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Developing An Understanding Between Mormons And Exmormons.


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How do you mean by validation? I know that they will never validate my beleif that they have not presented what I deem as valid evidense for God, ut their hearts have wholely been in the right place. I see that beleif in god is only a small part of a much larger picture, at least according to me. You may disagree with me and I accept that. I will even encourage you in every beleif thtat encourages happiness for all, even if that is beleif in a God. I would love to beleive in your concept of god for myself if I found evidence that I agree with. Your religion is awesome! :)

Living in Utah can seem to be a burden, if one allows himself to be frustrated with the socio-political unity of the State. I think what some are suggesting to you is simply to accept that reality (just as you would living in a very different, but equally frustrating environment, where one group dominated). Utahns likely merely want to know that you are a good person and a good neighbor. You don't have to be a TBM to do that. Utah, after all, was the first state to elect a Jew as Governor. There are many ways and opportunities for you to participate in community activities and have friends, without it being a religious issue..

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http://mormonstories...ave-the-church/

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Thank you for calling this video to my attention. I carefully watched the whole thing. I have listened to a couple of John Dehlin's podcasts also.

I have some problems with his research methods and presentation:

His statistical sampling was not scientific and was largely skewed toward one group. He admitted as much, and then went on to define the problem based on the false statistics he had generated through poor research design. As a clinical psychologist, he should know better.

His descriptions based on this false set of statistics was further based on his lack of knowledge about Mormonism (which he himself has admitted elsewhere, and he revels in interviewing people without preparing for the interviews). This from a former seminary teacher. His Power Point presentation contains false statements as though factual at point after point. He has done the same during his interviews. I don't see how this advances the discussion.

How different it is when someone like the late Sterling McMurrin would speak on Mormonism. Professor McMurrin was a non-believer and likely an atheist, but he was always genial, gracious, knowledgeable about, and appreciative of Mormon society. He actually understood the faith of his Fathers, even though he publicly declared the Book of Mormon to be fiction.

As usual, Dehlin derides nameless apologists at FAIR or FARMS/Maxwell Institute, as though they are horrible people who say terrible things, and who do more damage than good in facing faith challenges. Thus, he sets those who are challenged adrift to inform themselves about difficult issues -- not really allowing serious scholarship in the mix.

He makes some wise book recommendations to help those who are adrift in a sea of doubt, but then adds three books filled with falsehood (Southerton, Palmer, and Brodie), as though this might help someone through difficult times. It is likely that Dehlin honestly does not know that those books are of such poor quality -- D. Michael Quinn stated publicly in my presence in Provo years ago that Brodie wrote her book from a position of deep bitterness toward the Church (Dehlin only mentions that she is a niece of David O. McKay, as though to give her book some bona fides). Dehlin emphasizes love. I think that probity is called for also. That would help a lot in having real dialogue.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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http://mormonstories...ave-the-church/

I know that some exmormons (myself included) have been, to verying degrees, inneffective at developing an understanding with true beleiving mormons. A few of us exmormons feel intentionally decieved, and try to act out in different ways. For example, when I go to exmormon.org, I see that we sometimes come across as angry, or are angry. We sometimes are thinking that we are above the behavior and percieved fallacious rational that we spend time complaining about on that board when we have, or do engage in that behavior, or in beleiving an assortment of fallacies. I am personally working on it. Here is a video to help mormons to bridge the gap, and show greater love for exmormons, as all of us exmormons should do the same. It details some reasons that exmormons leave the church community and what to do about it from the authors beleiving mormon perspective. I would also like to add that to this video that some mormons leave the church for philosophical reasons, or develope them after they leave. Or decide that it is healthiest for them to overhaul the methodology in determining their beleifs

What are some things that you feel that exmormons can do to restore relationships with true beleiving mormons?

The requirements for the Mormon and the ex-Mormon are the same. Repent.

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I was not aware that John Dehlin is not mormon. Perimproving my behavior inaps it is others who simply have this misunderstanding about him. He spent his life in the church. Served a mission, created websites to help people on the fringes to stay in the church. He has served us as a clinical psychologist. I respect him.

I agree with Rules Universe. Improving my endeavers, behavior, and many things in life to help is all to live more peacefully, and increase in love is so important. Thank you so much for your wonderful compliment to our discussion.

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I was not aware that John Dehlin is not mormon.

John Dehlin is an active Mormon. Why would you think he wasn't?

Dehlin's problem (it is not unique to him) is that he is poorly informed and does not properly apply the academic research methods which he himself has learned from his mentors as well as from some of those he has interviewed. Instead, he has obfuscated and done his best to sideline those who defend the LDS religion from misinformation and misinterpretation -- especially those associated with FARMS or FAIR -- through making false statements about them. I would certainly appreciate him more if he would cease and desist from his attempts to censor or stop publication of things he doesn't agree with.

Perimproving my behavior inaps it is others who simply have this misunderstanding about him. He spent his life in the church. Served a mission, created websites to help people on the fringes to stay in the church. He has served us as a clinical psychologist. I respect him.

I agree with Rules Universe. Improving my endeavers, behavior, and many things in life to help is all to live more peacefully, and increase in love is so important. Thank you so much for your wonderful compliment to our discussion.

Dehlin ought to demonstrate by his actions that he in fact understands that the informed heart is the one which loves best. Making a plethora of false statements does no one any favor, including him. He has had plenty of opportunity to repair the damage he has done through callous disregard for the niceties of good manners and good scholarship. The road to you-know-where is lined with good intentions.

A reasonable analysis of the work of John Dehlin (and which he prevented from publication for many months) is contained at http://www.mormonint...mon-Stories.pdf .

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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Still, I would not define ones character by a falling out. The same could be applied toward mormons that leave. The mormon leavingcan be upset and have some heated arguments in defense of their choice to leave. This may come off to the others who are true beleiving as if the person leaving has lost the spirit in his life. Without actually being that person, or at least living with them, one cant really make that determination. These rifts developed between exmormons and true beleiving mormons may not actually be as vast and as difficult to fix as they appear. One may not know why another that has offended them does not apologize. It should not be concluded that the offender is not sorry.

Edited by exmormonatheistofutah
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One may also keep in mind that the severety of offense is often cultural. In your case, a group of apologists who have nobly worked very hard to keep their work as accurate as possible may be more offended by another who is academically lazy and biased in the work, while wrongfully accusing you of the same thing. But do you think his mom would view him and this offense in the same way? Nope, to her his big offense is missing dinner with her on Sunday evening. And for all you know, he might actually admire your group for your work. In a twisted way, some people insult those that they admire most. Envy, I guess. Of coarse I dont know dehlin, what I say is just from basic human understanding.

Edited by exmormonatheistofutah
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Thinking back to the most vitriolic postings on RFM, I wouldnt be suprised if some of them actually admire the mormon community that they left. Some of them likely perceived the best of those mormons they went to church with, and compared it to the worst of themselves. Then they fell away in order to comfort themselves. Later, they end up imagining, or publicly pretending to beleive in a false persona of the group that they left in order to justify their rational. They also can get addicted to searching out and even writing literature to help them justify their leaving. This does not automatically make them wrong or right in beleiving that the "church isnt true" (huge blanket term). I also wouldnt use their vitriolic postings as a measure of their general spiritual state. Some of them may even be purposefully making up a totally fake personality.

Edited by exmormonatheistofutah
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The mormon leavingcan be upset and have some heated arguments in defense of their choice to leave.

If one is comfortable with their choice there is no need to defend it to anyone except a spouse.

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Thinking back to the most vitriolic postings on RFM, I wouldnt be suprised if some of them actually admire the mormon community that they left. Some of them likely perceived the best of those mormons they went to church with, and compared it to the worst of themselves. Then they fell away in order to comfort themselves. Later, they end up imagining, or publicly pretending to beleive in a false persona of the group that they left in order to justify their rational. They also can get addicted to searching out and even writing llterature to help them justify their leaving. This does not automatically make them wrong or right in beleiving that the "church isnt true" (huge blanket term). I also wouldnt use their vitriolic postings as a measure of their general spiritual state. Some of them may even be purposefully making a fake persona.

I think you are right and their is a lot of self justification.

It is always wrong to believe and fabricate falsehoods.

It is not up to me to judge their spiritual state. However, it is perfectly legitimate to judge the vitriol they spew.

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I would also love for the exmormorms to stop backbiting the church, and leaving church history to the scholars, or become scholars themselves. In fact, I would love to see millions of inactives and exmormons go back to church. The religious rifts in the communities here in Utah is destructive to this society. I have moved to my town 6 months ago, and I have yet talk to anyone in my town. Everyone is so busy that the only time I can meet and get to know them is at church and its activities. I wish that they would post their ward activities publically, so that those nonmembers who wan

t to be part of the community can spend time with them. Their communities here have unintentionally become quite exclusive. It is not at all just mormon problem, I'm simply saying that they have a highly effective tool at their disposal which isnt being taken advantage of outside of the sYSA program. Sorry, I didnt mean to type this in bold and dont know how to change it on my phone.

Edited by exmormonatheistofutah
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'exmormonatheistofutah said:

Still, I would not define ones character by a falling out. The same could be applied toward mormons that leave. The mormon leavingcan be upset and have some heated arguments in defense of their choice to leave. This may come off to the others who are true beleiving as if the person leaving has lost the spirit in his life. Without actually being that person, or at least living with them, one cant really make that determination. These rifts developed between exmormons and true beleiving mormons may not actually be as vast and as difficult to fix as they appear. One may not know why another that has offended them does not apologize. It should not be concluded that the offender is not sorry.

One may also keep in mind that the severety of offense is often cultural. In your case, a group of apologists who have nobly worked very hard to keep their work as accurate as possible may be more offended by another who is academically lazy and biased in the work, while wrongfully accusing you of the same thing. But do you think his mom would view him and this offense in the same way? Nope, to her his big offense is missing dinner with her on Sunday evening. And for all you know, he might actually admire your group for your work. In a twisted way, some people insult those that they admire most. Envy, I guess. Of coarse I dont know dehlin, what I say is just from basic human understanding.

I suppose much of what you say is true. I have met many anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons and have found most to be friendly and non-threatening. I got on well with most of them, including the ones who thought they had a prophetic word for the world. Some were on a "mission." Very few of them had any ,understanding of the religious issues they were dealing with.

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I would also love for the exmormorms to stop backbiting the church, and leaving church history to the scholars, or become scholars themselves. In fact, I would love to see millions of inactives and exmormons go back to church. The religious rifts in the communities here in Utah is destructive to this society. I have moved to my town 6 months ago, and I have yet talk to anyone in my town. Everyone is so busy that the only time I can meet and get to know them is at church and its activities. I wish that they would post their ward activities publically, so that those nonmembers who wan

t to be part of the community can spend time with them. Their communities here have unintentionally become quite exclusive. It is not at all just mormon problem, I'm simply saying that they have a highly effective tool at their disposal which isnt being taken advantage of outside of the sYSA program. Sorry, I didnt mean to type this in bold and dont know how to change it on my phone.

This exhibits a profound understanding of what goes on in a small community. You should feel free to attend Church locally. Just ask people what time the wards meet and attend one. I know excommunicants who attend ward socials and are very friendly and nice about it. The bishop of such a ward would encourage you to attend, but would discourage you from praying in meetings or in taking an active part in priesthood meetings. Attendance is alright in such meetings. You don't have to explain yourself: When called upon to answer a question or to pray, simply decline. No one will harrass you or think badly of you. Mormons try very hard to be respectful of others.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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But back to the fabricating falsehoods you had mentioned. I can see how you are upset by that. I am upset by that as well as pseudoscience for dumbing down America. Unfortunately, as more time passes, more historical records are lost than are discovered. I dont think the future will make early church history more clear for the vast majority, but more vague. Most of what the members hear that destroys their testimony is "pseudohistory" which is rife in all historical domains. 'History' or 'pseudohistory' is whatever the writers has choosen to write it. That is why my religion that I have chosen remains robust when historical and scientific knowledge is lost or gained. Please note that I am not claiming that yours fails.

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I tried going today, showed up an hour after thr last ward went home at twelve :sad:

Try next week at 8 or 9am. However, they may only have a sacrament meeting next Sunday where you live. This may be due to the training meeting being held at 4pm next Sunday at the Marriott Center at BYU. It will be broadcast to your local Stake Center, and you might want to attend to discover what the First Presidency will be saying. I expect it to be a very spiritual meeting. Arrive at 3:30pm so as to get a good seat.

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