Immorality

[thesometimesaint]

I am okay with theocracies but I like them better when God is actually in charge of them. Zion good, most of the rest are pretty awful.

 

I disagree with the "imposing religious beliefs" bit. You might as well just say that all legislation is a majority (usually) "imposing beliefs" on others. People try to rationalize that secular beliefs are based in reason but when you break it down to the most basic level it comes down to people liking or not liking stuff.

 

You have the absolute right to swing your arm. That right ends at my nose.

[thesometimesaint]

A little secret here- it is not, nor ever was, Satans plan to force Gods children into obedience to the saving laws and principles of the gospel. Satan lied about wanting to save anyone, still does lie telling people they can do as they please. Satan wanted to destroy the kingdom of God by causing all of mankind to fall and then not provide a redeemer thus making all slaves in his own kingdom.

Satan wants no such thing as forced obedience. When ever was there a time when men were forced to repent and be baptized? Never. Thats because that is not Satans plan of destroying our agency. Satan destroys our agency when we fall into temtation and become chained down, led into captivity. What do you think it means when it says that all those who hearken unto Satan are led captive to his will down to destruction? That is how he destroys our agency and the very reason he was kicked out of heaven. Satan seeks to destroy moral law and thus make it easier to destroy our agency and fall captive to his will. Moral law must be maintained in order to preserve agency.

 

Lucifer was deadly earnest in saving everyone. NO ONE would be able to sin. He wanted ALL the power and glory of God for himself.

[thesometimesaint]

CFR that this is Mormon doctrine.  If it is just your own opinion then fine.  I will just disregard it as another one of your own "theories".

 

And just to be clear, we are only talking about Satan's plan in the pre existence verses God's plan of free agency.  We are not talking about satan's actions since being thrust out of the heavens.

 

Everything posted here on this MB is just our opinions. Some are just better sourced than others.

[Danzo]

Really?  California passed a law to fund a bullet train from San Francisco to Los Angeles/  Who's morality was that based on?  It was legal to own slaves.  Who's morality was that based on? I could list hundreds of laws that have nothing to do with morality.  Some laws are just based on what people want to have done.  That is why corporations send lobbyists to congress.  It is not a moral crusade.

 

The law funding a bullet train from san Franscisco to Los Angeles came because someone thought it was the right or "moral" thing to do. 

[thesometimesaint]

The law funding a bullet train from san Franscisco to Los Angeles came because someone thought it was the right or "moral" thing to do. 

 

I'm willing to bet it had much more to do with if it would make money.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Really?  California passed a law to fund a bullet train from San Francisco to Los Angeles/  Who's morality was that based on?  It was legal to own slaves.  Who's morality was that based on? I could list hundreds of laws that have nothing to do with morality.  Some laws are just based on what people want to have done.  That is why corporations send lobbyists to congress.  It is not a moral crusade.

I am sorry but funding a bill to build a train is not a law. This is not apples to apples comparison.  Saying that we need to tax cigaretts because they are bad would be a more apt comparison.

 

Actually I take it back. Lets call it a law and never mind what I said about it. SOme one some were had a reason to do it because they thought it was better (hence moral) to do so because it would benefit alot of people.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm willing to bet it had much more to do with if it would make money.

I am not betting on that at all. I am wondering if one of the law makers is a relative to some one that would benefit finacially from this deal. After all crony capitalism is in right now.

[Rob Osborn]

Lucifer was deadly earnest in saving everyone. NO ONE would be able to sin. He wanted ALL the power and glory of God for himself.

This is a falsehood ingrained in our doctrine. We know Satan was a liar from the beginning? What was his lie? That he would save all that God gave him to save. He basically stated the role of being a Savior. He was thus kicked out for his lie and conspiacy to overthrow the kingdom.

[thesometimesaint]

I am not betting on that at all. I am wondering if one of the law makers is a relative to some one that would benefit finacially from this deal. After all crony capitalism is in right now.

 

I  don't say whom it would make money for.

 

Trains, even High Speed Trains, are an economical alternative in the medium range people hauling market. Cars and buses for short haul, and air planes for long range. My sister drive to the train depot(about a mile away) takes the train to about a mile away from her work, then a shuttle bus to her work site. Saves her serious money, and aggravation in her daily commute.

[thesometimesaint]

This is a falsehood ingrained in our doctrine. We know Satan was a liar from the beginning? What was his lie? That he would save all that God gave him to save. He basically stated the role of being a Savior. He was thus kicked out for his lie and conspiacy to overthrow the kingdom.

 

What I stated IS our doctrine.

[Rob Osborn]

What I stated IS our doctrine.

Im just stating what I believe is really true. Im not buying into Satans big lie. The scriptures are quite replete with the doctrine of Satans role from the beginning. He is a liar fist off. Second, he sought wickedness in heaven (sinful behavior). Third, he wants the natural and sinful man to be justified in his sins. Fourth, he deatroys agency by causing us to sin and become captive, in chains, to be acted upon.

[Danzo]

I'm willing to bet it had much more to do with if it would make money.

High speed trains do not make money.  If they did, there would be no need for state funding.

[thesometimesaint]

Pot meet kettle.

 

Lucifer(Son of the Morning). So no he wasn't a liar from his beginning. He chose to become Satan(The Accuser). Satan sought to destroy the Agency of Man. Forcing men to not sin. That is LDS Doctrine. He and his followers chose to rebel against God, and thus cast out. LDS Doctrine.

[Stone holm]

High speed trains do not make money.  If they did, there would be no need for state funding.

 

Highways don't make money either, if they did there would be no need for massive local, State, and Federal funding.  The question is could they end up saving money, the United States opted to go for the Interstate Highway System under Eisenhower in part for military reasons, Europe opted for high speed trains.

[thesometimesaint]

High speed trains do not make money.  If they did, there would be no need for state funding.

 

Actually they do. See France, Spain, Germany, Japan, China as examples. Seed money is what is needed in this country. Hell we still subsidize the oil companies to the tune of Billions of dollars per year. Though I doubt many would called it seed money.

[Stone holm]

Actually they do. See France, Spain, Germany, Japan, China as examples. Seed money is what is needed in this country. Hell we still subsidize the oil companies to the tune of Billions of dollars per year. Though I doubt many would called it seed money.

 

Some would consider the choice between subsidizing car and truck travel via highway construction as opposed to constructing high speed rail infrastructure as a moral decision.  Do you?

[thesometimesaint]

Some would consider the choice between subsidizing car and truck travel via highway construction as opposed to constructing high speed rail infrastructure as a moral decision.  Do you?

 

In a country as large as ours I think we need to strike a good balance between roads, rail lines, and air traffic. IE; Trips to the grocery store will better served by cars. While trains fill the niche of intercity travel, and air planes for cross country.

 

I don't know as it is a question of morals. Other than to not waste money. Sure I could spend my money to put my car in the belly of a large plane and fly along with it to New Hampshire. But I'm enough of a Protestant to not want to waste the money it would cost. I'd rather fly there then rent a car once I got there.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 Hell we still subsidize the oil companies to the tune of Billions of dollars per year.

A more false statement could not be made. Anyway we should not derail this thread.

 

the point of the earlier comments was that some one some were thought it was a good idea to create the high speed rail and write it into law. There was a moral basis for it.

[thesometimesaint]

A more false statement could not be made. Anyway we should not derail this thread.

 

the point of the earlier comments was that some one some were thought it was a good idea to create the high speed rail and write it into law. There was a moral basis for it.

 

CFR.

 

Whether it is a good idea or not is not a matter of morals. Whether you choose Vanilla ice cream or Chocolate ice cream it is a matter of choice not morals.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

CFR.

 

Whether it is a good idea or not is not a matter of morals. Whether you choose Vanilla ice cream or Chocolate ice cream it is a matter of choice not morals.

Cool, we are not talking about weather we are going to chose vanillia ice cream or choclate. We are talking about why people choose to make laws about things and that is because of moral reasons that stem from a belief system. And I will not derail this thread with a cfr that you think we are subsidizing oil. 

 

The reason you and your friend stoneholm cant admit this is because there is an underling political reason that prevents you from doing that. And that is the oft trotted out and misudnerstood "separation of church and state". That is really what this is about.

[Rob Osborn]

Pot meet kettle.

 

Lucifer(Son of the Morning). So no he wasn't a liar from his beginning. He chose to become Satan(The Accuser). Satan sought to destroy the Agency of Man. Forcing men to not sin. That is LDS Doctrine. He and his followers chose to rebel against God, and thus cast out. LDS Doctrine.

H ewas a liar "from the beginning" meaning before this world was created. He did choose to become Satan. He sought to destroy the agency of man and still continues that quest- that same quest to this very day. Forcing men to not sin is a doctrine we have made up and isn't a "true" doctrine. Think about this- in the council in heaven it was known that man would sin and would fall and thus a Savior would be needed to redeem man from sin. Satan "said" he would do this- redeem man from their lost and sinful state. So, if the plan is how you say then there would be no need to redeem man from a fall that never happens. That is where we discern the real truth. Go back and read Moses 4:1. It speaks the truth in first stating that Lucifer is a liar-

 

1 And I, the ^aLord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That ^bSatan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the ^cbeginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will ^dredeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely ^eI will do it; wherefore ^fgive me thine honor.

 

The key to understanding this verse is that the Lord tells Moses that he is the "same which was from the beginning" meaning that he is the same liar as Moses was first confronted with when Satan told Moses he was the Son of God and to worship him. he then goes on to stae what Satan said which in fact was a lie. Satan was already in rebellion when he made that statement. He had no intention of saving anyone when he said he would save all. That is why two verses later he called ther "father or all lies".

[Stone holm]

In a country as large as ours I think we need to strike a good balance between roads, rail lines, and air traffic. IE; Trips to the grocery store will better served by cars. While trains fill the niche of intercity travel, and air planes for cross country.

 

I don't know as it is a question of morals. Other than to not waste money. Sure I could spend my money to put my car in the belly of a large plane and fly along with it to New Hampshire. But I'm enough of a Protestant to not want to waste the money it would cost. I'd rather fly there then rent a car once I got there.

 

Yeah, I don't see it as a question necessarily of morals.  However, I think it illustrates how truly elusive our concepts of moral and immoral are, its not a black and white Kodak moment as much as many would like it to be.  I am concerned, however, that there seems to be a tendency to equate morality with sexual morality when it comes to religion -- and I just don't see that in the actual teachings of Christ while He was in mortality -- his teachings had more to do with condemning the Jewish establishment of the time for their indifference to the poor, oppressed, sick, and discriminated against.  While sexuality is a part of any morality system, it is a rather small part not the overwhelmingly dominant part.

[thesometimesaint]

Cool, we are not talking about weather we are going to chose vanillia ice cream or choclate. We are talking about why people choose to make laws about things and that is because of moral reasons that stem from a belief system. And I will not derail this thread with a cfr that you think we are subsidizing oil. 

 

The reason you and your friend stoneholm cant admit this is because there is an underling political reason that prevents you from doing that. And that is the oft trotted out and misudnerstood "separation of church and state". That is really what this is about.

 

There is no overriding secular principle that would include Blue Laws in our statutes. I'll not get into all the crap laws that have been enacted over the last couple of centuries in this country let alone all the crap laws that have been enacted world wide over the last 6 millennia.

 

We have separation of Church and State in this country. Could it be more absolute in my opinion? Absolutely. What is uncontested is that you wouldn't appreciate a law telling you what religion you had to believe to be a full citizen of the US.

[thesometimesaint]

Yeah, I don't see it as a question necessarily of morals.  However, I think it illustrates how truly elusive our concepts of moral and immoral are, its not a black and white Kodak moment as much as many would like it to be.  I am concerned, however, that there seems to be a tendency to equate morality with sexual morality when it comes to religion -- and I just don't see that in the actual teachings of Christ while He was in mortality -- his teachings had more to do with condemning the Jewish establishment of the time for their indifference to the poor, oppressed, sick, and discriminated against.  While sexuality is a part of any morality system, it is a rather small part not the overwhelmingly dominant part.

 

I think what Christ was saying is "Don't screw thy neighbor" figuratively or literally.

[Rob Osborn]

Yeah, I don't see it as a question necessarily of morals.  However, I think it illustrates how truly elusive our concepts of moral and immoral are, its not a black and white Kodak moment as much as many would like it to be.  I am concerned, however, that there seems to be a tendency to equate morality with sexual morality when it comes to religion -- and I just don't see that in the actual teachings of Christ while He was in mortality -- his teachings had more to do with condemning the Jewish establishment of the time for their indifference to the poor, oppressed, sick, and discriminated against.  While sexuality is a part of any morality system, it is a rather small part not the overwhelmingly dominant part.

And yet Christ himself stated that the unrepentant sexually immoral would go to hell. Christ taught us how we ought to be. He also taught us to not be immoral of which penalty is the second death.