Does The Mormon Church Encourage Lds People To Lie? -- Joanna Brooks

[ERayR]

This is a couple of pages back, but I'm reading through this thread and wanted to respond to this one.

Just because we find something wonderful about the LDS Church (and I do, along with many others who have some unorthodox views) doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or that there are not some dreadful errors, along side those "wonderful" parts. That is the real challenge for middle-wayers...who are, mostly, trying to embrace the "wonderful", without losing their integrity, regarding the things they find not so wonderful. It's a difficult balancing act, which I have not mastered...but, always admire those who have..

The something wonderful is in part a result of that which you would change or loose your integrity. Those "dreadful errors" are part and parcel of the something wonderful. If you feel you will lose your integrity by embracing it along with the something wonderful then don't embrace it. How can you have any integrity claiming to embrace something wonderful then try to destroy that which you claim to embrace?

[bjpascoal]

Lead by example. If the church itself is less than honest, then the members are going to follow the lead.

A really good example of less than honesty coming straight from mormon.org is the biography of Joseph Smith in the "Devoted Husband" Section

Bold words added by me for emphasis

http://mormon.org/joseph-smith

A Devoted Husband and Father

The heavy burden of leading the Church did not distract Joseph from his responsibility to his wife and children; it increased his love for them.

One of the later Prophets of the Church told the members, "No other success can compensate for failure in the home." This statement came more than a century after Joseph Smith died, but Joseph exemplified this idea all his life. Even though Joseph was often persecuted and sometimes imprisoned on false charges, his first thoughts were always for his family. He wrote to his wife, Emma, while he was imprisoned in Missouri,

"Tell the children that I am alive and trust that I shall come and see them before long. Comfort their hearts all you can, and try to be comforted yourself all you can."

Joseph lived the doctrine he preached—that strengthening our families should be an important focus of our lives. When his life was in jeopardy, Joseph relied on his faith in Jesus Christ not only to sustain himself, but his wife and children as well.[

[why me]

Lead by example. If the church itself is less than honest, then the members are going to follow the lead.

A really good example of less than honesty coming straight from mormon.org is the biography of Joseph Smith in the "Devoted Husband" Section

Bold words added by me for emphasis

http://mormon.org/joseph-smith

I am sorry but I missed your point. It is well known that both emma and joseph were devoted to each other. And emma still remained devoted to joseph even after he was murdered. What joseph wrote to emma is exactly how he felt:

"Tell the children that I am alive and trust that I shall come and see them before long. Comfort their hearts all you can, and try to be comforted yourself all you can."

Where is the lie?

[Libs]

The something wonderful is in part a result of that which you would change or loose your integrity. Those "dreadful errors" are part and parcel of the something wonderful. If you feel you will lose your integrity by embracing it along with the something wonderful then don't embrace it. How can you have any integrity claiming to embrace something wonderful then try to destroy that which you claim to embrace?

What do you think I am trying to destroy? I'm not trying to destroy anything (that I am aware of).

[thesometimesaint]

Why me:

No state should be run like a business.

[bjpascoal]

I am sorry but I missed your point.

I think you've just demostrated my example. Read the quote I posted again and pay certain attention to the three words that I bolded for emphasis. If you still can't see it as "less than honest" then we have an divide between us with what it means to be forthright and honest in our religious discussions.

"The heavy burden of leading the Church did not distract Joseph from his responsibility to his wife and children;"

[Carborendum]

But "like a business" is not the same as "as a business."

I'm sorry. I didn't realize Bill Clinton was on this board.

[ERayR]

What do you think I am trying to destroy? I'm not trying to destroy anything (that I am aware of).

You want to take the church and remake it to suit yourself. Not wholly but just in the areas you don't agree with. Some one else doesn't agree with something else so they want to change that. If you had your way you soon would make the church the rest of us know and love would be unrecognizable and the temples would be just another stop on a local tourist tour.

A few years back the Catholic Church went through a period of vociferous protesters wanting to change the church to suit themselves. I wondered then, why are you(protesters) Catholic then. If you don't like the church why are you trying to ruin it for others that do.

My observation would be, if God wants to change his church to fit your vision of it you will surely be getting a call from SLC. In the meantime KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF THE CHURCH THE REST OF US KNOW AND LOVE.

Edited August 13, 2012 by ERayR

[ERayR]

I am sorry but I missed your point. It is well known that both emma and joseph were devoted to each other. And emma still remained devoted to joseph even after he was murdered. What joseph wrote to emma is exactly how he felt:

"Tell the children that I am alive and trust that I shall come and see them before long. Comfort their hearts all you can, and try to be comforted yourself all you can."

Where is the lie?

It said wife instead of wives. Didn't you hear the drums and chanting (grunting) from the sty er trailer park.

[selek1]

That is the real challenge for middle-wayers...who are, mostly, trying to embrace the "wonderful", without losing their integrity, regarding the things they find not so wonderful.

Complete and utter rot.

The challenge is not that they are in danger of losing their integrity by embracing the "wonderful" within the Church- but in that they are trying to embrace Babylon while still pretending to be faithful Latter-day Saints.

The only cognitive dissonance involved is when one realizes that you cannot reach the iron rod while booking a suite in the Great and Spacious building.

It's a difficult balancing act, which I have not mastered...but, always admire those who have..

I'll agree with that in context.

[wayfarer]

Complete and utter rot.

The challenge is not that they are in danger of losing their integrity by embracing the "wonderful" within the Church- but in that they are trying to embrace Babylon while still pretending to be faithful Latter-day Saints.

The only cognitive dissonance involved is when one realizes that you cannot reach the iron rod while booking a suite in the Great and Spacious building.

to some, perhaps, their middle-way is one of mediocrity. to me, the Middle Way is the Way of Jesus Christ, who taught, dined, and lived among sinners and those who needed his ministry. the Middle Way was practiced by Buddha, by Confucius, by Lao Tzu, and by Thomas Cranmer, the martyred founder of anglicanism. as well, Dieter Uchtdorf spoke of our being in the glorious middle of our eternal lives (July Ensign)!

the Middle Way is a centered life. the late Steve Covey published his central thinking, entitled "the Divine Center", comparing all alternatives to a life centered on Christ, and showing how they fall short. we avoid extremes, polemics, anger, hostility, and focus on truth and love. such a life requires discipline and integrity.

while some may think of us on the Middle Way as courting Babylon, it is nothing like that. we merely seek truth, from whatever source it may come.

[ERayR]

to some, perhaps, their middle-way is one of mediocrity. to me, the Middle Way is the Way of Jesus Christ, who taught, dined, and lived among sinners and those who needed his ministry. the Middle Way was practiced by Buddha, by Confucius, by Lao Tzu, and by Thomas Cranmer, the martyred founder of anglicanism. as well, Dieter Uchtdorf spoke of our being in the glorious middle of our eternal lives (July Ensign)!

the Middle Way is a centered life. the late Steve Covey published his central thinking, entitled "the Divine Center", comparing all alternatives to a life centered on Christ, and showing how they fall short. we avoid extremes, polemics, anger, hostility, and focus on truth and love. such a life requires discipline and integrity.

while some may think of us on the Middle Way as courting Babylon, it is nothing like that. we merely seek truth, from whatever source it may come.

Revelation 3:16

[wayfarer]

Revelation 3:16

do you know the context of that scripture?

from my blog:

One objection I hear over and over again is that the Middle Way is wrong because it is 'lukewarm'.  People cite the following scripture as rejecting the Middle Way:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16)

What an unfortunate scripture.  The King James translators were gracious in this translation -- the greek word more accurately translates into 'vomit' instead of 'spew'.  I wonder, though.  Does this "proof text" mean what people think it means? is it really talking about "middle ground" or rather, indifference?

The Middle Way I subscribe to is by no means indifferent.  It's hard work and it's decisive: One must decisively establish what one believes, and be confident enough in it so as to not be bothered by others' beliefs.  This is not lukewarm.

If you are an independent voter, and carefully vote based upon issues and what you feel to be right, does this mean you are indifferent? lukewarm?

I believe the Middle Way is to objectively seek the truth in things, recognizing that truth has many dimensions.  That a myth is not literally true does not mean it does not contain moral truth.

The Middle Way is also one of love, of harmony, of listening to other viewpoints and being willing to share what we have in common.  Because we have gifts differing, each one of us has a slightly different view of life.  While some things are provably true or false, many other things are subject to our opinions and thus are not really debatable in a meaningful way.  Can we not find a middle ground to share what we feel? 

[selek1]

to some, perhaps, their middle-way is one of mediocrity. to me, the Middle Way is the Way of Jesus Christ, who taught, dined, and lived among sinners and those who needed his ministry.

Complete and utter rot.

Jesus Christ was unyielding in teaching the truth and in calling people to repentance.

He was equally harsh in condemning those who would alter eternal law to suit their faddish desire for the customs and habits of Babylon.

Yes- his ministry was among the sinners- but Christ never justified sin as "just another lifestyle choice".

In fact, Christ was rather explicit in his condemnation of those who would not repent and warned that "straight is the gate and narrow is the way".

Contrary to the modern metrosexual fantasy, Jesus never endorsed an "if it feels good to you, we'll make it work out" theology, nor did he ever define what was moral by taking a poll of the giltterati of the day.

Christ stated in no uncertain terms that those who called evil "good" and good, "evil" were under condemnation- and was unsparing of those who would pervert the word of the Lord and his servants to lead his children away (which is especially ironic considering your reference to President Uchtdorf).

Jesus considered and (judging by the words of his prophets) still considers moral relatavism to be a sure path to Hell, not salvation.

the Middle Way was practiced by Buddha, by Confucius, by Lao Tzu, and by Thomas Cranmer, the martyred founder of anglicanism. as well, Dieter Uchtdorf spoke of our being in the glorious middle of our eternal lives (July Ensign)!

You are badly misrepresenting President Uchtdorf's comments and message.

He said nothing about "middle ground" between the Church and Babylon. He said nothing about making excuses for sin, or for fomenting and excusing disloyalty and Church dissension.

He said nothing to contradict the Lord's admonition in Revelations 3:15-16.

the Middle Way is a centered life. the late Steve Covey published his central thinking, entitled "the Divine Center", comparing all alternatives to a life centered on Christ, and showing how they fall short. we avoid extremes, polemics, anger, hostility, and focus on truth and love. such a life requires discipline and integrity.

while some may think of us on the Middle Way as courting Babylon, it is nothing like that. we merely seek truth, from whatever source it may come.

This is the same sort of self-congratulatory, pseudo-intellectual nonsense we get treated to day in and day out by athiests who insist that they are somehow more rationale, more logical, and more reasoning than believers.

It doesn't pass the smell test in either case.

Edited August 13, 2012 by selek1

[ERayR]

do you know the context of that scripture?

from my blog:

One objection I hear over and over again is that the Middle Way is wrong because it is 'lukewarm'. People cite the following scripture as rejecting the Middle Way:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16)

What an unfortunate scripture. The King James translators were gracious in this translation -- the greek word more accurately translates into 'vomit' instead of 'spew'. I wonder, though. Does this "proof text" mean what people think it means? is it really talking about "middle ground" or rather, indifference?

The Middle Way I subscribe to is by no means indifferent. It's hard work and it's decisive: One must decisively establish what one believes, and be confident enough in it so as to not be bothered by others' beliefs. This is not lukewarm.

If you are an independent voter, and carefully vote based upon issues and what you feel to be right, does this mean you are indifferent? lukewarm?

I believe the Middle Way is to objectively seek the truth in things, recognizing that truth has many dimensions. That a myth is not literally true does not mean it does not contain moral truth.

The Middle Way is also one of love, of harmony, of listening to other viewpoints and being willing to share what we have in common. Because we have gifts differing, each one of us has a slightly different view of life. While some things are provably true or false, many other things are subject to our opinions and thus are not really debatable in a meaningful way. Can we not find a middle ground to share what we feel?

Let me put it another way perhaps the common vernacular will make it more plain. He who straddles the fence accomplishes nothing and ends up with a sore crotch.

[supersnail]

Lead by example. If the church itself is less than honest, then the members are going to follow the lead.

A really good example of less than honesty coming straight from mormon.org is the biography of Joseph Smith in the "Devoted Husband" Section

Bold words added by me for emphasis

http://mormon.org/joseph-smith

Well, since everyone knows Joseph Smith was an evil polygamist anyway, the reader could hardly be deceived, right?

I'm sorry, but this just sounds like nitpicking, especially with the second instance of "wife" there, where the issue is about a comma between "wife" and "Emma." The irony is that critics consider Emma Smith to be Joseph Smith's only legitimate wife, but they do not acknowledge what was unique about their relationship throughout 1827-1844. Nevermind that many of the marriages and their nature are in dispute. Relatively recently, DNA testing showed that he is not the father of several alleged children from those marriages. What would be misleading would be to make a simplistic statement about Joseph Smith's "wives" without going into the details.

If you click on FAQ, though, you will find an entry reading: "In this dispensation, the Lord commanded some of the early Saints to practice plural marriage. The Prophet Joseph Smith and those closest to him, including Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, were challenged by this command, but they obeyed it." It's hard to understand how anyone could miss that. That's right on mormon.org only a couple clicks away.

OK, I understand we are talking about the Facebook generation here and people who may have short attention spans. But given that is the case, why do critics suggest that these brief introductions must contain the explanations that must accompany such frequently misunderstood topics as plural marriage? How about stop making excuses for others' lazy reading habits.

[wayfarer]

Complete and utter rot.

He said nothing about "middle ground" between the Church and Babylon. He said nothing about making excuses for sin, or for fomenting and excusing disloyalty and Church dissension.

i said nothing about babylon. perhaps you should learn more about that of which i speak before you construct a strawman thereof.

if you are open to discussing in civil terms, i am happy to help provide information.

by the way, jesus reserved his condemnations for the pseudo righteous if the church who were hypocritically intolerant. that is not The Way.

[selek1]

perhaps you should learn more about that of which i speak before you construct a strawman thereof.

Yes- I understand that you think your version of "lukewarm" is different- who doesn't?

You're a unique and special snowflake- just like everyone else.

if you are open to discussing in civil terms, i am happy to help provide information

Considering that I'm not the one who's been caught in multiple falsehoods, I find this offer to be somewhat less than genuine.

by the way, jesus reserved his condemnations for the pseudo righteous if the church who were hypocritically intolerant. that is not The Way.

False. Jesus condemned the unrighteous, whether or not they affected a patronizing condescension about their supposed moral superiority.

You are out of the thread.

[wayfarer]

Let me put it another way perhaps the common vernacular will make it more plain. He who straddles the fence accomplishes nothing and ends up with a sore crotch.

indeed. but is the Middle Way fence sitting? I consider myself fully loyal to the church. i do not welcome polemics from either side. i try to focus on truth, and that which we share in common. i have for many years been an official church representative on a major interfaith council. Middle Way simply means finding truth openly from wherever it is available, not rejecting another viewpoint simply because it isn't mine.

that does not mean i am any less LDS, active, faithful, or worthy than anyone else. Sure there are those who say "middle way" and really mean they are on their way out. I am not one of those. I have been on the Middle Way for over two decades, all while active and holding leadership callings. the Middle Way of which i speak does not advocate against the church, does not seek babylon. it only seeks truth and common ground on which we share humanity and values, withou compromise of truth.

[ERayR]

indeed. but is the Middle Way fence sitting? I consider myself fully loyal to the church. i do not welcome polemics from either side. i try to focus on truth, and that which we share in common. i have for many years been an official church representative on a major interfaith council. Middle Way simply means finding truth openly from wherever it is available, not rejecting another viewpoint simply because it isn't mine.

that does not mean i am any less LDS, active, faithful, or worthy than anyone else. Sure there are those who say "middle way" and really mean they are on their way out. I am not one of those. I have been on the Middle Way for over two decades, all while active and holding leadership callings. the Middle Way of which i speak does not advocate against the church, does not seek babylon. it only seeks truth and common ground on which we share humanity and values, withou compromise of truth.

Now you are practicing sophistry. Call yourself what you will it matters not to me..

Just because you don't advocate against the church doesn't mean you advocate for it. It just means you are, well, lukewarm. Just because you haven't the courage or conviction to take a stand qualify you for the gold medal.

You are out of the thread.

[cwald]

You are wasting your breath here Wayfarer. It is pointless to cast pearls before swine.

You are out of the thread.

[cwald]

There is no middle way. And John Dehlin and his "followers" are nothing more than anti Mormons wolf in sheep clothing.

This conversation will not end well for you Wayfarer.

[ERayR]

indeed. but is the Middle Way fence sitting? I consider myself fully loyal to the church. i do not welcome polemics from either side. i try to focus on truth, and that which we share in common. i have for many years been an official church representative on a major interfaith council. Middle Way simply means finding truth openly from wherever it is available, not rejecting another viewpoint simply because it isn't mine.

that does not mean i am any less LDS, active, faithful, or worthy than anyone else. Sure there are those who say "middle way" and really mean they are on their way out. I am not one of those. I have been on the Middle Way for over two decades, all while active and holding leadership callings. the Middle Way of which i speak does not advocate against the church, does not seek babylon. it only seeks truth and common ground on which we share humanity and values, withou compromise of truth.

Question did you stand for or against prop 8? Do you stand for or against a temple recommend for practicing homosexuals? If they are "married" in states where ssm is legal?

[ERayR]

There is no middle way. And John Dehlin and his "followers" are nothing more than anti Mormons wolf in sheep clothing.

This conversation will not end well for you Wayfarer.

And you don't seem to have anything of substance to add.

[Libs]

I wasn't even going to respond to this, but decided I wanted to.

You want to take the church and remake it to suit yourself. Not wholly but just in the areas you don't agree with. Some one else doesn't agree with something else so they want to change that. If you had your way you soon would make the church the rest of us know and love would be unrecognizable and the temples would be just another stop on a local tourist tour.

I'm not even in the church, right now, Ray, so I'm not sure how you think I am trying to "remake it to suit myself". I assure you, I have no such agenda. I don't even call myself LDS, anymore.

A few years back the Catholic Church went through a period of vociferous protesters wanting to change the church to suit themselves. I wondered then, why are you(protesters) Catholic then. If you don't like the church why are you trying to ruin it for others that do.

Do you really believe that everyone who seeks change is trying to "ruin it for others"? You seem to be a "love it or leave it" kind of person. I love a lot of institutions to which I have belonged, including the LDS Church...and I love this country...but, that doesn't mean I have to be blind to what I perceive as it's faults. Change is not always bad, y/k? Sometimes, it is good and much needed.

All of that said, I still am not trying to change the LDS Church. Discussing issues on this board doesn't equate to being a "subversive" in the church. I still enjoy discussion about LDS topics and I also stay around to support others who are middlewayers or having their own struggles. Some people on this board can be very hostile towards that view.

My observation would be, if God wants to change his church to fit your vision of it you will surely be getting a call from SLC. In the meantime KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF THE CHURCH THE REST OF US KNOW AND LOVE.

Like I said.....

Do you think the church only belongs to people who agree with every jot and tittle one-hundred percent? Believe every word or get the heck out? Not a very charitable view.