stemelbow Posted June 2, 2017 Author Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, pogi said: I agree with this to a certain extent. However, in order to trust God, we have to accept some unassailable truths such as 1) God is good. 2) God loves us 3) God cannot lie to us or tell us untruths. Otherwise, what is the point of obeying a God that is not good, does not love us, and who leads us into darkness? I agree with this to a certain extent. of course the whole notion that God cannot lie to us get's a little tricky. How would we know? Maybe just as there is reason for us to sometimes lie (as in there might be ethical reasons for us to lie--if you were harboring a Jewish person and Nazis asked you if you had them hidden isn't it a good thing to lie?) it may be so for God. We're comparatively fools to Him. Just as He did so for Elder Holland and his son when they prayed which road to take as the road forked (can't help it I'm trying to get him some moneys so Link his booklet instead of the free version of the story) maybe He has other designs and gives us little white lies for His own reasons. Anywho...Was God telling the truth when he inspired Elder Holland and his son to head down the wrong road so they would feel better about ending up on the right road? Quote Because I would lose all faith in Him if he did...even if He does indeed exist. I thought you don't believe that? You'd lose all faith in God if you and your son came upon a fork in the road, you two prayed and felt good about going down the wrong road? How do you have faith in him knowing Elder Holland's story?* *not trying to make this about Elder Holland and his son's story of going down the wrong road, but it works as a decent example. Edited June 2, 2017 by stemelbow
pogi Posted June 2, 2017 Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: I agree with this to a certain extent. of course the whole notion that God cannot lie to us get's a little tricky. How would we know? I have no evidence that God has ever lied to me. I have no reason to believe that he ever would. If God ever lied to me, I could not trust him enough to sacrifice my will for his - I would absolutely lose faith in him. We obey him because he is good and does not lie. There is abundant scriptural evidence for this: Thou art a God of truth and cannot lie - Ether 3:12. My Spirit is truth - D&C 88:66. The glory of God is intelligence, or light and truth - D&C 93:36. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began - Titus 1:2 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. - John 17:17 NKJ 17 God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us - Hebrews 6:18 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: ...it may be so for God. God's ways are not our ways. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" - Numbers 23:19 To remove the foundation of these scriptures from me, would be to remove my ability to trust God. 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: Was God telling the truth when he inspired Elder Holland and his son to head down the wrong road so they would feel better about ending up on the right road? I am fairly certain that if you asked Elder Holland, he would not say that God lied to him. He showed him the right way by showing him what the wrong way was. Elder Holland found this to be a gracious mercy. For Elder Holland, this was the best answer he could have received. It impressed him so much that he spoke on it in conference. Let's be clear here, "the wrong road" in this story is not a metaphor for "evil". In fact, this was the right road to go down in terms of giving Elder Holland unquestioning assurance and comfort in knowing the right way home. 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: You'd lose all faith in God if you and your son came upon a fork in the road, you two prayed and felt good about going down the wrong road? How do you have faith in him knowing Elder Holland's story?* No, I would not lose faith over that. I would only lose faith if God lied to me. I think it best to let Elder Holland speak for his own experience with God. Edited June 2, 2017 by pogi
stemelbow Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 On 6/2/2017 at 3:25 PM, pogi said: I have no evidence that God has ever lied to me. I have no reason to believe that he ever would. If God ever lied to me, I could not trust him enough to sacrifice my will for his - I would absolutely lose faith in him. We obey him because he is good and does not lie. There is abundant scriptural evidence for this: Thou art a God of truth and cannot lie - Ether 3:12. My Spirit is truth - D&C 88:66. The glory of God is intelligence, or light and truth - D&C 93:36. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began - Titus 1:2 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. - John 17:17 NKJ 17 God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us - Hebrews 6:18 God's ways are not our ways. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" - Numbers 23:19 To remove the foundation of these scriptures from me, would be to remove my ability to trust God. Gotcha. On 6/2/2017 at 3:25 PM, pogi said: I am fairly certain that if you asked Elder Holland, he would not say that God lied to him. He showed him the right way by showing him what the wrong way was. Elder Holland found this to be a gracious mercy. For Elder Holland, this was the best answer he could have received. It impressed him so much that he spoke on it in conference. no doubt, with logic like that there it is no wonder you are adamant that God would not be able to offer two different commands or instructions at different times or to different people. It makes no sense to read this story with "a God didn't mislead them to help them feel better, He plainly had them go the right way because they had to turn around and go back to the right road; therefore God said the right way all along and they went down the only path that would lead them home...." or whatever. So if God told them to go down the correct path from the beginning you would then consider that He lied to them? I ask because a story I shared here before had me faced with a similar choice. I prayed and God sent me down the right path. While traveling down that path I second guessed and didn't know it was the right path, until finally I found my friends. This Holland story is much easier to swallow when you realize that this whole method of asking God for things and we going on impressions to base His answer on is not a foolproof thing. We fool ourselves and that's a big part of the challenge of our personal interactions with God. In my mind, God did not inspire them to go down the wrong path necessarily. God let it be because they were intent on it being the right path, in their minds. I don't think God quite works in the way you or this Holland story suggests. On 6/2/2017 at 3:25 PM, pogi said: Let's be clear here, "the wrong road" in this story is not a metaphor for "evil". In fact, this was the right road to go down in terms of giving Elder Holland unquestioning assurance and comfort in knowing the right way home. Whether it's a metaphor for evil or not the story itself was meant to be a metaphor for our lives. And what they want it to mean doesn't really work, sadly. They should have used the story to help us understand that our dealings with God aren't perfect and/or at times he'll lead us down unpredictable and wrong paths because to HIm they aren't necessarily wrong. On 6/2/2017 at 3:25 PM, pogi said: No, I would not lose faith over that. I would only lose faith if God lied to me. I think it best to let Elder Holland speak for his own experience with God. Of course you do.
pogi Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: Gotcha. Is that your way of acknowledging my point? I am not here for "gotcha" moments and I don't know how you got that impression of me. 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: So if God told them to go down the correct path from the beginning you would then consider that He lied to them? No, I don't think you understand my point. If the "wrong road" would have been a major, several hour detour, God wouldn't have sent him down that road. But because it was a very short road, Elder Holland felt impressed that it was a graceful act to send him down that short detour to give him more confidence and assurance of the right way. 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: In my mind, God did not inspire them to go down the wrong path necessarily. God let it be because they were intent on it being the right path, in their minds. I don't think God quite works in the way you or this Holland story suggests. Yes, in your mind. But your mind has no clue what Elder Holland experienced, and it seems rather closed minded to suggest that "God doesn't work that way". I think you would be upset if I questioned and doubted a non-believers personal experience with God (and I wouldn't do that), I think it distasteful to do the same for believers. 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: Of course you do. What is that supposed to mean? Edited June 5, 2017 by pogi 1
stemelbow Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 1 hour ago, pogi said: Is that your way of acknowledging my point? I am not here for "gotcha" moments and I don't know how you got that impression of me. That's my lame way of acknowledging your point. Sorry for the flippant way of doing so. 1 hour ago, pogi said: No, I don't think you understand my point. If the "wrong road" would have been a major, several hour detour, God wouldn't have sent him down that road. We don't know God's ways, do we? Could it not be that God has lead someone down a path that was a several hour detour, much like he did to Elder Holland and son? Why limit God in such a way? 1 hour ago, pogi said: But because it was a very short road, Elder Holland felt impressed that it was a graceful act to send him down that short detour to give him more confidence and assurance of the right way. Well if Elder Holland and son trusted God as per their prayer why would they ever have lacked confidence and assurance? Or better said, maybe they both had reason to doubt God? It seems like the foolproof explanation I offered about the means God offers us works best in that case. 1 hour ago, pogi said: Yes, in your mind. But your mind has no clue what Elder Holland experienced, and it seems rather closed minded to suggest that "God doesn't work that way". I think you would be upset if I questioned and doubted a non-believers personal experience with God (and I wouldn't do that), I think it distasteful to do the same for believers. Well far be it from me from doubting their experience. I'd rather just doubt their conclusions based on it, and add that I think God doesn't work in explicit ways all too often. And this means of personal revelation to get us around, doesn't seem foolproof. and we're all fools when compared to God. 1 hour ago, pogi said: What is that supposed to mean? Just what it says. I'm not sure why it feels you are getting upset with me. But I meant nothing more than what I said. Of course you think it best to let Elder Holland speak for his own experience with God
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