God probably won't allow us to find Nahom

[SamuelTheLamanite]

16 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Now, have you found a NHM anywhere else than the South Arabia area?

Yes. Will copy my last response in case you didn't see it. Message Board glitches are possible.

Quote

There is one NHM inscription in North Arabia that dates to the time of Lehi. I have no idea if it is an ancient place name,  it doesn't say. See http://krc.orient.ox.ac.uk/ociana/corpus/pages/OCIANA_0047115.html

According to website NHM inscription is from Taymanitic. Taymanitic dates to mid-1st millennium BCE

Search nhm here http://krcfm.orient.ox.ac.uk/fmi/webd#ociana  in the "transliterated text" and look for Taymanitic

 

16 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

 I noted that it is not surprising being as the languages of the South Arabian tribes had Semitic roots as does Hebrew. It would be more surprising if there were no matches whatsoever.

How is finding NHM in old South Arabia evidence? Are the odds "nearly impossible" for a coincidence?

Edited September 25, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Glenn101]

58 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

There is one NHM inscription in North Arabia that dates to the time of Lehi. I have no idea if it is an ancient place name,  it doesn't say. See http://krc.orient.ox.ac.uk/ociana/corpus/pages/OCIANA_0047115.html

Pardon. You posted evidently while I was replying to your other post. The Taymāʾ inscriptions are grafitti and the NHM inscription is noted as a personal name of unknown date. Taymāʾ is also an oasis and an important stop on the frankincense trail which went through the Nehem area. It cannot be proven that the nhm was a person that lived in the Nehem area, but you are still in Old Arabia and along the routes that lead to and from the Nehem area. Can you get us out of that area? Especially a toponym? That is the challenge, as I have already noted, presented by the Book of Mormon, to find a place named NHM.

I do not know if you understand the point I am trying to make here. (I do not mean to sound condescending. Please pardon me if I come across that way.) I am not making a point of impossible odds on the name Nahom, etc. It is a Biblical personal name (Nahum the prophet) and all Joseph would have had to do was change one letter to make it Nahom. Then there is Naham in 1 Chronicles 4:19, another personal name. Yet when we come to the passage in question we have what has heretofore been personal names applied used as a toponymn.

Did Joseph Smith have access to any of the maps made previous to the publication of the Book of Mormon that showed a Nehem area? As far as I know there has not been a case made for Joseph having access to any of those maps. Did he have any idea that Nehem, Nahom, (and Naham) had the same Semitic root?

Did Joseph have any idea that there was a strip of verdant land along the South East Arabian peninsula (not shown on any of the maps)?

Is there any other way that one could follow Nephi's directions and come across a Valley of Lemuel and a NHM, and Bountiful that let onto a part of the ocean where prevailing winds and ocean currents could get them to somewhere in the Americas, currently mesoAmerica being the popular choice?

Glenn

Edited September 25, 2017 by Glenn101
another thought.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

38 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Pardon. You posted evidently while I was replying to your other post. The Taymāʾ inscriptions are grafitti and the NHM inscription is noted as a personal name of unknown date.

Need a reference please. The website doesn't say it is a personal name. Taymanitic dates to the time of Lehi.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Can you get us out of that area? Especially a toponym? That is the challenge, as I have already noted, presented by the Book of Mormon, to find a place named NHM.

Sure, where do you want me to start?

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

 I am not making a point of impossible odds on the name Nahom, etc. It is a Biblical personal name (Nahum the prophet) and all Joseph would have had to do was change one letter to make it Nahom. Then there is Naham in 1 Chronicles 4:19, another personal name. Yet when we come to the passage in question we have what has heretofore been personal names applied used as a toponymn.

You told me "it is hardly a coincidence that many Old Testament names match toponymns in Old South Arabia." Why would Smith, Lehi, Nephi, or anyone else need a map?

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

 Did he have any idea that Nehem, Nahom, (and Naham) had the same Semitic root?

Didn't have to

Edited September 25, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[thesometimesaint]

The ever increasing size of book collection in the 1829 Palmyra Reading Lending Library.

[Glenn101]

8 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Sure, where do you want me to start?

You told me "it is hardly a coincidence that many Old Testament names match toponymns in Old South Arabia." Why would Smith, Lehi, Nephi, or anyone else need a map?

A good place to start is Egypt. Semitic language and ties to the Israelites.

I actually should have said that it is hardly a coincidence that many Old Testament names are attested to in inscriptions in Old South Arabia. I have not suggested that Lehi or Nephi would need a map. They had the Liahona. My suggestion was that if Joseph Smith had seen a map with the Nehem/Nehm name on it he could have used that map as his guide for Nephi's travel narrative. Since Joseph had never been to that region it must have been in his secret library where he maintained all of the materials on which he relied to develop his overall narrative. It had to be an eclectic ensemble and if it could be unearthed all of this speculation could be put to rest.

Glenn

[SamuelTheLamanite]

4 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

A good place to start is Egypt. Semitic language and ties to the Israelites.

I first need a reference for "the NHM inscription is noted as a personal name of unknown date" please.  

4 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I actually should have said that it is hardly a coincidence that many Old Testament names are attested to in inscriptions in Old South Arabia...Since Joseph had never been to that region it must have been in his secret library where he maintained all of the materials on which he relied to develop his overall narrative.

why would a map or library be necessary? 

Edited September 25, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[thesometimesaint]

Because it would give some natural means for JS to have made the claim to those spots being in the real world. All he had to do was look at a map or read a book.

Edited September 25, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I first need a reference for "the NHM inscription is noted as a personal name of unknown date" please.  

why would a map or library be necessary? 

The reference is your own link. 

"

Transliteration
1: nḥ{m}

Translation
1: {Nḥm}

Commentary
A large rectangular slab of greenish sandstone in the western wall of the "temple".
TA 06227.1 to 06227.4 are names carved randomly on this slab. All read from right to left

Subjects
Name only

Tagged Onomastics:
nḥm - Personal Name

Country: Saudi Arabia
Region: Tabūk
Site: Taymāʾ
Latitude: 27.62233
Longitude: 38.53882
Present Location: In situ
Find date: 2008
Survey: Saudi-German excavations 2008, Area E9, SU 0341
Associated Inscriptions: TA 06227.1, TA 06227.2, TA 06227.3

URL of this record (for citation): http://krc.orient.ox.ac.uk/ociana/corpus/pages/OCIANA_0047115.html

 

 

 

What thesometimesaint said: "Because it would give some natural means for JS to have made the claim to those spots being in the real world. All he had to do was look at a map or read a book." Maybe you should look at much of the ongoing dialog that has gone on over the years concerning the production of the Book of Mormon. Those critical of the Book of Mormon story have been making naturalistic explanations for the anomalous things in the Book of Mormon that appear to have been outside of his supposed ken.

Glenn

Edited September 25, 2017 by Glenn101
Added some info.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

19 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

The reference is your own link. 

Yes, I didn't see it. However, Taymanitic does date to the time of Lehi.   

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Because it would give some natural means for JS to have made the claim to those spots being in the real world. All he had to do was look at a map or read a book.

We all seem to agree that matches for Old Testament names are very common in Old South Arabia. I honestly don't understand why a library or map is necessary.  

Edited September 25, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

21 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

toponymn.

One moment. In the Old South Arabia database I can't find NHM as a toponym. 

 http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=701600120

There are about 1,000 toponyms, NHM is not one of them. 

 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 9/23/2017 at 1:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Just how many unlikely things do you prefer to explain before breakfast each day, Sam?

I don't know, but I do have a question. I know we already discussed it, but in the Old South Arabia database I can't find NHM as a toponym. 

 http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=701600120

There are about 1,000 toponyms, NHM is not one of them.  Do you have a reliable source in English that says NHM in Ba'ran is a toponym? Please 

[Glenn101]

53 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

We all seem to agree that matches for Old Testament names are very common in Old South Arabia. I honestly don't understand why a library or map is necessary.  

A library or map is not necessary for a person that is dictating a text from another document or by the gift and power of God. If Nahom in the Book of Mormon had appeared as the name of a person or if Nephi had said that they named the place Nahom it would have little significance. What is significant is that Nephi said that the place was called Nahom. Hugh Nibley commented (1956 I believe) on that long before (1978) Dr. Ross Christensen then a professor at BYU had found a 1763 map showing a region called Nehem in South Arabia, Yemen region. Nibley had used Nephi's general directions to propose a route which would have taken Lehi's brood through the general area. In the 1970's Lyn and Hope Hilton actually traveled a route that they believed Lehi and company took. It also took them generally through the Nehem region, before the map was discovered.

It was Warren P. Aston that first used the map as a reference. And so far NHM as a place name has only been found in that Southern Arabia location. The Nihm tribal name found on the altars is important because they date the NHM name back at least to Lehi's time, not that they establish a place name (which they do not). If Joseph were just making the whole Book of Mormon up he would have had to make an extremely lucky guess as to the directions the Lehi clan traveled when they left the Jerusalem area and the trip down the peninsula and across to Bountiful, or he had a map showing Nehem and based his narrative on that.

Glenn

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I don't know, but I do have a question. I know we already discussed it, but in the Old South Arabia database I can't find NHM as a toponym. 

 http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=701600120

There are about 1,000 toponyms, NHM is not one of them.  Do you have a reliable source in English that says NHM in Ba'ran is a toponym? Please 

Right off the top of my head, I was under the impression that NHM at Bar'an was a tribal/family name, as well as a vocational designation.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Sam.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/24/2017 at 6:32 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

There is one NHM inscription in North Arabia that dates to the time of Lehi. I have no idea if it is an ancient place name,  it doesn't say. See http://krc.orient.ox.ac.uk/ociana/corpus/pages/OCIANA_0047115.html

According to website one NHM inscription is from Taymanitic. Taymanitic dates to mid-1st millennium BCE

Search nhm here http://krcfm.orient.ox.ac.uk/fmi/webd#ociana  in the "transliterated text" and look for Taymanitic

The NHM you cite as Taymanitic is a personal name from Northwest Arabia (Tayma), and is in a language closely related to Northwest Semitic, rather than Arabic.  The date of the inscription is tied to the temple  wall, TA 06227.1 to 06227.4, and the other inscriptions on that wall.  You would need to read the German excavation report to determine that.  However, Tayma is nowhere near the trail taken by Clan Lehi, and is therefore unrelated.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/23/2017 at 10:33 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

nhr is a tophonim according to website http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=125562805. Also see Minaeans. 

I understand Nehor and nhr are unrelated, it is just a coincidence that nhr is west of Khor Rori, and dates close to the time of Lehi. The region of the mineans is allowed by Book of Mormon description, see map below. Yes, nhr = Nehor is a meaningless comparison because it is just a coincidence. 

No.  It is meaningless because they do not share the same consonants.  People who don't read Hebrew are simply not aware of the fact, as I explained much earlier.  Minean is after the time of Lehi anyhow.

On 9/23/2017 at 10:33 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

"The Minaean people were the inhabitants of the kingdom of Ma'in (Old South Arabian mʿn, vocalized Maʿīn; modern Arabic معين Maʿīn) in modern day Yemen, dating back to the 6th century BCE-150 BCE"

Minean is after the time of Lehi, as you yourself indicate here.

Quote

I know Book of Mormon Nahom is not found in the Old Testament, but the Book of Mormon has many Old Testament names.  I think it is possible that Nahom place was named after the prophet Nehemia. 

Nahom looks like Naham or the prophet Nehemia. What are the odds? 

Nehemia is after the time of Lehi.  As I have explained to you before, Nahum is the name most closely resembling Nahom.

Quote

Do you and Robert believe that Nahom evidences are "nearly impossible" odds? 

Scholars don't deal with "nearly impossible" odds, which you seem to like a great deal.  They deal with plausible explanations and probabilities -- especially with the preponderance of evidence, which you apparently don't like.

Quote

My point is the the "X" in the Nehem map is just coincidence. Ishmael dying in Nahom is another coincidence. Life is full of coincidences. 

I still don't understand how possibilities are evidences. I agree it is possible.

As I said above, scholars deal with plausible explanations and probabilities -- especially with the preponderance of evidence, which you apparently don't like.

Quote

I probably missed it sorry. Nhr is west of Khor Rori, nhr is in a region allowed by Book of Mormon description. Miniac language is close to the Nehem tribe region, see map above. 

Yes, Nehor is not in the Bible, you find many more matches for Biblical names. 

Nehor is not in the Bible, but Nahor is, and they may have been pronounced the same way by readers of the KJV Bible, so one may be meant as the other by the ignorant reader or scribe.  Nhr "river" is unrelated to them.

Quote

Nephi didn't mention a lot of things, including contact with outsiders. See what PeterPear writes above. 

Nephi writes, "many more things which I do not write in this book; for I have written as many of them as were expedient for me in mine other book." .......................................

Escellent point.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Right off the top of my head, I was under the impression that NHM at Bar'an was a tribal/family name, as well as a vocational designation.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Sam.

Arabic scholar told me there is no evidence that NHM in Bar'ran is a toponym.  I am asking for a reference in English that specifically says NHM in Ba'ran is a toponym. 

When you only search for toponyms  on database "NHM" is not included either because the database is still incomplete, or NHM in Ba'ran is not a toponym. 

Other NHM inscriptions in Old South Arabia are not a toponym. 

word	language	lexicon/onomastics	occurrences
nhm
	Minaic
		lexicon	1
	Ḥaḍramitic
		Man	1

 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

.  However, Tayma is nowhere near the trail taken by Clan Lehi, and is therefore unrelated.

I understand, I was simply showing Glenn101 that NHM (in the time of Lehi) can also be found in other parts of Arabia. We all agree NHM in North Arabia is just a coincidence. 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Nhr "river" is unrelated to them.

I know, it is just a fun coincidence to find Nehor and "river" in the same verse. Coincidences do happen everywhere. 

I was simply replying to Ryan's "all in a few verses right after mentioning Nahom" comment. It is normal for daughters to cry when their father dies "daughter mourning for their father," - Mosiah 21:9. 

Daughters crying for their father is not a coincidence, the only coincidence is that Ishmael happened to die in (or near) Nahom.  

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Scholars don't deal with "nearly impossible" odds, which you seem to like a great deal.  They deal with plausible explanations and probabilities -- especially with the preponderance of evidence, which you apparently don't like.

It was Stephen Smoot who said it was "nearly impossible" for NHM to be a coincidence. Remember what Cinepro told us and you agreed with his comment "it's misleading to only consider the probability of events after they occur"?  So tell me how do you calculate the probability of finding Nahom?  

Quote

Escellent point.

Thank You

Edited September 26, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

15 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

 Hugh Nibley commented (1956 I believe) on that long before (1978) Dr. Ross Christensen then a professor at BYU had found a 1763 map showing a region called Nehem in South Arabia, Yemen region. Nibley had used Nephi's general directions to propose a route which would have taken Lehi's brood through the general area. In the 1970's Lyn and Hope Hilton actually traveled a route that they believed Lehi and company took. It also took them generally through the Nehem region, before the map was discovered.

Okay, what you are telling me is very interesting. It would be very impressive if Nibley predicted Nahom to be some miles north of Sana'a before looking at the Nehem maps or tribe names (including names similar to Nehem).  Do you have a reference please? Need to read it for myself. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Arabic scholar told me there is no evidence that NHM in Bar'ran is a toponym.  I am asking for a reference in English that specifically says NHM in Ba'ran is a toponym. 

When you only search for toponyms  on database "NHM" is not included either because the database is still incomplete, or NHM in Ba'ran is not a toponym. 

What I said, Sam.  "NHM at Bar'an was a tribal/family name, as well as a vocational designation."  Who said it was a toponym?  Another strawman by you.

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I understand, I was simply showing Glenn101 that NHM (in the time of Lehi) can also be found in other parts of Arabia. We all agree NHM in North Arabia is just a coincidence. 

I know, it is just a fun coincidence to find Nehor and "river" in the same verse. Coincidences do happen everywhere. 

But irrelevant in both cases because from a time after Lehi.

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I was simply replying to Ryan's "all in a few verses right after mentioning Nahom" comment. It is normal for daughters to cry when their father dies "daughter mourning for their father," - Mosiah 21:9. 

Daughters crying for their father is not a coincidence, the only coincidence is that Ishmael happened to die in (or near) Nahom.

When a writer or editor chooses to make a wordplay, he has to have something on which to base that wordplay., otherwise it cannot be done.  So coincidences do play a strong role in such literary features.  You'll note that Joseph Smith could have known nothing of such a literary feature.  Only in modern times do we have the ability to go into a text and ferret out any such instances of wordplay.

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

It was Stephen Smoot who said it was "nearly impossible" for NHM to be a coincidence. Remember what Cinepro told us and you agreed with his comment "it's misleading to only consider the probability of events after they occur"?  So tell me how do you calculate the probability of finding Nahom?  .................................

I agreed generally with cinepro that probabilities need to be calculated.  It is a truism that one cannot calculate the probability of something if one does not know what that something is.  Having said that, it does not mean that such calculations are easy.  What is clear, just based on common sense is that dismissing something as "just a coincidence," as you do, is silly and irresponsible.  There are dozens of occasions for wordplay in the Book of Mormon, just as there are in the Bible.  Dismissing them out of hand is anti-intellectual and unscholarly.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Okay, what you are telling me is very interesting. It would be very impressive if Nibley predicted Nahom to be some miles north of Sana'a before looking at the Nehem maps or tribe names (including names similar to Nehem).  Do you have a reference please? Need to read it for myself. 

That was in "Lehi in the Desert: The World of Jaredites" published serially in the LDS "Improvement Era" in 1950. I think it is available online at the Maxwell Institute but I have not been able to find a downloadable PDF. It also appears in Volume Five of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley. I used to have a CDROM that had it also, but I lost it years ago. The maps were not discovered until the late seventies.

When I first read the Book of Mormon as a youngster I got the impression that Lehi and his entourage traveled through and empty land devoid of people and that the Americas were uninhabited when they first landed here. Nephi does not mention meeting anyone at all anywhere on their journey. But after reading "Lehi in the Desert" and later publications from different sources I came to realize that unless the Lord cloaked the party in an invisibility shield, it would have been next to impossible. In a desert as harsh and inhospitable such as that found on the Arabian Peninsula every body of water, every oasis, every puddle is known to the local tribes and is guarded and maintained zealously. Lehi's first stop at the place he named the "Valley of Lemuel" and the "River Laman", a stream that evidently flowed year around, would have almost surely been known and claimed by the local tribe. There were not a lot of streams along the Red Sea shore, if any that flowed year around. Water had to be obtained chiefly from wells. If Lehi left during the rainy season there could have been temporary streams and ponds along the way but once that season was over they would have had to dig their own wells or obtain water from wells that were already in existence. That would involve interacting with people. Also the coast of the Read sea was a notoriously infested with pirates that attacked Read Sea trading ships. It was a dangerous area for land or sea travelers. Yet there is not one word by Nephi about buying water or any difficulties with robbers or the like. 

On another note about the burial of Ishmael, I suggested that Ishmael may not have actually died in the Nahom area but his body may have been transported there to be buried in one of the Nehem burial sites of which they may have been informed by a local tribe. That was ridiculed by our sardonic peterpear, however Nibley notes in that Lehi in the Desert piece that "Note that this is not “a place which we called Nahom,” but the place which was so called, a desert burial ground. Jaussen reports that though Bedouins sometimes bury the dead where they die, many carry the remains great distances to bury them. Antonin Jaussen, “Chronique,” P. 607

Burial in the desert was seemingly not quite the same as other places. I thought that I had read about this before and found it in "Lehi in the Desert."

There also is a Wadi Nihm with a burial site but I have not been able to find its definite location.

Glenn

[Glenn101]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Just wanted to get your attention to ask a question about the location of Wadi Nihm. I have not been able to locate it on a map and was hoping you could enlighten me. Thanks

Glenn

[Robert F. Smith]

54 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Just wanted to get your attention to ask a question about the location of Wadi Nihm. I have not been able to locate it on a map and was hoping you could enlighten me. Thanks.....

I was not familiar with it myself, so I went online and found a map of it at https://mapcarta.com/27031464 (Wādī Ḩarīb Nihm).  You can move the items in the map around, and you can see that the Wadi is a dry riverbed in the Nihm tribal area.  There is also a Jabal Nihm, "Mount Nihm" in the same area: see Google Maps at  https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Sana'a,+Yemen/Jibal+Nihm,+Yemen/@15.5013449,44.2467402,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x1603dbd54684f731:0xa46b957a1482ac73!2m2!1d44.1910066!2d15.3694451!1m5!1m1!1s0x160197b5dec3a8cf:0x1606b3a1f2c16cac!2m2!1d44.5833333!2d15.6333333 .

[SamuelTheLamanite]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What I said, Sam.  "NHM at Bar'an was a tribal/family name, as well as a vocational designation."  Who said it was a toponym?  Another strawman by you.

What is the difference between "vocational designation" and a toponym? Both Neal and Ryan require me to find Old Testament names that match ancient toponymns near the Nehem area. 

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

But irrelevant in both cases because from a time after Lehi.

Taymanitic dates to the time of Lehi. Minaean is close to the time of Lehi. 

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

When a writer or editor chooses to make a wordplay, he has to have something on which to base that wordplay., otherwise it cannot be done.  So coincidences do play a strong role in such literary features.  You'll note that Joseph Smith could have known nothing of such a literary feature.  Only in modern times do we have the ability to go into a text and ferret out any such instances of wordplay.

What exactly makes 1 Ne. 16:34 a wordplay, and not a coincidence? Isn't it normal for daughters to cry for their father? How is the "Nehor" and "river" verse different? 

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 What is clear, just based on common sense is that dismissing something as "just a coincidence," as you do, is silly and irresponsible.  There are dozens of occasions for wordplay in the Book of Mormon, just as there are in the Bible.  Dismissing them out of hand is anti-intellectual and unscholarly.

Yep, we are in agreement.  I am not saying NHM is a coincidence,  I just don't see "nearly impossible" odds for NHM to be a coincidence. 

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

That was in "Lehi in the Desert: The World of Jaredites" published serially in the LDS "Improvement Era" in 1950. I think it is available online at the Maxwell Institute but I have not been able to find a downloadable PDF. It also appears in Volume Five of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley. I used to have a CDROM that had it also, but I lost it years ago. The maps were not discovered until the late seventies.

I will look for it tonight, so far I only found the 1980s version. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Glenn101]

22 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I will look for it tonight, so far I only found the 1980s version. 

It was in version on the Maxwell Institute site. Harder to find because it is not a continuous document there.

Glenn

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

What is the difference between "vocational designation" and a toponym? Both Neal and Ryan require me to find Old Testament names that match ancient toponymns near the Nehem area. 

A toponym is a place-name (a geographical designation), while a vocational name is a job or specialist-name like "smith" or "stone-cutter."

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Taymanitic dates to the time of Lehi. Minaean is close to the time of Lehi. 

No they don't, and you yourself gave the date as after Lehi, 6th century BC and later.  You need to pay attention to your sources.

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

What exactly makes 1 Ne. 16:34 a wordplay, and not a coincidence? Isn't it normal for daughters to cry for their father? How is the "Nehor" and "river" verse different? 

Wordplay (paronomasia) is a literary category, while a coincidence is an occurrence.  They are completely unrelated designations.  Someone may mourn at any time, but it is only a wordplay if the name of a place of a sad event carries that meaning.  The LDS Bible contains hundreds of notes citing such wordplays.  They are quite common and scholars accept that they are deliberate, not just coincidences.  They take place in both the OT and NT. We also see many of them in the Book of Mormon.

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yep, we are in agreement.  I am not saying NHM is a coincidence,  I just don't see "nearly impossible" odds for NHM to be a coincidence.  ......................................

I guess the crucial question would be, Do you accept the scholarly concept of wordplay at all?  Do you understand it?