Were There Elephants In The Middle East Around 2200 Bc?

[TruthSeeker2013]

I ask because I'm trying to determine if the appearance of the word "elephant" in the book of Ether could have been a misidentification of another animal by the Jaredites (yes, I understand that it could have been Joseph that's responsible for the misidentification, but for reasons not worth going through here, I think it has to be a BOM author misidentification). Of course, the Jaredites would have to have been familiar with what an elephant was in order to misidentify another animal as an elephant.

 

The church teaches that the tower babel incident happened around 2200BC. I believe most people think the Tower of Babel occurred somewhere in the middle ease (perhaps Iraq). So is anyone aware of evidence of elephants in the middle east around 2200BC?

[Ron Beron]

Sure there were.  The Syrian Elephant, now extinct, dated from 3 million years ago to 100 B.C.  There was also the North African elephant which was used by Hannibal in his attack on Rome.  Elephants were first domesticated by the Indus Valley people around 8500 B.C. and borrowed by the Persians and other Middle Eastern groups.

[cdowis]

"Elephant" probably means "wooly mammoth".

 

Do a search on "wooly mammoth mexico" in google.

[Ron Beron]

"Elephant" probably means "wooly mammoth".

 

Do a search on "wooly mammoth mexico" in google.

The Mammoth disappeared after the Ice Age.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Mammoth disappeared after the Ice Age.

Yes, he did, Ron, but when?

We do not in fact know when the last Columbian mammoth went extinct in the Americas, and it is a very difficult matter to establish with certainty.

 

We can, however, surmise that they did not go extinct before 2,000 BC.  This is the conclusion of a scientific report in the Sept 2008 issue of Current Biology, which was summarized as “DNA Shows That Last Woolly Mammoths Had North American Roots,” ScienceDaily, Sep 5, 2008, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904145058.htm .  “In a surprising reversal of conventional wisdom, a DNA-based study has revealed that the last of the woolly mammoths—which lived between 40,000 and 4,000 years ago—had roots that were exclusively North American,” i.e., as late as 2,000 B.C.

 

There is a more recent report: 

“Mammoths Hung On Longer? Late-Surviving Megafauna Exposed by Ancient DNA in Frozen Soil,” ScienceDaily, Dec 15, 2009, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091214151946.htm ,

“Extinct woolly mammoths and ancient American horses may have been grazing the North American steppe for several thousand years longer than previously thought,” i.e., perhaps as late as 5,600 B.C. in central Alaska, at Stevens Village, on the Yukon River, based upon sedaDNA (sedimentary DNA).  They “developed a statistical model to show that mammoth and horse populations would have dwindled to a few hundred individuals by 8,000 years ago,” i.e., by 6,000 B.C. in that region.  Details in James Haile, et al., “Ancient DNA reveals late survival of mammoth and horse in interior Alaska,” PNAS, Dec 17, 2009, online at http://www.pnas.org/content/106/52/22352.full ,

They conclude that “to confidently rule out the possibility that small numbers of mammoths persisted into the Holocene in northwestern North America, macrofossil surveys would need to be intensified significantly,” and that “sedaDNA evidence for mammoth and horse persisting into the Holocene in interior Alaska is incompatible with such rapid extinction and indicates that late-surviving mammoths in the New World were not confined to islands in the Bering Sea.”

Indeed, “the duration of human/megafaunal overlap was probably even greater than suggested by our sedaDNA results, raising questions about the mode and tempo of extinction.”

Edited September 8, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I ask because I'm trying to determine if the appearance of the word "elephant" in the book of Ether could have been a misidentification of another animal by the Jaredites (yes, I understand that it could have been Joseph that's responsible for the misidentification, but for reasons not worth going through here, I think it has to be a BOM author misidentification). Of course, the Jaredites would have to have been familiar with what an elephant was in order to misidentify another animal as an elephant.

 

The church teaches that the tower babel incident happened around 2200BC. I believe most people think the Tower of Babel occurred somewhere in the middle ease (perhaps Iraq). So is anyone aware of evidence of elephants in the middle east around 2200BC?

The LDS Church does not teach "that the tower of babel incident happened around 2200BC."  The disclaimers on "Chronology" on pp. 635-636 of the LDS "Bible Dictionary" (1979) ought to be instructive on that issue.  Indeed, the tower of "Babel" is not even mentioned in the Book of Mormon, the book of Ether referring instead to the Great Tower (Ether 1:33; cf. Omni 22, Hel 6:28).  "Babel" is an anachronism, a late gloss added to the Genesis text of the Hebrew Bible.

 

The likeliest date for the tower incident is ca. 3,100 B.C.

 

The Jaredites, who came from north Mesopotamia, certainly knew what an "elephant" was, as evidenced in Sumerian am-si, bi₂-lam, til-lu-ug = Akkadian pīru “elephant.”   

 

Cf. Arabic Ḫarṭûm “Elephant” = city of Khartoum (capital of Sudan) above the 6th cataract.  Could this be a source for Book of Mormon name Hearthom?

[Ron Beron]

 

Yes, he did, Ron, but when?

We do not in fact know when the last Columbian mammoth went extinct in the Americas, and it is a very difficult matter to establish with certainty.

 

We can, however, surmise that they did not go extinct before 2,000 BC.  This is the conclusion of a scientific report in the Sept 2008 issue of Current Biology, which was summarized as “DNA Shows That Last Woolly Mammoths Had North American Roots,” ScienceDaily, Sep 5, 2008, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904145058.htm .  “In a surprising reversal of conventional wisdom, a DNA-based study has revealed that the last of the woolly mammoths—which lived between 40,000 and 4,000 years ago—had roots that were exclusively North American,” i.e., as late as 2,000 B.C.

 

There is a more recent report: 

“Mammoths Hung On Longer? Late-Surviving Megafauna Exposed by Ancient DNA in Frozen Soil,” ScienceDaily, Dec 15, 2009, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091214151946.htm ,

“Extinct woolly mammoths and ancient American horses may have been grazing the North American steppe for several thousand years longer than previously thought,” i.e., perhaps as late as 5,600 B.C. in central Alaska, at Stevens Village, on the Yukon River, based upon sedaDNA (sedimentary DNA).  They “developed a statistical model to show that mammoth and horse populations would have dwindled to a few hundred individuals by 8,000 years ago,” i.e., by 6,000 B.C. in that region.  Details in James Haile, et al., “Ancient DNA reveals late survival of mammoth and horse in interior Alaska,” PNAS, Dec 17, 2009, online at http://www.pnas.org/content/106/52/22352.full ,

They conclude that “to confidently rule out the possibility that small numbers of mammoths persisted into the Holocene in northwestern North America, macrofossil surveys would need to be intensified significantly,” and that “sedaDNA evidence for mammoth and horse persisting into the Holocene in interior Alaska is incompatible with such rapid extinction and indicates that late-surviving mammoths in the New World were not confined to islands in the Bering Sea.”

Indeed, “the duration of human/megafaunal overlap was probably even greater than suggested by our sedaDNA results, raising questions about the mode and tempo of extinction.”

 

I agree that they probably lasted a lot longer, only to be killed off by hungry humans and/or disease.

[Robert F. Smith]

I agree that they probably lasted a lot longer, only to be killed off by hungry humans and/or disease.

By the way, Ron, horses make good eatin too.  In fact, horse is on the menu in European restaurants.

[cdowis]

The Mammoth disappeared after the Ice Age.

 

Yep, and the migration of humans to the American continent happened thousands of years before Adam.

 

I agree that chronology is a problem for the Bible and the Book of Mormon.  If you really demand to use such dating, it is end of discussion for any discussion of Christianity and history..

[Ron Beron]

By the way, Ron, horses make good eatin too.  In fact, horse is on the menu in European restaurants.

I inadvertently ate horse meat in Japan.  I felt soooo guilty.

[TruthSeeker2013]

Fantastic, thanks all!

[mnn727]

When I was investigating the Church 20+ years ago. I read the BoM and got to the point about elephants. I re-read it just to make sure that's what it really said and finding it indeed did say 'elephants' disgusted I threw the BoM across the room, it hit the wall and fell down behind the TV. I decided that was it, I have been going to Church for a while and had read 99% of the BoM and now I was disgusted and finished. Elephants in America! whatever!

That evening I was watching a nature show that talked about the California pygmy elephant that ranged from California all the way down into norther South America, that went extinct somewhere between 4200 BC and 1000 BC(so during the Jaredite era).  I moved the TV stand, picked up and straightened the BoM and went to Church again the next Sunday, and most every Sunday since.

Edited September 9, 2013 by mnn727

[Robert F. Smith]

I inadvertently ate horse meat in Japan.  I felt soooo guilty.

Hey, Ron, the best meal I ever ate was in a nice restaurant in Manila.  I asked for the special, and did not ask what sort of meat was being served.  Could have been dog, for all I knew. But it was great!!

[Robert F. Smith]

When I was investigating the Church 20+ years ago. I read the BoM and got to the point about elephants. I re-read it just to make sure that's what it really said and finding it indeed did say 'elephants' disgusted I threw the BoM across the room, it hit the wall and fell down behind the TV. I decided that was it, I have been going to Church for a while and had read 99% of the BoM and now I was disgusted and finished. Elephants in America! whatever!

That evening I was watching a nature show that talked about the California pygmy elephant that ranged from California all the way down into norther South America, that went extinct somewhere between 4200 BC and 1000 BC(so during the Jaredite era).  I moved the TV stand, picked up and straightened the BoM and went to Church again the next Sunday, and most every Sunday since.

[Ron Beron]

Hey, Ron, the best meal I ever ate was in a nice restaurant in Manila.  I asked for the special, and did not ask what sort of meat was being served.  Could have been dog, for all I knew. But it was great!!

Did it bark or meow?  In Japan they serve the food, usually seafood, still alive.  That's too much for me.

[ERayR]

When I was investigating the Church 20+ years ago. I read the BoM and got to the point about elephants. I re-read it just to make sure that's what it really said and finding it indeed did say 'elephants' disgusted I threw the BoM across the room, it hit the wall and fell down behind the TV. I decided that was it, I have been going to Church for a while and had read 99% of the BoM and now I was disgusted and finished. Elephants in America! whatever!

That evening I was watching a nature show that talked about the California pygmy elephant that ranged from California all the way down into norther South America, that went extinct somewhere between 4200 BC and 1000 BC(so during the Jaredite era).  I moved the TV stand, picked up and straightened the BoM and went to Church again the next Sunday, and most every Sunday since.

 

It's all there but one has to look and accept what is given.

[williamsmith]

Thanks to the contributions of knowledgeable and experienced members in this thread, this thread is a clear example of how a "theory" that is known and claimed by all as fact against the Church is entirely non-factual.

 

The Church again stands in the truth, while others against it do not.

[USU78]

By the way, Ron, horses make good eatin too.  In fact, horse is on the menu in European restaurants.

 

You been tripping to Vienna again?

[TruthSeeker2013]

When I was investigating the Church 20+ years ago. I read the BoM and got to the point about elephants. I re-read it just to make sure that's what it really said and finding it indeed did say 'elephants' disgusted I threw the BoM across the room, it hit the wall and fell down behind the TV. I decided that was it, I have been going to Church for a while and had read 99% of the BoM and now I was disgusted and finished. Elephants in America! whatever!

That evening I was watching a nature show that talked about the California pygmy elephant that ranged from California all the way down into norther South America, that went extinct somewhere between 4200 BC and 1000 BC(so during the Jaredite era).  I moved the TV stand, picked up and straightened the BoM and went to Church again the next Sunday, and most every Sunday since.

Do you happen to know what nature show it was? Or any source that says that?

[TruthSeeker2013]

We can, however, surmise that they did not go extinct before 2,000 BC.  This is the conclusion of a scientific report in the Sept 2008 issue of Current Biology, which was summarized as “DNA Shows That Last Woolly Mammoths Had North American Roots,” ScienceDaily, Sep 5, 2008, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904145058.htm .  “In a surprising reversal of conventional wisdom, a DNA-based study has revealed that the last of the woolly mammoths—which lived between 40,000 and 4,000 years ago—had roots that were exclusively North American,” i.e., as late as 2,000 B.C.

 

Robert, I believe you’ve misunderstood this article, can you confirm? The news article references in its heading that mammoths survived up until 4,000 years ago, however it is NOT referring to mammoths in North America, but instead is referring to mammoths in general. As I’m sure you know, an isolated group of mammoths died out around 4,000 years ago on Russia’s Wrangel Island and these are the latest surviving mammoths that have been discovered. The author of the article heading likely was referring to these Russian mammoths.

 

If you read the actual paper referenced in the article, it says nothing about when mammoths died in North America. It can be read here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904145058.htm

 

Instead, the paper discusses how mammoths migrated over Beringia (land mass over the Bering Strait) into North America, evolved, and then eventually migrated back to Siberia and replaced the existing woolly mammoths before finally dying out. Again, it contains no information or findings about when mammoths died out in North America.

 

Can you confirm?

[mnn727]

Do you happen to know what nature show it was? Or any source that says that?

Its been 20 + years, so no I don't remember what show it was, but Google  pygmy elephant and dwarf elephant and you'll get a number of sources - they all claim different times for extinction and different ranges

[Robert F. Smith]

Did it bark or meow?  In Japan they serve the food, usually seafood, still alive.  That's too much for me.

Yeh, in Japanese taco (tako?) is raw octopus.  Commonly available in Hawaii.

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert, I believe you’ve misunderstood this article, can you confirm? The news article references in its heading that mammoths survived up until 4,000 years ago, however it is NOT referring to mammoths in North America, but instead is referring to mammoths in general. As I’m sure you know, an isolated group of mammoths died out around 4,000 years ago on Russia’s Wrangel Island and these are the latest surviving mammoths that have been discovered. The author of the article heading likely was referring to these Russian mammoths.

 

If you read the actual paper referenced in the article, it says nothing about when mammoths died in North America. It can be read here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080904145058.htm

 

Instead, the paper discusses how mammoths migrated over Beringia (land mass over the Bering Strait) into North America, evolved, and then eventually migrated back to Siberia and replaced the existing woolly mammoths before finally dying out. Again, it contains no information or findings about when mammoths died out in North America.

 

Can you confirm?

You are correct.

The Wrangel Island (Siberia) extinction of dwarf mammoths took place probably not long after 1650 B.C.  For that is the latest Carbon 14 date we have for mammoths there.  We have a similar pygmy mammoth extinction situation on St Paul Island (Alaska), where the latest date is ca. 3725 B.C.  See Erik, et al., in Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, 273/1-2 (Mar 1, 2009), 184-190, online at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031018208006743 , and  http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/phylogeographic-analysis-of-the-mid-holocene-mammoth-from-qagnax-cave-Y3DAJvek0W (cf. http://alexandriaarchive.org/bonecommons/items/show/1663 ).

We do not actually know when the last mammoth died on those islands, nor in the central Yukon area which I also cited as examples of those rare places where we can find fossils or other DNA evidence.  Anyone wanting to see what these beasts looked like and the context from which they came, ought to visit the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.  Since the range of the Columbian mammoth covered most of North America down into Mesoamerica, we ought to be interested in the likelihood that isolated populations could have hung on or have been domesticated in some areas (as they were in Africa, India, Southeast Asia, and Indonesia).

 

Dwarf elephants once existed on Cyprus, Malta, Sardinia, Sicily, Crete, and some Aegean Islands.  Some are still living in Borneo.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Ron Beron]

Yeh, in Japanese taco (tako?) is raw octopus.  Commonly available in Hawaii.

The only problem with tako is that the suckers stick going down. 

[Ron Beron]

You are correct.

The Wrangel Island (Siberia) extinction of dwarf mammoths took place probably not long after 1650 B.C.  For that is the latest Carbon 14 date we have for mammoths there.  We have a similar pygmy mammoth extinction situation on St Paul Island (Alaska), where the latest date is ca. 3725 B.C.  See Erik, et al., in Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, 273/1-2 (Mar 1, 2009), 184-190, online at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031018208006743 , and  http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/phylogeographic-analysis-of-the-mid-holocene-mammoth-from-qagnax-cave-Y3DAJvek0W (cf. http://alexandriaarchive.org/bonecommons/items/show/1663 ).

We do not actually know when the last mammoth died on those islands, nor in the central Yukon area which I also cited as examples of those rare places where we can find fossils or other DNA evidence.  Anyone wanting to see what these beasts looked like and the context from which they came, ought to visit the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles.  Since the range of the Columbian mammoth covered most of North America down into Mesoamerica, we ought to be interested in the likelihood that isolated populations could have hung on or have been domesticated in some areas (as they were in Africa, India, Southeast Asia, and Indonesia).

 

Dwarf elephants once existed on Cyprus, Malta, Sardinia, Sicily, Crete, and some Aegean Islands.  Some are still living in Borneo.

You neglected the island of Flores.