canard78 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 D&C 17 promises the three witnesses a view of several significant items including "...the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face..."This links together about 4,000 years of history of the Interpreters. In around 2,000BC the Lord gives them to the brother of Jared (somewhere in the Old World before they set sail in their barges):21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.22 And behold, when ye shall come unto me, ye shall write them and shall seal them up, that no one can interpret them; for ye shall write them in a language that they cannot be read.23 And behold, these two stones will I give unto thee, and ye shall seal them up also with the things which ye shall write.24 For behold, the language which ye shall write I have confounded; wherefore I will cause in my own due time that these stones shall magnify to the eyes of men these things which ye shall write....27 And the Lord said unto him: Write these things and seal them up; and I will show them in mine own due time unto the children of men.28 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded him that he should seal up the two stones which he had received, and show them not, until the Lord should show them unto the children of men. Ether 3, emphasis added In the next chapter (Ether 4) Moroni then explains that the brother of Jared should "write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people." (Ether 4) Moroni then explains that they were made manifest after Christ showed himself to the people. He goes on to explain that he has sealed up the writings again, with the interpreters: 5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord. Ether 4 (emphasis added). The book of Ether describes the brother of Jared's record as: "never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared..." and says the interpreters were sealed with them. However in the books of Mosiah and Alma, the 24-plates that the people of Limhi discover (from the Jaredites) are described very differently: 21 And now, I will speak unto you concerning those twenty-four plates, that ye keep them, that the mysteries and the works of darkness, and their secret works, or the secret works of those people who have been destroyed, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, all their murders, and robbings, and their plunderings, and all their wickedness and abominations, may be made manifest unto this people; yea, and that ye preserve these interpreters. Alma 37 (emphasis added) These 24 plates are said to have been found during the people of Limhi's attempt to find Zarahemla. They are also the plates from which the book of Ether was translated:1:2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether....15:33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them. Ether 1, 15 These plates had originally been translated by Mosiah, using the Urim and Thummin (or a U&T).13 And now he translated them by the means of those two stones which were fastened into the two rims of a bow.14 Now these things were prepared from the beginning, and were handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages;15 And they have been kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he should discover to every creature who should possess the land the iniquities and abominations of his people;16 And whosoever has these things is called seer, after the manner of old times....20 And now, as I said unto you, that after king Mosiah had done these things, he took the plates of brass, and all the things which he had kept, and conferred them upon Alma, who was the son of Alma; yea, all the records, and also the interpreters, and conferred them upon him, and commanded him that he should keep and preserve them, and also keep a record of the people, handing them down from one generation to another, even as they had been handed down from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem. Mosiah 28 This description of the U&T Mosiah owned sounds similar to the ones that Joseph received (two stones in a bow). But can these be the same U&T as the brother of Jared's U&T? In Ether we learn he is to seal them up with the record he writes... the record that ultimately gets added to the 24 plates found by Limhi. So where do bro. of Jared's U&T (or two stones) go? Mosiah's U&T have been handed down since "Lehi left Jerusalem" (or maybe that's just the "record of the people"). His interpreters are already in Mosiah's possession when the 24 plates are found: 13: "Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer." Mosiah 37:13 The Mosiah2 spoken of above is the son of Benjamin. His Grandfather (Mosiah1) also apparently had this ability to translate ancient records. 20 And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons. Omni 1 Given the description in Mosiah 37, it seems Mosiah1 already had the Interpreters. Where did he get them from (given they were supposed to have been sealed up by the brother of Jared some 2000 years earlier. Eventually Moroni buried the brother of Jared's two stones in with the gold plates, sword of Laban etc in upstate New York. Fast-forward 1400 years and he appears to Joseph and tells him to go and find the plates, sword and U&T. Moroni told Joseph that: 35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book. JSH 1 Later in JSH, Oliver Cowdery says: "Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’" But these can't be the Nephite Interpreters, because the Nephite U&T had been taken away after the 116 pages had been lost, returned briefly and then taken away again. Instead he has to be referring to the seer stone Joseph found while digging a well that was previously used for treasure hunting. Lucy Mack Smith gives a detailed description of the interpreters:I knew not what he meant, but took the article in my hands and, examining it with no covering but a silk handkerchief, found that it consisted of two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows connected with each other in much the same way that old-fashioned spectacles are made. He took them again and left me, but did not tell me anything of the record.... That of which I spoke, which Joseph termed a key, was indeed nothing more nor less than a Urim and Thummim by which the angel manifested those things to him that were shown him in vision; by which also he could at any time ascertain the approach of danger, either to himself or the record, and for this cause he kept these things constantly about his person. (History of Joseph Smith, Revised and Enhanced, p. 139, 145) And: I have myself seen and handled the golden plates; they are about eight inches long, and six wide; some of them are sealed together and are not to be opened, and some of them are loose. They are all connected by a ring which passes through a hole at the end of each plate, and are covered with letters beautifully engraved. I have seen and felt also the Urim and Thummim. They resemble two large bright diamonds set in a bow like a pair of spectacles. My son puts these over his eyes when he reads unknown languages, and they enable him to interpret them in English. I have likewise carried in my hands the sacred breastplate. It is composed of pure gold, and is made to fit the breast very exactly. (in Henry Caswall, The City of the Mormons; or, Three Days at Nauvoo, in 1842, 2nd ed. revised and enlarged, (London: J. G. F. & J. Rivington, 1843), 26) - Source Questions: - Is there one set of Interpreters in the Book of Mormon or two? - Given Bro. of Jared is supposed to have sealed his Interpreters with his record (2000BC, written in the old world) where did they go next?- Where did Mosiah1 get his set of Interpreters? Is there any reference explaining their origin? If he had them before the 24-plates were found, where/when did he get them?- Given they match, in description, those received by Joseph Smith, are they one and the same as bro. of Jared's?- Ether 4 says: "...after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they (the records) should be made manifest..." Is there a record of this happening in 3rd Nephi?- The 24-plates are described in most cases as containing a terrible history of the Jaredites, but we also know they contain the experience of the brother of Jared which was supposed to have been sealed up until a special moment. Why were they described in possibly contradictory terms?- The U&T appears in the Old Testament as a religious item and has a possible use in divination or revelation. There is no evidence they were ever used to translate texts or even designed to be used as such. Why the discrepancy?- With a 4000 year history, doesn't it seem odd that Joseph only got to keep them for 12-18 months before having them taken away? With all that careful preservation of them by brother of Jared, Mosiah (1 and 2), several more generations through to Moroni, Joseph switches to his rock found in a well.
ERayR Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 D&C 17 promises the three witnesses a view of several significant items including "...the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face..."This links together about 4,000 years of history of the Interpreters. In around 2,000BC the Lord gives them to the brother of Jared (somewhere in the Old World before they set sail in their barges):Ether 3, emphasis added In the next chapter (Ether 4) Moroni then explains that the brother of Jared should "write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people." (Ether 4) Moroni then explains that they were made manifest after Christ showed himself to the people. He goes on to explain that he has sealed up the writings again, with the interpreters: Ether 4 (emphasis added). The book of Ether describes the brother of Jared's record as: "never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared..." and says the interpreters were sealed with them. However in the books of Mosiah and Alma, the 24-plates that the people of Limhi discover (from the Jaredites) are described very differently: Alma 37 (emphasis added) These 24 plates are said to have been found during the people of Limhi's attempt to find Zarahemla. They are also the plates from which the book of Ether was translated:Ether 1, 15 These plates had originally been translated by Mosiah, using the Urim and Thummin (or a U&T).Mosiah 28 This description of the U&T Mosiah owned sounds similar to the ones that Joseph received (two stones in a bow). But can these be the same U&T as the brother of Jared's U&T? In Ether we learn he is to seal them up with the record he writes... the record that ultimately gets added to the 24 plates found by Limhi. So where do bro. of Jared's U&T (or two stones) go? Mosiah's U&T have been handed down since "Lehi left Jerusalem" (or maybe that's just the "record of the people"). His interpreters are already in Mosiah's possession when the 24 plates are found: Mosiah 37:13 The Mosiah2 spoken of above is the son of Benjamin. His Grandfather (Mosiah1) also apparently had this ability to translate ancient records. Omni 1 Given the description in Mosiah 37, it seems Mosiah1 already had the Interpreters. Where did he get them from (given they were supposed to have been sealed up by the brother of Jared some 2000 years earlier. Eventually Moroni buried the brother of Jared's two stones in with the gold plates, sword of Laban etc in upstate New York. Fast-forward 1400 years and he appears to Joseph and tells him to go and find the plates, sword and U&T. Moroni told Joseph that: JSH 1 Later in JSH, Oliver Cowdery says: "Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’" But these can't be the Nephite Interpreters, because the Nephite U&T had been taken away after the 116 pages had been lost, returned briefly and then taken away again. Instead he has to be referring to the seer stone Joseph found while digging a well that was previously used for treasure hunting. Lucy Mack Smith gives a detailed description of the interpreters:(History of Joseph Smith, Revised and Enhanced, p. 139, 145) And: (in Henry Caswall, The City of the Mormons; or, Three Days at Nauvoo, in 1842, 2nd ed. revised and enlarged, (London: J. G. F. & J. Rivington, 1843), 26) - Source Questions: - Is there one set of Interpreters in the Book of Mormon or two? - Given Bro. of Jared is supposed to have sealed his Interpreters with his record (2000BC, written in the old world) where did they go next?- Where did Mosiah1 get his set of Interpreters? Is there any reference explaining their origin? If he had them before the 24-plates were found, where/when did he get them?- Given they match, in description, those received by Joseph Smith, are they one and the same as bro. of Jared's?- Ether 4 says: "...after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they (the records) should be made manifest..." Is there a record of this happening in 3rd Nephi?- The 24-plates are described in most cases as containing a terrible history of the Jaredites, but we also know they contain the experience of the brother of Jared which was supposed to have been sealed up until a special moment. Why were they described in possibly contradictory terms?- The U&T appears in the Old Testament as a religious item and has a possible use in divination or revelation. There is no evidence they were ever used to translate texts or even designed to be used as such. Why the discrepancy?- With a 4000 year history, doesn't it seem odd that Joseph only got to keep them for 12-18 months before having them taken away? With all that careful preservation of them by brother of Jared, Mosiah (1 and 2), several more generations through to Moroni, Joseph switches to his rock found in a well. You hear all kinds of rumors but I like the one that says the Church has them locked in the granite vaults. Pretty neat huh? 1
JLHPROF Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Questions: - The U&T appears in the Old Testament as a religious item and has a possible use in divination or revelation. There is no evidence they were ever used to translate texts or even designed to be used as such. Why the discrepancy? No discrepancy. Urim & Thummim ARE tools of revelation, seerstones if you prefer. There is no reason in the world that the revelation received cannot be a translation of an ancient record. We have got to get our modern definition of "interpret" out of our head. It is not the same as someone seeing the word "Merci" and writing "thank you". When it comes to scripture Joseph was told the words to write without ever knowing/understanding the foreign words that were written on the plates. We can say Joseph "translated" the plates all we want, but there was no language to language translation in evidence.The revelation told Joseph to write "I Nephi, having been born of goodly parents". He never new the words on the plates for born, goodly, or parents, therefore it was not translation as we knew it. He was not given to know or understand the original language. He was just told what the words said. It was a one-sided translation. - With a 4000 year history, doesn't it seem odd that Joseph only got to keep them for 12-18 months before having them taken away? With all that careful preservation of them by brother of Jared, Mosiah (1 and 2), several more generations through to Moroni, Joseph switches to his rock found in a well. It is amazing how little understanding of the principle of seerstones is found among those who question Joseph. They are scriptural, sometimes heavenly. Why shouldn't Joseph have used a seerstone to aid in translation? All men are entitltled to possess one, and all will receive one when they enter the Celestial Kingdom. This implied mockery of the seerstone principle shows a definite lack of understanding.
canard78 Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 Questions: - The U&T appears in the Old Testament as a religious item and has a possible use in divination or revelation. There is no evidence they were ever used to translate texts or even designed to be used as such. Why the discrepancy?No discrepancy. Urim & Thummim ARE tools of revelation, seerstones if you prefer. There is no reason in the world that the revelation received cannot be a translation of an ancient record. We have got to get our modern definition of "interpret" out of our head. It is not the same as someone seeing the word "Merci" and writing "thank you". When it comes to scripture Joseph was told the words to write without ever knowing/understanding the foreign words that were written on the plates. We can say Joseph "translated" the plates all we want, but there was no language to language translation in evidence.The revelation told Joseph to write "I Nephi, having been born of goodly parents". He never new the words on the plates for born, goodly, or parents, therefore it was not translation as we knew it. He was not given to know or understand the original language. He was just told what the words said. It was a one-sided translation.- With a 4000 year history, doesn't it seem odd that Joseph only got to keep them for 12-18 months before having them taken away? With all that careful preservation of them by brother of Jared, Mosiah (1 and 2), several more generations through to Moroni, Joseph switches to his rock found in a well.It is amazing how little understanding of the principle of seerstones is found among those who question Joseph. They are scriptural, sometimes heavenly. Why shouldn't Joseph have used a seerstone to aid in translation? All men are entitltled to possess one, and all will receive one when they enter the Celestial Kingdom. This implied mockery of the seerstone principle shows a definite lack of understanding.I've no problem with Joseph using seer stones. I'm just not sure "U&T" is the right name for them. Weren't they first called such by Oliver (or maybe WW Phelps?). If so, how come angel Moroni called them U&T, even though he and everyone else in the BoM never called them such. And which "U&T" did he get? Bro. of Jared's or Mosiah's? Or are they one and the same? If so, when did Mosiah get it?
Kaleb Webb Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Angel Moroni in Joseph Smith-History probably referred to them as U&T because that narrative was dictated by Joseph Smith in 1838, and I think Oliver had already been using the term for a while.
Uncle Dale Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) I've no problem with Joseph using seer stones. I'm just not sure "U&T" is the right name for them. Weren't they first called such by Oliver (or maybe WW Phelps?).... Phelps, if I remember my Graceland College history prof correctly. It is likely true that the Davidic era high priests had some sort oforacular devices tucked into their sacred breastplates -- that is,cloth chest-pieces, encrusted with semi-precious stones, andnever intended to deflect an enemy's javelin or arrow. Whether there was ever more than one set of these oddities,I suppose we shall never know. King Saul reportedly put histrust in their divination (which, I suppose, merely gave a "yes"or "no" answer to his eagerly posited questions). Did Joseph Smith, Jr. somehow come into temporary possessionof this Israelite device -- I sincerely doubt it. But proving my negativeconclusion is a task far beyond my limited energies in these latter days. Oh -- I was more than a little surprised to hear that Mike Quinnstill believes the Mormon explanation of the Israelite U&T (tohave been a couple of conjoined peepstones). An odd conceit. Merlin the Magician is said to have once set out, across theunknown sea, to a distant land of milk and honey, travelingin an under-sea boat, lit inside by a magical, luminous gem --a veritable "philospher's stone" of a ship's lantern. Whether or not this radiant stone also "guided" the magicianacross the sea, I haven't read -- but perhaps so. The story isre-told in Robert Southey's epic (pre-1830) "Madoc," in which asecond son of Britain's Isles also sailed across the preColumbianseas -- bringing Christianity to the benighted ancient Americas.If Prince Madoc also possessed a radiant stone and a magicalsubmarine (I almost said, submersible barge the length of a tree)I cannot recall it -- and further this deponent declines to testify. UD Edited January 5, 2015 by Uncle Dale
strappinglad Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Tradition also has Noah using bright stones on his voyage. A 450 ft long boat would be mighty dark most of the time and an open flame torch would have been a bad idea on a wooden ship covered in pitch.Why we think the Lord is restricted to one or two sets of U & T is amazing. Maybe He doesn't have Apple's manufacturing capabilities.Joseph made some serious errors in judgment and God took away the fancy i-phone and he was left a clunky first gen rotary phone. 1
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