hagoth7 Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Probably what matters more than the specific forms used is consistency. Listening. Why?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, hagoth7 said: Listening. Why? I"d say because it preserves a milieu of order and organization within the Savior's church.
hagoth7 Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: I"d say because it preserves a milieu of order and organization within the Savior's church. Understood. Is a one-sized-fits-all approach still the best order...for our day? (I'm not saying the answer is no. It's an honest/open question.) Edited July 17, 2017 by hagoth7
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, hagoth7 said: Understood. Is a one-sized-fits-all approach still the best order...for our day? (I'm not saying the answer is no. It's an honest/open question.) I wouldnt characterize it that way, but I do trust that the Church leaders receive divine inspiration in directing the Church. Beyond that, it seems to me that a central administrative structure under the leadership of apostles and prophets fits the pattern of Christ's church in the New Testament and suggests to me that it is a divine pattern. Edited July 17, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
hagoth7 Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: I wouldnt characterize it that way, but I do trust that the Church leaders receive divine inspiration in directing the Church. Agreed. My brother gained the near-instant respect of teachers and students by dropping the pretense of titles. A welcome/refreshing shock for them. (And he owned and apologized for the occasional unintentioal mistake made.) Opened their hearts/minds to *wanting* to be taught by him. And despite being the newb teacher at that facilitiy, was nonetheless selected as teacher of the year there. Not that the award matters. But that how that generation responds to being treated as equals DOES matter. It's a new rising generation. We're losing them too rapidly. What then? With such at stake, does a minor shift like that, a simple tweak, not merit consideration? Giving such the *choice* of dropping titles.... Along the lines of...call no man your father but....and the admonishment to not let themselves be called rabbi. 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Beyond that, it seems to me that a central administrative structure under the leadership of apostles and prophets fits the pattern of Christ's church in the New Testament and suggests to me that it is a divine pattern. It *is* a divine pattern. 1. Joseph fielded worthwhile questions from the church, and took them to prayer, from which much of the earliest D&C sections derive. (WoW, for example.) 2. The new restoration films at the Visitor's Center...depict that repeating pattern many times over, in an awesome way. What in this discussion differs from that pattern? Edited July 17, 2017 by hagoth7
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, hagoth7 said: Agreed. My brother gained the near-instant respect of teachers and students by dropping the pretense of titles. A welcome/refreshing shock for them. (And he owned and apologized for the occasional unintentioal mistake made.) Opened their hearts/minds to *wanting* to be taught by him. And despite being the newb teacher at that facilitiy, was nonetheless selected as teacher of the year there. Not that the award matters. But that how that generation responds to being treated as equals DOES matter. It's a new rising generation. We're losing them too rapidly. What then? With such at stake, does a minor shift like that, a simple tweak, not merit consideration? Giving such the *choice* of dropping titles.... Along the lines of...call no man your father but....and the admonishment to not let themselves be called rabbi. It *is* a divine pattern. 1. Joseph fielded worthwhile questions from the church, and took them to prayer, from which much of the earliest D&C sections derive. (WoW, for example.) 2. The new restoration films at the Visitor's Center...depict that repeating pattern many times over, in an awesome way. What in this discussion differs from that pattern? Not sure I understand your question, but I'm saying that standard and consistent titles and forms of address fit within the overall scheme of a central and uniform administrative structure. At least that's how it seems to me.
hagoth7 Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Not sure I understand your question... My questions are, 1) if we really believe in a day when children will lead...does the continued insistence on "Brother" this and "Sister' that, titles of deference used only when addressing *adults* and adult *leaders*...does such a framework of outward distinctions...in their developing sense of self....serve as a bridge, or as a barrier to the hoped-for outcome of children feeling comfortable...while young...to step forward when their time to lead arrives? 2) Given how responsive intelligent/caring youth become when distance-creating facade/titles are dropped - when we present/deem ourselves merely their equals...if that...if their improved confidence and participation *is* the otucome of such a simple step, and if youth leaving in droves is part of the problem we face....what then? With such things at stake for the rising generation, for how much longer will titles remain relevant/useful? How important are titles really, given everything at stake? In our culture, when do titles of distinction be deemed unneeded ballast? 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: ...standard...consistent...uniform...structure. At least that's how it seems to me. Yes, I know your temparment well. Precisely the kind that function exremely well as traditional administrators and managers..because of the inate preference for structured order. What if a better order for coming days, when nations will crumble, is less about structural order and more about order of priorites? As in, putting needs of children and women first? If we were to flip things on their head (or more accurately rightside up) and, in the seemingly small/uninportant matter of titles, put concern for the rising generation first in order of importance,** won't them seeing us put their needs for connection before our preference for structure/distinction resolve a number of related concerns in short order? (consider the reaction among students when a teacher simply drops titles.) As to their foretold leadership in a brighter day...as their innocence/insight rrises to the occasion...might not the dropping of adult titles help them better envision the day they'll help take the helm, as children, precisely when we need them most to rescue us...and one another? Not saying the facade of titles needs to drop today. But if not today, when? **(says the chief hyppocrite in that area...argh), Edited July 17, 2017 by hagoth7
Scott Lloyd Posted July 17, 2017 Posted July 17, 2017 53 minutes ago, hagoth7 said: My questions are, 1) if we really believe in a day when children will lead...does the continued insistence on "Brother" this and "Sister' that, titles of deference used only when addressing *adults* and adult *leaders*...does such a framework of outward distinctions...in their developing sense of self....serve as a bridge, or as a barrier to the hoped-for outcome of children feeling comfortable...while young...to step forward when their time to lead arrives? 2) Given how responsive intelligent/caring youth become when distance-creating facade/titles are dropped - when we present/deem ourselves merely their equals...if that...if their improved confidence and participation *is* the otucome of such a simple step, and if youth leaving in droves is part of the problem we face....what then? With such things at stake for the rising generation, for how much longer will titles remain relevant/useful? How important are titles really, given everything at stake? In our culture, when do titles of distinction be deemed unneeded ballast? Yes, I know your temparment well. Precisely the kind that function exremely well as traditional administrators and managers..because of the inate preference for structured order. What if a better order for coming days, when nations will crumble, is less about structural order and more about order of priorites? As in, putting needs of children and women first? If we were to flip things on their head (or more accurately rightside up) and, in the seemingly small/uninportant matter of titles, put concern for the rising generation first in order of importance,** won't them seeing us put their needs for connection before our preference for structure/distinction resolve a number of related concerns in short order? (consider the reaction among students when a teacher simply drops titles.) As to their foretold leadership in a brighter day...as their innocence/insight rrises to the occasion...might not the dropping of adult titles help them better envision the day they'll help take the helm, as children, precisely when we need them most to rescue us...and one another? Not saying the facade of titles needs to drop today. But if not today, when? **(says the chief hyppocrite in that area...argh), Noted. I lack the time and interest to carry this on.
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