Does The Mormon Church Encourage Lds People To Lie? -- Joanna Brooks

[why me]

I don't think it was age I think he was very aware of how deceitful and culpable of distortion the news media is and how sacred some of those doctrines are so he deflected the question as best he could on short notice. It may even be that some media people violated agreements as to areas of questioning, it wouldn't be the first time.

I don't think that President Hinckley knew what questions were going to be asked of him. This would explain a lot. Not easy to field questions from larry king under the best of circumstances never mind someone who was in the upper age bracket. I give him much credit for appearing on television. He gave it his best.

[Tacenda]

I don't think that President Hinckley knew what questions were going to be asked of him. This would explain a lot. Not easy to field questions from larry king under the best of circumstances never mind someone who was in the upper age bracket. I give him much credit for appearing on television. He gave it his best.

I asked this before on another thread. Does anyone know if the Pope has been interviewed by the media? I was always impressed with President Hinckley for bringing the church out of seclusion as far as the media goes.

[ERayR]

How do you run it? Like the Catholics, I suppose, though I'd prefer it more like the Baptists. The Catholics have, what, 900 million? They hold a similar view of the strong, central Church power. Yet they have somehow managed to avoid the corporate, business patina to their methods (the name of their church isn't a trademark, nor do they trademark their programs. I hold a trademark and know that, in order to secure it, one must prove interstate commerce using the mark). Actually, I really admire a lot about the Catholic Church, in particular their views on economic justice. We Mormons seem to have a de-facto acceptance of financial and commercial capitalism, even within the Church heirarchy. The Catholics have managed to get by without it, and I think their long and deep thinking on the matter is really beautiful and has attracted some of the most pious and intelligent men who have ever put pen to paper. I struggle with the fact that we haven't got such a sublime truth in our own organization, and perhaps that is what disposes me to listen to the likes of Daymon Smith.

I take it then you are a faithful practicing Catholic then. Good one should have some harmony with the faith he/she espouse.

[why me]

I asked this before on another thread. Does anyone know if the Pope has been interviewed by the media? I was always impressed with President Hinckley for bringing the church out of seclusion as far as the media goes.

When I was posting on the catholic apologetics board this is something that I brought up after the catholics were mocking Hinckley for what he said. I said to them that it would be interesting just how Pope Benedict would do on larry king or with Mike Wallace. I gave president hinckley a lot of credit for appearing on television and taking the risk.

[pmccombs1]

The Catholic Church is just as much involved in corporate America as the LDS Church, though it may be more of a multi-national corporation. It runs for-profit ventures. It sues and is sued. Years a go there was a lawsuit in Germany where the court held that the Catholic Church held the sole ownership rights to the name, Roman Catholic Church.

I tried to do some research on this topic once and came up pretty empty. I couldn't find the same level of intellectual property protections for the Catholic Church as I could for the Mormons (i.e. I couldn't find any at all in the USPTO database... I had been busy verifying some of Daymon Smith's claims, since I'm a general-purpose skeptic, and thought I'd look into the Catholics while I was at it). While there were Catholic businesses, I couldn't find anything tied to the central Catholic authority. Maybe the Catholics are just worse at it, or more sneaky! Or I'm just a bad researcher--also a possibility. I suspect any of the for-profit businesses of the Catholic church are less under the central oversight of the Holy See, but I don't know.

No doubt about the lawsuits, though.

What exactly about the Roman Catholic Church that makes you believe it is not run in a firm corporate model, and what is it about the way the LDS corporate model functions that you find distasteful? At least the Church hasn't socked away its wealth in the Cayman Islands, AFAIK.

Maybe it's just that the Catholic Church doesn't have a "Church Office Building" that I know of. I had dinner with a Roman Catholic Priest once. He drove me back to my hotel and griped about this and that in the Catholic Church (a bit to my surprise). He was a good honest priest, really. Anyway, I was left with the impression that there isn't so much standardization among the Catholics as there is among us Mormons. Well, the cookie-cutter McChurch feeling bugs me to death. I'm not looking forward very much to a heaven of such mass-produced sameness as we are seeing here in Zion.

You know, when I'm prophet, the first man who delivers a sermon in a business suit is getting excommunicated! And we're going to take back the sabbath too. No more three hour block. We can all stop pretending that "serving the Lord" is the same thing as "resting." Right, and I'm going to ask the Lord to consider changing the demographic of his chosen leadership from strictly successful professionals, heavy in the MBA department, to include a few poor farm boys (who still haven't made the big-time) here and there. But we will continue to discourage all of our members from lying!

I'm kidding around... mostly.

Edited August 10, 2012 by pmccombs1

[pmccombs1]

I take it then you are a faithful practicing Catholic then. Good one should have some harmony with the faith he/she espouse.

No, I'm a Mormon among other scary things.

Edited August 10, 2012 by pmccombs1

[volgadon]

I tried to do some research on this topic once and came up pretty empty. I couldn't find the same level of intellectual property protections for the Catholic Church as I could for the Mormons

I think you'll find that the roots of this stretch back to the early history of the church, which Daymon Smith admires so much.

Edited August 10, 2012 by volgadon

[ERayR]

No, I'm a Mormon among other scary things.

My bad. It's just that your accolades for the Catholic church and your disdain for things LDS misled me.

[pmccombs1]

I think you'll find that the roots of this stretch back to the early history of the church, which Daymon Smith admires so much.

Well, it does indeed. And it has some affinity for the Mormon ideal of thrift and industry. It is distincly an American facet of an American church. In that commentary, however, I am expressing more of my own opinion than of what I think is Daymon Smith's opinion. I really can't speak for him, and everything I've said about it has been merely my own view. It's not an easy thing to have an argument with brother Smith vicariously!

[pmccombs1]

My bad. It's just that your accolades for the Catholic church and your disdain for things LDS misled me.

Alas, it's a terrible thing to be devil's advocate wherever I go! Already two demerits for me on the Catholic boards for sticking up for Mormonism, and here I am crusading for the Catholics on the Mormon forum.

I have this bizarre craving for the awful stress of religious conflict.

Honestly, though, if I saw nothing good in Mormonism, I wouldn't be in it. I hope I have said some good things about my own church here. Is anyone keeping score?

[Tacenda]

Alas, it's a terrible thing to be devil's advocate wherever I go! Already two demerits for me on the Catholic boards for sticking up for Mormonism, and here I am crusading for the Catholics on the Mormon forum.

I have this bizarre craving for the awful stress of religious conflict.

Honestly, though, if I saw nothing good in Mormonism, I wouldn't be in it. I hope I have said some good things about my own church here. Is anyone keeping score?

I have something good to say about mormons, pick me, pick me....and don't feel bad, I've been told I must be anti and not even a mormon at all, by someone on this board.

My sister married a Catholic. But before they got married in the chapel in the Mormon church (they use to allow that) my brother in law had to meet with his priest to get permission of some kind first. So my sister, him and my mom went to have the meeting with this man. My mom could have been biased back then, stalwart LDS, but she told me later what happened and said that the priest gave my bro-in-law quite the hard time. My mom said he had this big cigar in his mouth and leaned back on his chair with his feet up on the desk and was quite belittling of my bro in law.

After being told this, I compared the priest, only in this instance mind you, to our bishop at the time, a most humble family man, who was the sweetest man you'd ever want to meet. He did a fantastic job of officiating at their wedding too.

So there, I said something positive too. And something not so positive of the Catholic priest (sorry if I've offended anyone).

You're not the only conflicted person pmccombs1!

Edited August 11, 2012 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

I have something good to say about mormons, pick me, pick me....and don't feel bad, I've been told I must be anti and not even a mormon at all, by someone on this board.

My sister married a Catholic. But before they got married in the chapel in the Mormon church (they use to allow that) my brother in law had to meet with his priest to get permission of some kind first. So my sister, him and my mom went to have the meeting with this man. My mom could have been biased back then, stalwart LDS, but she told me later what happened and said that the priest gave my bro-in-law quite the hard time. My mom said he had this big cigar in his mouth and leaned back on his chair with his feet up on the desk and was quite belittling of my bro in law.

After being told this, I compared the priest, only in this instance mind you, to our bishop at the time, a most humble family man, who was the sweetest man you'd ever want to meet. He did a fantastic job of officiating at their wedding too.

So there, I said something positive too. And something not so positive of the Catholic priest (sorry if I've offended anyone).

You're not the only conflicted person pmccombs1!

I try not to speak ill of another's religious preference. The only thing i will say is that when one chooses a religion one ought to live it. I never could understand professing a religion then trying to change it to suit ones self.

Edited August 11, 2012 by ERayR

[Tacenda]

I try not to speak ill of another's religious preference. The only thing i will say is that when one chooses a religion one ought to live it. I never could understand professing a religion then trying to change it to suit ones self.

I believe my religion isn't so stringent on things, like some policies, that they won't change no matter what. That's what is so great about my religion. I don't think I've said anything about our doctrine needing to be changed, but have expressed some angst with some of it, possibly. That is, if polygamy in the hereafter is doctrine. Can you tell me when I've wanted to change doctrine? I may have I just can't recall where I have.

[Deborah]

I think you'll find that the roots of this stretch back to the early history of the church, which Daymon Smith admires so much.

It's interesting because this group worships Brigham Young, and he was the first to incorporate the church, although they rationalize it and say it meant something different. This group also mocks the men in business suits who stand at the head, and yet if I'm not mistaken BY pretty much wore a suit every time he stood in front of the church.

[ERayR]

I believe my religion isn't so stringent on things, like some policies, that they won't change no matter what. That's what is so great about my religion. I don't think I've said anything about our doctrine needing to be changed, but have expressed some angst with some of it, possibly. That is, if polygamy in the hereafter is doctrine. Can you tell me when I've wanted to change doctrine? I may have I just can't recall where I have.

Don't chalk this one up to the personal column except maybe the characterization of the Catholic priest as a cigar smoking arrogant ***. In the first place smoking is not against his religion. The rest I am willing to chalk up to an attempt to get your BIL to understand the seriousness of marrying outside his religion. The rest was just wondering.

[why me]

Maybe it's just that the Catholic Church doesn't have a "Church Office Building" that I know of. I had dinner with a Roman Catholic Priest once. He drove me back to my hotel and griped about this and that in the Catholic Church (a bit to my surprise). He was a good honest priest, really. Anyway, I was left with the impression that there isn't so much standardization among the Catholics as there is among us Mormons. Well, the cookie-cutter McChurch feeling bugs me to death. I'm not looking forward very much to a heaven of such mass-produced sameness as we are seeing here in Zion.

The catholic church does have a vatican complete with its own bank. Very few people know what goes on in the vatican. Not so easy to penetrate. I am sure that the catholic church can be compared to a state within a state. And all states need to be run like a business. I would also assume that protestant religions also have a main office building where they can conduct the general church's business. We also need to remember that in the catholic faith, priests, bishops etc wear outer clothing identifying them and their position within the church. This is the same for the lutheran church etc.

[tyler90az]

My Grandpa said this to me as his final advice, "it is never ok to do wrong to get somebody to do right."

Why did he say that you ask? He told me that because members have done that very thing to me. As he knows I am locked in to this church for the rest of my life he does not want me doing that. I could not tell him that is wrong, because it is very true. It is like the reverse miracle. We believe in creating miracles for people, but also the reverse. If somebody is falling away from the church we believe their life will basically go to "hell" and the members I have dealt with would not hesitate to make that happen.

All I could tell him was, "the higher leadership of the church now would not recommend it as far as I know."

It is some psychology of fellow members that could use some fixing for sure.

[pmccombs1]

I try not to speak ill of another's religious preference. The only thing i will say is that when one chooses a religion one ought to live it. I never could understand professing a religion then trying to change it to suit ones self.

Well, ERayR, I agree with you about living one's religion, as one sees it. I think that, more than knowing or believing, is the key.

It is in the nature of the True Believer, however, to recreate the whole world in his own image. When he sees something is out of order in his own estimation, he gets up off the fence and goes to work. That's what got Joseph Smith moving. Ever read his diaries? The kid already suspected the corruption of all existing churches before he took it up with the Lord. It bothered him enough that he did something about it. God works through the movers and shakers, not through those who sit down and shut up.

[pmccombs1]

The catholic church does have a vatican complete with its own bank. Very few people know what goes on in the vatican. Not so easy to penetrate. I am sure that the catholic church can be compared to a state within a state. And all states need to be run like a business. I would also assume that protestant religions also have a main office building where they can conduct the general church's business. We also need to remember that in the catholic faith, priests, bishops etc wear outer clothing identifying them and their position within the church. This is the same for the lutheran church etc.

But "like a business" is not the same as "as a business."

[volgadon]

But "like a business" is not the same as "as a business."

No, it means just that.

[KevinG]

Maybe it would! But that's not the point. I don't advocate that. I've said elsewhere that any worthwhile religion is neighborhood religion, and however our Church may be structured, let us try to be good neighbors and communities.

...and aside from a tower of accountants, computer programmers and business managers in Salt Lake City there is so much authority and service pushed out into the local Wards and Stakes as soon as boy can stand up straight on his 12th birthday we invest authority in him and have him go serve the community in which he lives.

Some critics need to get out of Salt Lake City and see the world of Mormonism.

[why me]

But "like a business" is not the same as "as a business."

It is one of interpretation. Most churches are run like businesses. How do you think that lutheran church is run? It has its headquarters as does the Methodist church etc. However, not many churches are as rich as the lds church. But the catholic church is certainly run like a business with its own banker, secretary of state etc. How should a church be run if not copying a business structure?

[Libs]

How is it that those sincere people that see something wonderful in Mormonism not able to understand that if they make the changes they are advocating it is then changed and is no longer that something remarkable?

This is a couple of pages back, but I'm reading through this thread and wanted to respond to this one.

Just because we find something wonderful about the LDS Church (and I do, along with many others who have some unorthodox views) doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or that there are not some dreadful errors, along side those "wonderful" parts. That is the real challenge for middle-wayers...who are, mostly, trying to embrace the "wonderful", without losing their integrity, regarding the things they find not so wonderful. It's a difficult balancing act, which I have not mastered...but, always admire those who have..

Edited August 11, 2012 by Libs

[KevinG]

When I identify things about Mormonism that I find not so wonderful I repent.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

So "Does the Mormon Church Encourage LDS People to Lie?" I'd say a big two thumbs down on Joanna Brooks's answer. And you?

Sure I get calls telling me I have lies (splits) with the missionaries .