pogi Posted May 24, 2017 Author Posted May 24, 2017 52 minutes ago, stemelbow said: And what can we talk about? Well, it's often nothing more than repeating the platitudes told us. Go outside of that and you end up being condemned or shunned, or many other things. Talk about anything relating to the subject. You don't have to repeat the platitudes, you can ask questions and explore within the subject as you wish. If you think that removing correlation will remove condemnation and shunning for teaching contrary to popular belief, you are sorely mistaken. From reading about church meetings pre-correlation, there were all sorts of nasty public shammings, beyond anything we come close to seeing today. It is human nature to resist change and to find obscure and foreign ideas threatening. People commonly resist that kind of thing. Correlation is not responsible for the judgmental culture of the church, human nature is responsible for that. You will not be disfellowshiped or excommunicated for exploring ideas in church which are related to the topic, so long as you are not teaching such things as doctrine. 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I know stagnation works for many. I don't know what you mean. There is almost unlimited potential for spiritual growth and enlightenment within the correlated materials. The problem is that we often only think and talk about these things at church and neglect to actually apply the principles of spiritual self-reliance in our day to day lives. We often forget to search for God in our search for "truth". We neglect the most sacred and holy order of spirituality via prayer and personal scripture study and instead delve into the "deep" subject materials that provide absolutely zero spiritual sustenance. 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: uh....that already happens. Openness, in my experience, tends to alleviate that. But surely it'll remain to some extent. If you compare the contention, confusion, division, and hurt feelings on these open forums to the relative peace and harmony of church meetings, I think you will see that you are mistaken.
pogi Posted May 24, 2017 Author Posted May 24, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Actually, all priesthood holders of the Church receive their priesthood through Joseph Smith, so any who receive this priesthood can receive this gift through him. Merely being ordained to an office, and given authority, does not give one the gift of revelation. Authority to speak in the name of the Lord, and receiving this gift of revelation are two different things. As an example that revelation is not limited to the President of the Church, I will cite Rev 11 which informs us that two will prophesy - not one. The Lord will give the gift of revelation to whom He will. I respectfully submit that the chain of revelation taught is simply not scriptural. I'm not saying it is wrong, but the Lord is not limited by it. Right, I am not arguing that only the President can receive revelation. We all can - not just priesthood holders either. However, our revelations are restricted to the jurisdiction over which we preside. I cannot receive a revelation for you, for example, but I can for my family. The Elders quorum president can receive revelation for his quorum, but he doesn't hold the keys to receive revelation for the high priests, etc. etc. all the way up the ladder to the president who holds all the keys over the jurisdiction of the entire church. While these passages do not specifically state the the "President" is the only one who can receive revelation for the church, both sections of the D&C are explicit that there will only be one person who can receive revelation for the church as a whole. Who could possibly be given authority to dictate revelation and commandment to the entire church (which includes the President), but the President? Oliver Cowdery once "commanded" Joseph to change the wording of a revelation, Joseph responded "by what authority do you command me?" Unless we have received keys over a specific jurisdiction, we have no authority to receive revelation for that jurisdiction. This is clearly how Joseph interpreted those D&C passages. He said: “It is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 197–98). Edited May 24, 2017 by pogi
stemelbow Posted May 24, 2017 Posted May 24, 2017 40 minutes ago, pogi said: Talk about anything relating to the subject. You don't have to repeat the platitudes, you can ask questions and explore within the subject as you wish. If you think that removing correlation will remove condemnation and shunning for teaching contrary to popular belief, you are sorely mistaken. From reading about church meetings pre-correlation, there were all sorts of nasty public shammings, beyond anything we come close to seeing today. It is human nature to resist change and to find obscure and foreign ideas threatening. People commonly resist that kind of thing. Correlation is not responsible for the judgmental culture of the church, human nature is responsible for that. You will not be disfellowshiped or excommunicated for exploring ideas in church which are related to the topic, so long as you are not teaching such things as doctrine. yeah...i'm not sure you understand what I've already done and have been through. 40 minutes ago, pogi said: I don't know what you mean. There is almost unlimited potential for spiritual growth and enlightenment within the correlated materials. The problem is that we often only think and talk about these things at church and neglect to actually apply the principles of spiritual self-reliance in our day to day lives. We often forget to search for God in our search for "truth". We neglect the most sacred and holy order of spirituality via prayer and personal scripture study and instead delve into the "deep" subject materials that provide absolutely zero spiritual sustenance. I'm not sure what you're talking about. I don't see the dichotomy you do--prayer vs deep subjects that lack spiritual sustenance. 40 minutes ago, pogi said: If you compare the contention, confusion, division, and hurt feelings on these open forums to the relative peace and harmony of church meetings, I think you will see that you are mistaken. It's almost the opposite in my view.
pogi Posted May 24, 2017 Author Posted May 24, 2017 (edited) 38 minutes ago, stemelbow said: yeah...i'm not sure you understand what I've already done and have been through. I probably don't. 38 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I'm not sure what you're talking about. I don't see the dichotomy you do--prayer vs deep subjects that lack spiritual sustenance. What I mean is that 99% of spiritual self-reliance and potential for growth lies in the primary answers like prayer, scripture study, service, sacrifice, humility, charity, ordinances, repentance/atonement and forgiveness. I have frequently heard people complain that we only get milk at church. What church really gives us are the keys to the mysteries of heaven. They are given to us in our lap, but some people refuse to utilize them and instead want to be force fed by the opinions of others, and complain when other people are not feeding them enough. People often want more "meat" at church - the "deep doctrines" of the gospel. The reason they are "deep doctrines" is because they are poorly understood. I can be more profoundly edified in light and spiritually transformed through private prayer (primary answers) than any opinionated and heated discussion about the unknown doctrines which do not impact my immediate spiritual growth/life. While interesting topics, they are rarely applicable in developing my relationship with God. Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. That is the meat of it all! That is the most profound and deep fountain of spiritual life and sustenance that exists. I have found through meditation that simplifying almost always leads to greater spiritual depths. We often become too distracted from the simple truths in our quest for more. Most of us have no clue what depths the primary answers provide. We only dip our toes and then complain that we want something bigger and better, without fully comprehending what we have. Slow down and simplify. In that respect, I view correlation and consolidation much like meditation. 38 minutes ago, stemelbow said: It's almost the opposite in my view. That is interesting how different our experiences can be. Edited May 24, 2017 by pogi
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