Eek! Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 37 minutes ago, pogi said: We see this in the placebo effect. Belief (or "focused attention and intention") itself can heal. Many people unfortunately equate "the placebo effect" with "nothing actually happened", when the exact opposite is what the placebo effect is evidence of. 1
Jeanne Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) To the topic...and I know at least a month ago..I had already responded..today, I am different than I was yesterday...or even many months ago. I have held many things that I held dear in my former religion..but for the superpower..where are the young mothers who have had blessings to be here to raise their children...the military men who was prayed to come home..where is the children and people of the church who have died of cancer..in a promise? For those who seek a worldly peace...this may seem trivial..but for all the prayers of the world..and the Saints..where reason differs from faith..then where is the hope? Does anyone see that the faith/hope may not deem the cure...or bring mothers and fathers home..but the answer is "Thy will be done" ..or it was not God's plan..then..where is it? The hope, the faith..and the literal prayer of fasting devotion? Albeit...at least..someone may have found a set of keys..What if...what if!!! A black man in WW1,WW2, Vietnam...Korea...could have by that same powers..saved your sons! Edited March 6, 2018 by Jeanne 1
Eek! Posted March 7, 2018 Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Jeanne said: To the topic...and I know at least a month ago..I had already responded..today, I am different than I was yesterday...or even many months ago. I have held many things that I held dear in my former religion..but for the superpower..where are the young mothers who have had blessings to be here to raise their children...the military men who was prayed to come home..where is the children and people of the church who have died of cancer..in a promise? For those who seek a worldly peace...this may seem trivial..but for all the prayers of the world..and the Saints..where reason differs from faith..then where is the hope? Does anyone see that the faith/hope may not deem the cure...or bring mothers and fathers home..but the answer is "Thy will be done" ..or it was not God's plan..then..where is it? The hope, the faith..and the literal prayer of fasting devotion? Albeit...at least..someone may have found a set of keys..What if...what if!!! A black man in WW1,WW2, Vietnam...Korea...could have by that same powers..saved your sons! Jesus said a lot of weird things that seem to fly in the face of human experience. One of those was "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Not only does this seem to gloss over pain and death and injustice and tragedy, it is also quite the opposite of "endure to the end"... which, frankly, is something I never really warmed up to. He also said, "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." So if what we treasure is this or that particular outcome, when it doesn't happen, our hearts are often broken. Let's look at your friend whose patriarchal blessing said that he could raise the dead (your first post in the thread, back on February 8th), who tried and failed to raise his brother whose body was in a mortuary. I think your friend did great! How many men would have had the cajones to actually try something like that?? If we take away "treasuring the outcome", and look ONLY at whether or not your friend played his role to the best of his ability, what he attempted was off-the-charts in COURAGE and in LOVE. Imo THAT is what matters, not the "outcome". Imo his only mistake was such a strong attachment to the outcome that his heart was broken and he condemned himself when the outcome he wanted didn't happen. But it is never too late to see things differently, and to choose again. Suppose Jesus knew what he was talking about when he said "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light". This teaching implies that there's a DIFFERENT way of looking at just about everything in our lives, and presumably that different perspective is actually the CORRECT one. I believe this different way of seeing things is shown to us by the Holy Spirit (or our higher self, or our superconscious mind, or whatever term fits your belief system) once we let go of our attachments and agendas. So at the risk of oversimplifying, consider using this simple statement: "There is a different way of seeing this." This is easy to practice: Let a situation come into your mind and say to yourself, "There is a different way of seeing this" (use your own wording if you prefer). Then let that situation move on out of your mind, let the next one come in, and say it again. Do this for a few minutes a couple times a day, and finish up by sitting quietly with no agendas, allowing space for the Holy Spirit (or whatever) to show you that different perspective. Even if it seems like nothing has happened, imo you will have greatly hastened the day when your paradigm shifts, and the yoke becomes easy, and the burden light. One other thing: Ime it really helps to have a few "fall-backs"; that is, a few concepts that we can easily pull out and fall back on whenever we need to. Here are a few from my mental Rolodex: - Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. (Plato said that.) - God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons. Any line of thinking which leads to a different conclusion has a mistake in it somewhere. - Perfect love casts out all fear. If something doesn't cast out all fear, then it isn't perfect love. - There is a different way of seeing this. Maybe you have a few fall-backs already in mind; if not, feel free to use any of these, and/or just intend to find some, and they will find you. Edited March 7, 2018 by Eek! 2
Calm Posted March 7, 2018 Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) Quote - Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. (Plato said that.) If there ever was/is or will be a Truth with a capital T, I see it as this. Even God goes by it...the ultimate giver because he knows what our struggle is and would be without his kindness, probably barely climbing out of the sea onto land by now....and it is not like he is having an easy time of it either having to watch his children suffer. Quote This is easy to practice: Let a situation come into your mind and say to yourself, "There is a different way of seeing this" (use your own wording if you prefer). Then let that situation move on out of your mind, let the next one come in, and say it again. Do this for a few minutes a couple times a day, and finish up by sitting quietly with no agendas, allowing space for the Holy Spirit (or whatever) to show you that different perspective. Even if it seems like nothing has happened, imo you will have greatly hastened the day when your paradigm shifts, and the yoke becomes easy, and the burden light. Wisdom... My version: Quote For now I see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Now is the moment of past and present, then is the moment of next and future. "Then" can come in bits in pieces, clearing the darkness, purifying the glass...preparing for God's full light, full presence. Learning to see things in God's light. Edited March 7, 2018 by Calm 2
Jeanne Posted March 7, 2018 Posted March 7, 2018 14 hours ago, Eek! said: Jesus said a lot of weird things that seem to fly in the face of human experience. One of those was "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Not only does this seem to gloss over pain and death and injustice and tragedy, it is also quite the opposite of "endure to the end"... which, frankly, is something I never really warmed up to. He also said, "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." So if what we treasure is this or that particular outcome, when it doesn't happen, our hearts are often broken. Let's look at your friend whose patriarchal blessing said that he could raise the dead (your first post in the thread, back on February 8th), who tried and failed to raise his brother whose body was in a mortuary. I think your friend did great! How many men would have had the cajones to actually try something like that?? If we take away "treasuring the outcome", and look ONLY at whether or not your friend played his role to the best of his ability, what he attempted was off-the-charts in COURAGE and in LOVE. Imo THAT is what matters, not the "outcome". Imo his only mistake was such a strong attachment to the outcome that his heart was broken and he condemned himself when the outcome he wanted didn't happen. But it is never too late to see things differently, and to choose again. Suppose Jesus knew what he was talking about when he said "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light". This teaching implies that there's a DIFFERENT way of looking at just about everything in our lives, and presumably that different perspective is actually the CORRECT one. I believe this different way of seeing things is shown to us by the Holy Spirit (or our higher self, or our superconscious mind, or whatever term fits your belief system) once we let go of our attachments and agendas. So at the risk of oversimplifying, consider using this simple statement: "There is a different way of seeing this." This is easy to practice: Let a situation come into your mind and say to yourself, "There is a different way of seeing this" (use your own wording if you prefer). Then let that situation move on out of your mind, let the next one come in, and say it again. Do this for a few minutes a couple times a day, and finish up by sitting quietly with no agendas, allowing space for the Holy Spirit (or whatever) to show you that different perspective. Even if it seems like nothing has happened, imo you will have greatly hastened the day when your paradigm shifts, and the yoke becomes easy, and the burden light. One other thing: Ime it really helps to have a few "fall-backs"; that is, a few concepts that we can easily pull out and fall back on whenever we need to. Here are a few from my mental Rolodex: - Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. (Plato said that.) - God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons. Any line of thinking which leads to a different conclusion has a mistake in it somewhere. - Perfect love casts out all fear. If something doesn't cast out all fear, then it isn't perfect love. - There is a different way of seeing this. Maybe you have a few fall-backs already in mind; if not, feel free to use any of these, and/or just intend to find some, and they will find you. Thank you for your reply and perspective. I am open..I will try to look at things differently..on a plus side for me..I do try to find the good in everything if I can..I know there are others that are struggling in life and loss that I could never comprehend. It is with a grateful heart to my fellow human beings that I would expect a power that works for some..should/could work for others. Maybe not all the time..because we learn...but what ever is faith for if one cannot see a benefit in this earthly life. Thank you for taking the time to write. 1
Marginal Gains Posted March 8, 2018 Posted March 8, 2018 On 01/02/2018 at 4:49 PM, hope_for_things said: It made me feel so special and like I had a special responsibility which definitely increased my commitment level in those early years. But, there are certainly some drawbacks to teaching our kids they are so very special and have special powers from God. I would love some recommendations on how to share a more expansive perspective on this topic. Invite the ward High Priests to take the youth on a field trip to a nearby hospital where they can demonstrate to the youth the actual healing power of the Priesthood. The sight of those High Priests curing illness and disease with the Priesthood will convert them for life.
hope_for_things Posted March 8, 2018 Author Posted March 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: Invite the ward High Priests to take the youth on a field trip to a nearby hospital where they can demonstrate to the youth the actual healing power of the Priesthood. The sight of those High Priests curing illness and disease with the Priesthood will convert them for life. I'm thinking this is sarcasm, but not 100% sure.
Jeanne Posted March 8, 2018 Posted March 8, 2018 32 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I'm thinking this is sarcasm, but not 100% sure. Me, too...but hey...wouldn't that be something..I hope that people not being cured if illnesses is because conversion would be so easy..that would not be fair. Why doesnt' this work??? Why must everything based on faith...have to come the hard way?
hope_for_things Posted March 8, 2018 Author Posted March 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Me, too...but hey...wouldn't that be something..I hope that people not being cured if illnesses is because conversion would be so easy..that would not be fair. Why doesnt' this work??? Why must everything based on faith...have to come the hard way? Recognizing that there are no quick fixes, no shortcuts, no superpowers can be sad, but I think that is part of growing up. I enjoy movies and books about the fantastical still, its fun to imagine things as an escape from reality. 1
Marginal Gains Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 14 hours ago, hope_for_things said: I'm thinking this is sarcasm, but not 100% sure. Are you saying you don’t think it’s a good suggestion? If not, why not?
Eek! Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 22 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Invite the ward High Priests to take the youth on a field trip to a nearby hospital where they can demonstrate to the youth the actual healing power of the Priesthood. The sight of those High Priests curing illness and disease with the Priesthood will convert them for life. Maybe it's not as simple as it appears at first glance? Here's an imperfect analogy: If a basketball player makes a foul shot, then why doesn't he just do that exact same thing every time? Why don't they all just do that exact same thing every time? It sure doesn't look that hard.
Marginal Gains Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Eek! said: Maybe it's not as simple as it appears at first glance? Here's an imperfect analogy: If a basketball player makes a foul shot, then why doesn't he just do that exact same thing every time? Why don't they all just do that exact same thing every time? It sure doesn't look that hard. How does your analogy relate to the High Priests field trip to the local hospital?
hope_for_things Posted March 9, 2018 Author Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Are you saying you don’t think it’s a good suggestion? If not, why not? It could be a good activity, I'm sure the youth would see the HP interacting with the sick and there is probably some level of benefit just from the visits themselves. Believing that the people blessed will be healed is one problematic aspect. Believing that Mormons possess a special ability from God for healing that is unique to Mormonism is another problem. What's the net result of all the good and bad aspects of the activity? I'm not sure how to effectively measure it. I personally think that a service activity to those that are in need and receptive to the service, actual service that makes a measurable difference, would be a better use of time. Edited March 9, 2018 by hope_for_things
Eek! Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said: How does your analogy relate to the High Priests field trip to the local hospital? It is an example of something that "is not as simple as it appears at first glance." My point being, your proposed field trip where High Priests go around healing the sick may not be as simple as it appears at first glance.
Marginal Gains Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 On 09/03/2018 at 5:36 PM, Eek! said: It is an example of something that "is not as simple as it appears at first glance." My point being, your proposed field trip where High Priests go around healing the sick may not be as simple as it appears at first glance. Why not? What if Apostles did it?
Eek! Posted March 14, 2018 Posted March 14, 2018 (edited) On 3/13/2018 at 7:47 AM, Marginal Gains said: Why not? What if Apostles did it? Very valid question. This will all just be my opinion of course. Several things come to mind: 1. I don't think “higher priesthood rank” automatically correlates with “greater power when it comes to giving blessings.” I've seen non-priesthood-holders bless and heal people. Jesus had this to say: “And these signs shall follow them that believe... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” So apparently, according to Jesus, the privilege of giving blessings extends to all believers. I don't think Joseph Smith forbade non-priesthood-holders from giving blessings; I think that prohibition came along later, but that's another topic for another thread. 2. In my limited experience, real intent matters. You gotta really care about the person, you gotta put your whole soul into it, or else you're just "going through the motions". I'm sure some people could bless a complete stranger with 100% real intent, but I'm not sure everyone can. 3. In my experience where the recipient is conscious and alert, to a certain extent it's a two-way street. It's like the recipient's part of the process is to be receptive. 4. If there are emotional barriers or reservations or walls put up by anyone directly involved, that works against the process. Fear also works against it in my experience. 5. Consent is absolutely a part of the process. However if the person is unconscious, depending on the circumstances, I might decide to err on the side of assuming they'd consent if they were conscious. 6. If there is any ego-tripping going on, like showing off one's priesthood superpowers, that works against the process. 7. I believe the proper role of the person giving the blessing is to give it his or her very best effort, and then to let go of any attachment to the outcome. We just don't know what's “supposed” to happen, so our tendency to fixate on the outcome is mis--placed. A maximum expression of love is never out of place, and giving a blessing is one form that a maximum expression of love can take. 8. Nobody gets out of this world alive. If the only outcome we will be happy with is that the person is healed and keeps on living, and if that's our yardstick for evaluating the effectiveness of prayers and blessings, we're going to have a real hard time not becoming cynical eventually. Edited March 14, 2018 by Eek! 1
Marginal Gains Posted March 15, 2018 Posted March 15, 2018 On 14/03/2018 at 5:01 AM, Eek! said: Very valid question. This will all just be my opinion of course. Several things come to mind: 1. I don't think “higher priesthood rank” automatically correlates with “greater power when it comes to giving blessings.” I've seen non-priesthood-holders bless and heal people. Jesus had this to say: “And these signs shall follow them that believe... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” So apparently, according to Jesus, the privilege of giving blessings extends to all believers. I don't think Joseph Smith forbade non-priesthood-holders from giving blessings; I think that prohibition came along later, but that's another topic for another thread. 2. In my limited experience, real intent matters. You gotta really care about the person, you gotta put your whole soul into it, or else you're just "going through the motions". I'm sure some people could bless a complete stranger with 100% real intent, but I'm not sure everyone can. 3. In my experience where the recipient is conscious and alert, to a certain extent it's a two-way street. It's like the recipient's part of the process is to be receptive. 4. If there are emotional barriers or reservations or walls put up by anyone directly involved, that works against the process. Fear also works against it in my experience. 5. Consent is absolutely a part of the process. However if the person is unconscious, depending on the circumstances, I might decide to err on the side of assuming they'd consent if they were conscious. 6. If there is any ego-tripping going on, like showing off one's priesthood superpowers, that works against the process. 7. I believe the proper role of the person giving the blessing is to give it his or her very best effort, and then to let go of any attachment to the outcome. We just don't know what's “supposed” to happen, so our tendency to fixate on the outcome is mis--placed. A maximum expression of love is never out of place, and giving a blessing is one form that a maximum expression of love can take. 8. Nobody gets out of this world alive. If the only outcome we will be happy with is that the person is healed and keeps on living, and if that's our yardstick for evaluating the effectiveness of prayers and blessings, we're going to have a real hard time not becoming cynical eventually. That’s a lot of small print in the disclaimer section explaining why Priesthood Blessings don’t work.
Eek! Posted March 15, 2018 Posted March 15, 2018 4 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: That’s a lot of small print in the disclaimer section explaining why Priesthood Blessings don’t work. I'm pretty sure I never said they don't work.
Marginal Gains Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 17 hours ago, Eek! said: I'm pretty sure I never said they don't work. Not wittingly.
Eek! Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Marginal Gains said: Not wittingly. In that case, I hope you enjoyed our conversation. I wish you well. Edited March 17, 2018 by Eek!
BillyandJane Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 On 3/6/2018 at 9:03 PM, Eek! said: "There is a different way of seeing this" I love this! If only everyone would adopt this mindset, imagine the world we would live in!
Eek! Posted March 17, 2018 Posted March 17, 2018 26 minutes ago, BillyandJane said: I love this! If only everyone would adopt this mindset, imagine the world we would live in! Thank you - both of you!
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