the Father or son really have much in common, but judging by superficial similarities, without a question the Mormo Jesus is closer to the OT Jehovah than the Christian trinity.
Zakuska Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 I fail to see how Deut 4:15 says that God is formless? Of course the people at large didn't see God because he was behind a cloud. Thus Moses wore a veil between him and the people at large. Will Smith didn't see a UFO until after it came out of the cloud. Didn't mean the UFO was formless and invisible.
Moon Quaker Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Since we are trying to prove to each other about who God is, I would like to add that he likes macaroni and cheese (not the cheap store-brand; but the one and only, Kraft.) I know for a fact that if God knocked on my door and I invited him in, he would graciously accept my macaroni and cheese offering for lunch (which is proof positive that he likes macaroni and cheese.)
Zakuska Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Better be careful inviting him in...Zech. 5: 1 You might end up in a food fight.
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Chist is also said to be a Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 3:17) ... yet he has a body of flesh and bones. Resolve the contradition please...Luke 24: 3939 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.So what precludes God the father who is spirit as well from having a body?Second... since when does Christ ever sit on a throne. He's always portayed walking around the Throne of God. Third the greek word that is mistranslated as "invisible" in our bibles is actually better translated as "unseen". Howard Hughes was "unseen" years. Did he invent a "hollow man" formula? It has nothing to do with Gods "form"... or as you beleive... his formlessness.Forth... Num 23:19 can be said to be taking place in a "vision" as well. There is no contradiction, apart from assuming that God is a man. For we know that prior to Jesus' incarnation, he was indeed of the same essence as God the Father, and that was spirit. And given the context of 1 Cor. 15, which is talking about sin, redemption, and resurrection, what the first Adam did to cause death to reign on the human race, the second Adam reversed by graciously instilling spiritual life where otherwise there was none.A regularly repeated, fundamental flaw that the LDS consistently make when dealing with this subject is to equate God the Father with God the Son. For just because the latter was incarnated, and took on human flesh to redeem humanity, does not necessitate that the former did the same.As for your Lukan-type question, what prevents God from having a physical, human body, as the LDS suggest are many, including some of the biblical passages that have been given which demonstrably show that God is not a man. Furthermore, when one considers the many other claims made about God by the LDS, and their definitions of those attributes are taken into consideration (i.e., omnipresence, omnipotence, aseity, etc.), it becomes clear that those claims and definitions are not at all consistent with what the Bible has to say in reference to the same. In fact, if one were to pursue the arguments offered by the LDS to their logical ends, then one would eventually conclude that not only are the LDS talking about a God who is totally different than the one portrayed in scripture, but also a being that conclusively could not exist at all.As for Christ sitting on a throne, since you're being sarcastic, I shall wait until you're more sincere before replying.As for your attempt to translate the Greek word aoratos as "unseen," context is more important that merely stating that such and such is better translated thus, to support a pre-conceived theological position. Aoratos is only cited eight times in the LXX (2), Apocryphal letters (1), and NT text (5). In Genesis 1:2 aoratos is translated from the Hebrew tohu, which can be translated "formless" or "empty." Does this mean that creation was "unseen?" Hardly. Conversely, in 2 Maccabees 9:5 is the account of Antiochus, who intended to "make Jersualem a cemetery of Jews" (v. 4). Yet, when he set out to fulfill his dastardly deed, God, by an "unseen" act
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 That's right. But go tell that to Catholic Johnny. You see, Christians are a divided people when it comes to doctrine.To see Christ is to see the Father because they are both Men.Paul O Actually, there is no division in the Christian community when it comes to the question of whether God is a man or not. He is not. It is only those who have their roots and preconceptions rooted in polytheistic type thinking which are at odds with the Christian community when it comes to topics like this one. And clearly, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion.As for seeing Jesus and God the Father as men, one must unduly streeettchhh the biblical text, or plainly ignore the context, to gather that what Jesus was saying when he said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 God is right. He said that he "is a Man". Period. The other verses you refer to only imply that he is not a man that lies. He is perfect. So, don't tell me that I am denying the Bible. I'll quote it again:God "is a Man".There. I feel better. Paul O Paul, where in God's Word, the Bible, did God ever say that he was a man?As for the verses that were quoted, they were not merely implying something. God was explicitly stating a condition. God is not a man, that he should lie. For if he was a man, then he would lie. In fact, if God was a man at any time, then he would have lied, meaning that he would need to be redeemed of his sin of lying. Now, unless you're willing to conclude that God was a sinner in need of redemption, and tell us who his savior was, then don't you think it might be best correct your thinking on this one?And you may quote whatever you like, but if there's no support for the quote, then you're merely making it up, and contradicting yourself in the process. And you're not into contradictory statements as the basis of establishing truth, are you? If so, then we will never be able to carry on a meaningful dialogue.
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Hos. 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.NLT
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Some people are just afraid of God. They don't want to know him for who he really is.Goodnight!Paul O Paul, are you saying that idolatry is not a fearful thing to be committing? You do realize that idolatry is as the sin of divination/witchcraft, do you not? And you do realize that idolatry is something to be fled from, right?1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and presumption is like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you as king."1 Corinthians 10:14 So then, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!
PD1 Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 I have a few history books that discuss the Israelite religion, they aren't religious. Without exception, it seems clear that Jehovah is in fact considered a "Man of War" just as Paul says. This is a fairly mundane point, and one that is sometimes made with some jest. I personally, think Jehovah is a complete retard. But, objectively, it's clear that the old testament teaches he is a man. I'd wager from the OT account, one couldn't go so far as to say he has a body of "flesh and bone" but, then again, the Mormon view is that Jehovah is the antemortal Jesus Christ, so he would have human form, but without flesh. Of course, I find it highly doubtful the OT Johava and 21st century God the Father or son really have much in common, but judging by superficial similarities, without a question the Mormo Jesus is closer to the OT Jehovah than the Christian trinity. If the OT teaches that God is nothing more than a man, then where was this "man" at when he created the heavens and the earth? And how did this mere "man" manage to put together the universe, and all that is in it, as well as, breathe life into a lump of dirt, if he is as you say? It would seem to me that after reading the OT a bit more objectively, one should conclude that God is something other than just a man. In fact, he is not a man at all, for a man could never do what God has done in just looking at the creation record.
Zakuska Posted March 21, 2005 Posted March 21, 2005 Contradiction Alert...There is no contradiction, apart from assuming that God is a man. For we know that prior to Jesus' incarnation, he was indeed of the same essence as God the Father, and that was spirit. And given the context of 1 Cor. 15, which is talking about sin, redemption, and resurrection, what the first Adam did to cause death to reign on the human race, the second Adam reversed by graciously instilling spiritual life where otherwise there was none.What is spirit? You presupposing that God is a inmaterial cloud of light.Are angels created beings? Yet they are called spirits... (Ps. 104: 4; Heb. 1:7)Even men are called spirits ? Rev 1:4All these Spirits with Bodies. Hmmmmm.Methinks... you have no idea what you're talking about.A regularly repeated, fundamental flaw that the LDS consistently make when dealing with this subject is to equate God the Father with God the Son. For just because the latter was incarnated, and took on human flesh to redeem humanity, does not necessitate that the former did the same.Why is this a fundamental flaw?Is not to see Christ to see his father?Did not Christ do the things the father did?At least our position is backed up by Scripture.As for your Lukan-type question, what prevents God from having a physical, human body, as the LDS suggest are many, including some of the biblical passages that have been given which demonstrably show that God is not a man.Again you mischaracterize the Mormon position.God is no mere-mortal "ish" (ie man).Furthermore, when one considers the many other claims made about God by the LDS, and their definitions of those attributes are taken into consideration (i.e., omnipresence, omnipotence, aseity, etc.), it becomes clear that those claims and definitions are not at all consistent with what the Bible has to say in reference to the same. In fact, if one were to pursue the arguments offered by the LDS to their logical ends, then one would eventually conclude that not only are the LDS talking about a God who is totally different than the one portrayed in scripture, but also a being that conclusively could not exist at all.Ominpresence and omnipotence are two of the two easiest things to disporve.1st... If God is everywhere that means hes in hell to. Why do the scriptures continualy say his throne is the heavens and the earth is his foor stool. And that God is in the heavens. His eyes behold everything so we cant hid from him no matter where we go.2nd... Can God lie? Can God sin? Then how is he all powerful then?As for Christ sitting on a throne, since you're being sarcastic, I shall wait until you're more sincere before replying.Christ sits down in his fathers throne. He walks around it in Johns vision. Where John was taken to heaven.As for your attempt to translate the Greek word aoratos as "unseen," context is more important that merely stating that such and such is better translated thus, to support a pre-conceived theological position. Aoratos is only cited eight times in the LXX (2), Apocryphal letters (1), and NT text (5). In Genesis 1:2 aoratos is translated from the Hebrew tohu, which can be translated "formless" or "empty." Does this mean that creation was "unseen?" Hardly.Hmm... you might want to tell that to Johnny... he's the one that supports creation ex nihilo. From "unseen" invisible nothingness.Conversely, in 2 Maccabees 9:5 is the account of Antiochus, who intended to "make Jersualem a cemetery of Jews" (v. 4). Yet, when he set out to fulfill his dastardly deed, God, by an "unseen" act
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