Robert F. Smith Posted July 28, 2016 Posted July 28, 2016 3 hours ago, snowflake said: ................................................................................ When I read the BOM it just feels like everything is out of order, we have the name of Jesus, baptism, the gospel and crucifixion all through the BOM before the arrival of Jesus. At the same time we see the Nephites keeping the Law of Moses....and the gospel at the same time? To me, the more I read the BOM and compare it to the Bible, it just seems like it was written way after the fact and is uninspired. In another post, snowflake, you mention the OT "hung on a tree" concept (Gen 40:19, Deut 21:22, Josh 8:29), but which is also a NT phrase referring to Jesus' crucifixion (Acts 5:30, 10:39). There you had no problem with it. Here you mention it as "out of order," "after the fact," and "uninspired." Which is it? 2
snowflake Posted July 29, 2016 Author Posted July 29, 2016 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I tried making the point already, snowflake, but maybe just not strongly enough to register with you: The name "Jesus" appears regularly throughout the OT. You say that it doesn't because you only read the KJV and can't find the name of Jesus Christ in that English translation of the OT -- but only because you don't read Hebrew. Therefore, based on ignorance of the sources, you judge that Joseph must have made up the Book of Mormon story. This is a common but very flawed approach to evaluating the Book of Mormon. As to other terms or concepts commonly found in the NT (baptism, the gospel, being saved by faith in Jesus, etc.), all are to be found in the OT. 1. Baptism, for example, is derived from the Greek word baptein, baptidzen "baptize, dip, immerse," which is used in the Septuagint translation of Hebrew ṭabal, ṭebila (and some other terms) in the OT. This was also a very common practice among the Essenes (Qumran). What should tip you off is that no one in the NT ever questions why John the Baptizer should be baptizing people, but only whether he is the forthcoming Messiah. The religious authorities from Jerusalem clearly do not question the practice of baptism (even though modern Jews speak now only of immersion in a mikveh). In his 1922 Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon, Jewish-Mormon Hirsch Miller used several Hebrew terms to translate "baptize" in the Book of Mormon: bamayim yîṭābal wîṭahēr, ṭîhēr, ṭāhar, ṭahărâ, ṭahărat hāʼēš, lĕṭahēr, mĕṭahēr, all words well-known in the OT. 2. Gospel likewise comes from the OT, even though the KJV translation does not use that English word. The “good tidings” in Isaiah 52:7 (měbassēr tôb) is identical to the New Testament use of “Gospel” (εὐαγγέλιον) as “good news” (Mark 1:1), and the Book of Mormon even contains a midrash on Isa 52:7 in Mosiah 15:15-18, wherein “good tidings” = NT “Gospel.” Indeed, Robert Fisher says the “central core” of the message of Deutero-Isaiah “is the proclamation of the ultimate good news [Gospel] of exiled Israel’s imminent deliverance and the inauguration of the eschatological reign of God.” The herald of good tidings in Isaiah 40:9, for example (cf. 41:27, 52:7), is called in Hebrew mebaśśer(et), which is the piel participle form of BŚR, the only form in which this root occurs in 2nd Isaiah. The Latin Vulgate and Jerome translated it into evangelizas, while the Targum for 40:9 has Aramaic (d)bsryn “good tidings, gospel.” The prophet Muhammad, in the Qur’an, refers to himself as a “bringer of good tidings” (Arabic baširun, mubašširun), which is identical to New Testament evangelist. The mebaśśer or herald receives his call in the Divine Council and is the means whereby YHWH delivers the good news and inaugurates the new age – the herald brings the good news of YHWH’s coming. He is both bearer of the message of salvation, and the bringer of salvation (cf. Romans 10:15, Acts 11:22, 13:32, 2 Samuel 4:4). Robert W. Fisher, “The Herald of Good News in Second Isaiah,” in Jared J. Jackson & Martin Kessler, eds., Rhetorical Criticism: Essays in Honor of James Muilenburg, Pittsburgh Theological Monograph Series 1 (Pittsburgh: Pickwick, 1974), 117; Allan A. MacRae, The Gospel of Isaiah (Chicago: Moody Press, 1977/ reprint Interdisciplinary Biblical Research, 1992); Hugh Nibley, “Prophets and Glad Tidings,” chapter 30 in Nibley, The World and the Prophets, 3rd ed., CWHN 3 (FARMS/Deseret, 1987), 259-267. In addition, the very term “New Testament” comes from the “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31:31-32. Jeremiah is also a source for being circumcized of heart (Jer 4:4, Lev 26:41, Deut 10:16, 30:6), which is often falsely seen as an exclusively NT concept (Romans 2:29). 3. Faith in the Lord is a common OT and NT concept (Deut 32:20, Hab 2:4), heavily emphasized by Hebrews 11:1-39, and buttressed by the common belief that Jesus is Lord Yahweh. Non-Mormon scholar Jo Ann Hackett has even suggested that Book of Mormon name Ammonihah means "YHWH is my faithfulness." Hackett & Welch, “Possible Linguistic Roots of Book of Mormon Names,” FARMS Preliminary Report CAR-81. Provo: FARMS, 1982. There are literally dozens of such crucial parallels between the OT and NT which escape notice based on the use by separate KJV translation committees of different religious terminology. Generations of naive readers have been tragically misled. I'm sure that my inability to read Greek or Hebrew puts me at a distinct disadvantage when discussing this issue Robert. You clearly have a firm grasp in these languages. As I read through the OT yes it is clear that Jesus is in every book, the OT points to the coming Savior. I agree wit you that there are dozens of parallels between the OT and the NT (probably hundreds). I read the KJV because I was raised on it and the NIV (a little easier to read) and have always somewhat agreed with the LDS thought that something is probably lost in the translation process itself simply because it is being translated but that is what we have for us English readers. When I read my study bible I am constantly amazed at the parallels between the OT and the NT that a good study bible can help enlighten. Your comment of my ignorance of the BOM sources in your first paragraph, could you elaborate on that? The sources we know Joseph had were a Bible, Plates (for a while) and a rock in a hat. What else were his sources?
snowflake Posted July 29, 2016 Author Posted July 29, 2016 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: In another post, snowflake, you mention the OT "hung on a tree" concept (Gen 40:19, Deut 21:22, Josh 8:29), but which is also a NT phrase referring to Jesus' crucifixion (Acts 5:30, 10:39). There you had no problem with it. Here you mention it as "out of order," "after the fact," and "uninspired." Which is it? Robert, we can prove the OT came before the NT with physical evidence. Do we have anything to prove the BOM happened, when it claims to have taken place, where it claims? (Manuscripts, cities, archeology, plates, engravings of plates, reformed egyptian?). So when I read about Christians in Alma, 70 years before Jesus arrived on the scene and before the NT says Christians existed, I scratch my head and say, this is out of order and does not make sense, Christians before Christ came to the earth, lets look at this claim a little more closely. Which is the reason for my skeptical analysis of the BOM. The title page of the BOM makes some very specific claims, I need to know if they are true or not. Joseph said the BOM was the most correct book on earth, that is a very big claim worth investigating thoroughly. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 29, 2016 Posted July 29, 2016 2 hours ago, snowflake said: ...................................................................... Your comment of my ignorance of the BOM sources in your first paragraph, could you elaborate on that? The sources we know Joseph had were a Bible, Plates (for a while) and a rock in a hat. What else were his sources? I had only in mind the Hebrew and Greek sources, which Joseph and his Brethren began studying in 1835. I wasn't thinking so much of his copy of the KJ Bible (which included the Apocrypha at that time). Of course a significant question arises as to just how much influence Joseph had on the wording, since the English translation of the Book of Mormon which we have in scribal manuscript is a form of English from about 2 centuries before Joseph (Early Modern English). Apparently, Joseph did no more than read phrases from his solid state device as his scribes took turns copying them. We don't know who did the actual translation of the Book of Mormon from Egyptian into English -- now how it might have been done.
strappinglad Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 For giggles, I wonder what was going on a couple of hundred years before the 1820s , that would require a translation into the English of that time? Was there a prior attempt to jump start a restoration ? Did chance and circumstance interfere with Plan A ? Maybe the angel put in charge of translating Egyptian into English was only fluent in Shakespearian English forms. The mind wanders into strange pathways, sorry. 1
Kevin Christensen Posted July 30, 2016 Posted July 30, 2016 18 hours ago, snowflake said: Robert, we can prove the OT came before the NT with physical evidence. Do we have anything to prove the BOM happened, when it claims to have taken place, where it claims? (Manuscripts, cities, archeology, plates, engravings of plates, reformed egyptian?). So when I read about Christians in Alma, 70 years before Jesus arrived on the scene and before the NT says Christians existed, I scratch my head and say, this is out of order and does not make sense, Christians before Christ came to the earth, lets look at this claim a little more closely. Which is the reason for my skeptical analysis of the BOM. The title page of the BOM makes some very specific claims, I need to know if they are true or not. Joseph said the BOM was the most correct book on earth, that is a very big claim worth investigating thoroughly. The way to test it is to compare what it has with what an eye witness at the time would have seen while standing in the right places at the right times with the right expectations. Lots of us have done that in various ways. And that is exactly why I provided a link to an essay by a Methodist Old Testament scholar on the Book of Mormon, particularly addressing the issue of Christianity in the Book of Mormon. Before she read the Book of Mormon, she used a wide range of materials, including Dead Sea Scrolls, Targums, Pseudopigrapha and several Old Testament versions, as well as New Testament and early Christian writings to make the case that Christianity is rooted in the First Temple tradition. Quote The life and work of Jesus were, and should be, interpreted in the light of something otherthan Jerusalem Judaism. This other had its roots in the conflicts of the sixth century BC when the traditions of the monarchy were divided as an inheritance amongst several heirs. It would have been lost but for the accidents of archaeological discovery and the evidence of pre-Christian texts preserved and transmitted only by Christian hands. Margaret Barker, The Older Testament: The Survival of Themes from the Ancient Royal Cult in Sectarian Judaism and Early Christianity (London: SPCK, 1987), 6–7, emphasis in original. She had not yet been in contact with Mormon scholars, and had not yet read the Book of Mormon. When she did, she reported "I was amazed at how much I recognized." That is, she saw that the Book of Mormon contained what she had reconstructed from sources unavailable to Joseph Smith, or anyone else, in 1829. I have written a great deal on that, as have many well trained LDS scholars, as has she. We have looked closely at the depiction of Lehi's Jerusalem, the journey through the Arabian desert, and the to the New World. We don't have information that will coerce a person against their will, but we do have a lot that invites belief in the form of eye witness details that fit on a wide range tests in a wide range of settings. See, for instance, the book, Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem, or In the Footsteps of Lehi, or Brant Gardner's The Book of Mormon as History. And much else. Best, Kevin Christensen Bethel Park, PA 4
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