mnn727 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) On 7/20/2017 at 0:21 AM, Yirgacheffe said: Isn't that service with an ulterior motive? We're in pretty good company, Christ used Service to convert others also. Edited July 21, 2017 by mnn727 2
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) The answer reallly hinges on the recipient. Hinges on their love lnaguage. Their love language might appreciate outward tasks/projects like that...*very* much. For others? Meh. Wouldn't do much of a thing for them, and might even make them uncomfortable that you felt the need to serve them. Would I like to be served? Nope. Would simply prefer a friend...dunno how many are likeminded. For me, I'd rmuch ather be invited for a walk. Or on a road trip to be able to talk enroute (one of my fondest memories from last year was precisely that).. Or be able to share a simple or nice meal (even cook it myself) for someone who appreciates a discussion over a meal. Maybe take in a museum. Discuss a book or a topic that we both loved. I wouldn't consider that "service." I would consider that simple friendship. Some need verbal affirmations. etc. What, to you, would serve your needs best? We all have different tastes/needs. Something I'm just starting to learn/internalize/appreciate now. Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7 2
Five Solas Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 8:15 AM, Alan said: Reading the whole article, it doesn't appear to be a very successful method given that the convert rate has fallen. Service has a place, of course, but I am personally very uncomfortable with service rendered with an ulterior motive. It's interesting, LDS in the age of "JustServe." Yes, doing things is important. But the motive behind the doing of things is even more important. God discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12). And yet LDS are increasingly divided over what they believe. Does the Book of Mormon describe literal, historical events? And if you answer no, should you still qualify for a temple recommend? Some deny even having a theology. Don'tThink, JustServe. But from an outsider's perspective, it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe we just need to give it more time... ;0) --Erik ____________________________ I hear the roar of a big machine Two worlds and in between Hot metal and methedrine I hear empire down --Sisters of Mercy
Kenngo1969 Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 30 minutes ago, Five Solas said: It's interesting, LDS in the age of "JustServe." Yes, doing things is important. But the motive behind the doing of things is even more important. God discerns the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Hebrews 4:12). And yet LDS are increasingly divided over what they believe. Does the Book of Mormon describe literal, historical events? And if you answer no, should you still qualify for a temple recommend? Some deny even having a theology. Don'tThink, JustServe. But from an outsider's perspective, it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe we just need to give it more time... ;0) --Erik ____________________________ I hear the roar of a big machine Two worlds and in between Hot metal and methedrine I hear empire down --Sisters of Mercy Your glee at the supposed foreboding, pending downfall of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may not be tiresome to anyone else ... There will come a time when you won't necessarily see it as being in your best interest to chortle at the supposed misfortune of another faith or of its adherents. What you conveniently overlook is that secularists don't look with any more favor on your brand of faith than they do on anyone else's. When that time comes, I hope you will find the friends of faith you will so desperately need. Hopefully you haven't burned all of the bridges they otherwise could traverse in order to reach you to provide the assistance you seek. 1
Five Solas Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Your glee at the supposed foreboding, pending downfall of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may not be tiresome to anyone else ... There will come a time when you won't necessarily see it as being in your best interest to chortle at the supposed misfortune of another faith or of its adherents. What you conveniently overlook is that secularists don't look with any more favor on your brand of faith than they do on anyone else's. When that time comes, I hope you will find the friends of faith you will so desperately need. Hopefully you haven't burned all of the bridges they otherwise could traverse in order to reach you to provide the assistance you seek. Forgive my bluntness, Kenngo1969, but this is rubbish. Some LDS have developed a notion that an epic struggle exists between "secularists" and Hindus-Muslims-Mormons-Christians-etc. And that somehow the latter camp needs to pull it together. Because, well, isn't it obvious? - Jesus needs Ganesh, otherwise, you know, all that stuff Bill Maher said... It merits it's own thread, certainly. But in the meantime, why do you think this, Kenngo1969? I'm calling you out. Defend yourself! :0) --Erik _____________________________ You need another lover Like you need a hole in yo head --Prince, 1958 - 2016 Edited July 23, 2017 by Five Solas date
Kenngo1969 Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 Erik: It's certainly your right to think that secularists don't look askance at people of faith, and at faith itself, if you wish. Many people ... even sincere, well-intentioned, intelligent, principled people ... are greatly mistaken about a great number of things. You would be in good company. I'm uncertain why you think my position is rubbish. Your reply amounts to nothing more than "Your position is rubbish ... because it's rubbish." You need evidence of secularist antipathy toward religion? You think secularists think your crap [from their perspective] smells like roses, and it's only everyone else's crap that they think actually smells like crap? Your religion (and this is a sincere question, not an attempt at a dig or a slam) is progressive enough on such issues as abortion, gay marriage, and so on, that secularists are fine with it ... it's only those with much more conservative positions with which they have a problem? Befuddledly yours, -Ken 2
Five Solas Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: ... You need evidence of secularist antipathy toward religion? ... Sure, let's start with that. Famous biologist and avowed atheist Richard Dawkins once called Christianity Western Civilization's "bulwark" against jihad and other ideas. Whatever his disagreements, not exactly hate speech, now is it? (Okay, maybe it feels that way if you're Muslim.) So bring it on, Kenngo1969. Show us the evidence! --Erik
Kenngo1969 Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) Erik: OK. I'll be happy to provide evidence for my position, provided you can convince me that your request is made in good faith. My default position is not normally to doubt someone's motives, and doing so makes me uncomfortable and somewhat sad because it is not necessarily consistent with the Christian ethic (although the Savior did tell the Apostles that they should be as wise as serpents, yet as harmless as doves). However, I do have a couple of reasons for suspecting your motives: (1) whatever our religious differences, I should think that, as a person of faith yourself, you should be more sympathetic to my position than you seem to be; and (2) our history of prior dealings makes me somewhat suspicious. Perhaps this is merely a matter of my perception than it is a reflection of actual fact, but your tone (The demand "Show us the evidence!" apparently delivered in the Cyber-equivalent of a stage voice along with the Cyber-equivalent of theatrical flourishes) makes me believe you are more interested in watching me chase my tail than you are in any substantive response I might offer. My apologies for suspecting your motives if such suspicion is not warranted. Edited July 23, 2017 by Kenngo1969 3
Five Solas Posted July 24, 2017 Posted July 24, 2017 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Erik: OK. I'll be happy to provide evidence for my position, provided you can convince me that your request is made in good faith. My default position is not normally to doubt someone's motives, and doing so makes me uncomfortable and somewhat sad because it is not necessarily consistent with the Christian ethic (although the Savior did tell the Apostles that they should be as wise as serpents, yet as harmless as doves). However, I do have a couple of reasons for suspecting your motives: (1) whatever our religious differences, I should think that, as a person of faith yourself, you should be more sympathetic to my position than you seem to be; and (2) our history of prior dealings makes me somewhat suspicious. Perhaps this is merely a matter of my perception than it is a reflection of actual fact, but your tone (The demand "Show us the evidence!" apparently delivered in the Cyber-equivalent of a stage voice along with the Cyber-equivalent of theatrical flourishes) makes me believe you are more interested in watching me chase my tail than you are in any substantive response I might offer. My apologies for suspecting your motives if such suspicion is not warranted. You're being awfully coy, Kenngo. You really don't need to delve into my motivation. And anyhow, I'm pretty transparent (especially by the standards of this forum). If you've got evidence behind your argument--bring it. If not, concede and move on. There's no use in you dragging this out. --Erik _______________________________ Who can know The thoughts of Mary Jane Why she flies Or goes out in the rain Where she's been And who she's seen In her journey to the stars. --Nick Drake, 1969
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