Question For Non-Lds

[altersteve]

This question was posed in another thread, but I think it deserves its own discussion, so I'll expand my original post here.

The traditional Christian doctrine is that all non-Christians (i.e., all those who do not accept the gospel) will go to hell. Many people including myself find this troubling. What about someone who never got the chance to hear the gospel, much less accept it? Say there's a person lived 2,000 years ago in Australia when Jesus was going about doing good in Palestine; how can you expect him to have even heard Jesus' name? There's no way he could have. So instead of giving him a chance at all, God's just going to say, "Eh, not my problem," and send him to a place where he'll suffer for the rest of eternity? Yikes. That's not a very loving God at all. Or did He just forget about him? And what about children who die before they're old enough to accept the gospel? What happens to them?

I want to hear a straight-up answer, please. Please don't avoid the question.

[cesc101]

Ooops!

Limited space in heaven man...,

No room for everyone, lol

[Mudcat]

Hi Steve,

There are a number of views amongst non-LDS Christendom on the issue. I'll give you my thoughts on the topic.

The traditional Christian doctrine is that all non-Christians (i.e., all those who do not accept the gospel) will go to hell.

Many people including myself find this troubling.

I think you have stated the position fair enough and like you I find it troubling. IMO, this "troubling" itch behind the ear of traditional Christians is quite an impetus to spread the good news of Christ. I think non-LDS Christian Scripture is clear on the issue that there are many who will not be saved.

What about someone who never got the chance to hear the gospel, much less accept it?

Does such a person really exist? I used to ask myself this question that you ask, quite a lot. The fate of the "unevangalized" was quite perturbing to me. In retrospect, I have drawn the conclusion that I don't actually know how God has interacted with anyone other than myself.

Say there's a person lived 2,000 years ago in Australia when Jesus was going about doing good in Palestine; how can you expect him to have even heard Jesus' name? There's no way he could have. So instead of giving him a chance at all, God's just going to say, "Eh, not my problem," and send him to a place where he'll suffer for the rest of eternity?Yikes. That's not a very loving God at all. Or did He just forget about him?

Abraham was an Easterner who never heard the name of Christ, yet his faith in what God had given him was imputed to him as righteousness. I can't speak to what God presented or didn't present to the posed Austrailian, but neither can anyone else, I think.

And what about children who die before they're old enough to accept the gospel? What happens to them?

I think God's grace is upon them, but there are differing views on the topic.

I want to hear a straight-up answer, please. Please don't avoid the question.

Well that is pretty straight. Feel free to flesh out anything you need expansion upon.

God's delivered word, as I belieive, seems clear that there are many who will go to hell. I don't imagine that Jesus was kidding in his parables on the feast... many are called but few are chosen.

I wished it was otherwise, but people are generally crappy. I think Christians get bent out of shape from time to time. We seem to think that because we have chosen God, then it stands to reason that all will follow.. or would follow.

Regards,

Mudcat

Edited August 3, 2012 by Mudcat

[djholmess]

The traditional Christian doctrine is that all non-Christians (i.e., all those who do not accept the gospel) will go to hell. Many people including myself find this troubling. What about someone who never got the chance to hear the gospel, much less accept it?

I want to hear a straight-up answer, please. Please don't avoid the question.

I agree with much of what was said just above but let me put some more scripture to the explanation;

Your main focus of your problem with what Evangelicals would typically believe is ‘what about the person who hasn’t heard the gospel.’

The biblical response to this is that anyone who has never heard about Jesus won’t be punished because of their unbelief in Jesus, they will be judged by other criteria. What criteria?

Their response to creations revelation:

Romans 1:18-23

¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

¹⁹ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

²⁰ For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

²¹ Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

²² Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

²³ And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

So God has shown to all men certain things about His existence and His attributes that should lead them to glorify God and thank Him. All those who refuse to do this and have changed the glory of God for the glory of man or other things will be judged for these sins.

Their response to the work of the law on their heart – conscience

Romans 2:13-

¹³ (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

¹⁴ For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

¹⁵ Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The ESV is a little clearer on one point in verse 15

¹⁵ They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse

All men therefore have the work of the law written upon their hearts. They will be judged by how they lived in light of this.

Now I included verse 15 from the ESV to make it a little clearer that Paul makes a distinction between the two possible results of ‘witness of the conscience.’ Paul seems to expect the conscience to result in accusation but not an excuse – the excuse if a more distant possibility ‘there may even be a case where the conscience excuses. (see my next post about if this happens).

I agree with much of what was said just above but let me put some more scripture to the explaination;

[djholmess]

So everyone will be judged by what revelation they had; all have the revelation in creation, all have the work of the law on the heart and some have heard the gospel.

Now the next question rightly is does anyone bow down to God because of creation? And does anyone recognise their sinfulness because of their conscience convicting them and cry out to their creator for mercy.

In short, I think the picture Paul paints of the utter sinfulness of man, would lead us to the conclusion that this does not happen. Not because it is impossible and not because God is preventing such people from repenting but because mans hatred for God is so great that he will never bow to God apart from the power of the gospel.

In Romans 1:18-3:18 Paul is seeking to describe the nature of mans sinfulness, his conclusion is:

Romans 3:9-12

⁹for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

¹¹ There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

¹² They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Notice the link between glorifying God through the revelation in creation and ‘none seeketh after God’ – who glorifies God? No one

Also the link between the conscience leading to obeying the work of the law and ‘none that doeth good, no, not one.’ So who will be excused by their conscience? No one.

This is part of what has drove evangelical missions-man’s sinfulness is so great that without the power of the gospel they will go to hell because of their sinfulness. The gospel is the only means for sinners to be brought to repentance and faith.

[thews]

This question was posed in another thread, but I think it deserves its own discussion, so I'll expand my original post here.

The traditional Christian doctrine is that all non-Christians (i.e., all those who do not accept the gospel) will go to hell. Many people including myself find this troubling. What about someone who never got the chance to hear the gospel, much less accept it? Say there's a person lived 2,000 years ago in Australia when Jesus was going about doing good in Palestine; how can you expect him to have even heard Jesus' name? There's no way he could have. So instead of giving him a chance at all, God's just going to say, "Eh, not my problem," and send him to a place where he'll suffer for the rest of eternity? Yikes. That's not a very loving God at all. Or did He just forget about him? And what about children who die before they're old enough to accept the gospel? What happens to them?

I want to hear a straight-up answer, please. Please don't avoid the question.

I don't believe there's a "traditional" Christian template for who does or doesn't go to hell, but rather what it takes to be saved. If judgment is God's, then God defines who does or doesn't go to hell.

[Calm]

So God has shown to all men certain things about His existence and His attributes that should lead them to glorify God and thank Him.

So glorifying and thanking God is enough for God to grant him salvation? That native in the Amazon doesn't need to believe in certain biblical doctrines in order to go to heaven? Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[djholmess]

So glorifying and thanking God is enough for God to grant him salvation? That native in the Amazon doesn't need to believe in certain biblical doctrines in order to go to heaven?

The combination of recognising God through creation, recognising your own unworthiness before Him through the witness of your own conscience and looking to Him for mercy would be enough where no other revelation has been given. So just as Abraham did not know of Jesus and his work on the cross and yet has been saved by the Atonment of Christ so too could the Amazonian. However as I said in my second post Paul's description of the wickedness of the human heart doesn't suggest that anyone actually does this. Further from other scriptures I believe that only the power of the Holy Spirit working through the gospel can overcome the sinfulness of man and grant him repentance and faith.

So is it possible, I believe it is. Does it happen, I don't think so.

[Calm]

However as I said in my second post Paul's description of the wickedness of the human heart doesn't suggest that anyone actually does this

So God grants an out but makes sure there is no one capable of taking it.....hmmm.....

[Akboy]

First of all, keep in mind God is the all knowing, all powerful sovereign ruler of the world. Evangelism isn't a spectator sport for Him. He knows our hearts, in many ways better than we do. He knows if there is someone in some village who would be receptive to the gospel. Some form of predestination or election doctrines might help this make more sense.

Secondly, many critics of doctrines like these say something like 'A loving god would never do that.' Yes, God is a loving God, but that is only one of His many attributes. He is also a just and holy God. That means sin cannot exist in His presence and all sin must be paid for, either by the atonement or by the sinner. Another attribute (can't remember the name) means God can't do anything contrary to His nature. So He can't break His own rules just because we disagree with them or even think they're cruel.

[Calm]

He knows our hearts, in many ways better than we do.

Of course, since he created them.

Surely his love would have just as much influence on his decisions on who are condemned and who are saved as his justice and consistency do? He doesn't turn off his love and become wrathful instead, does he? But rather both attributes are in action at the same time and his choices are based on the combination of all his attributes, not just one of them at a time.

Especially since he is sovereign and therefore has made the rules, made the people and the conditions they live in including whether or not they get to learn of his gospel why wouldn't his infinite love have just as much priority as his desire for personal glory or justice?

Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[Akboy]

Of course, since he created them.

Surely his love would have just as much influence on his decisions on who are condemned and who are saved as his justice and consistency do? He doesn't turn off his love and become wrathful instead, does he? But rather both attributes are in action at the same time and his choices are based on the combination of all his attributes, not just one of them at a time.

Especially since he is sovereign and therefore has made the rules, made the people and the conditions they live in including whether or not they get to learn of his gospel why wouldn't his infinite love have just as much priority as his desire for personal glory or justice?

I didn't mean to make it sound like His wrath or holiness takes over in these issues. I was mainly responding to people who act like love is, or should be, His primary attribute. No, I think all of His attribute have equal priority and importance in everything He does.

Since He knows our hearts, He knows who would be receptive and who wouldn't. If someone in a village is open to the gospel in some way, they will hear it. Either they will find their way to someone with the gospel, or someone will go to the village and tell them about it. If nothing else, an angel could visit them in a dream or talk through their donkey or some other animal.

[Calm]

Since He knows our hearts, He knows who would be receptive and who wouldn't.

It is more than just knowing us, isn't it? Didn't he make us the way we are?

If nothing else, an angel could visit them in a dream or talk through their donkey or some other animal.

How often do you think this kind of stuff happens for those who live in nonChristian countries, including those who lived thousands of years ago? Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[djholmess]

It is more than just knowing us, isn't it? Didn't he make us the way we are?

In what sense do you mean? If you mean did he make us with hearts that hate him so much that everyone naturally rejects him then no. This hate and brokenness is a result of the fall. God didn't make Adam with a heart that hated God, Adam sinned and caused the human race to fall into sin.

[Calm]

When do you believe man's spirit to be created? Does it preexist the body or is it created by God after the body is given some form? When is the spirit placed in the body? As soon as it is created?

[Akboy]

It is more than just knowing us, isn't it? Didn't he make us the way we are?

I'm not sure what you're asking. What are you trying to get at?

How often do you think this kind of stuff happens for those who live in nonChristian countries, including those who lived thousands of years ago?

Most of those areas already have spiritual beliefs and mysticism of varying degrees. So someone claiming to get a vision about some god who came to save them probably wouldn't seem too out of the ordinary. I took a missionaries studies class in college and heard lots of stories. One I remember is about a missionary who got to some village that had never had a missionary before. They had no earthly way of knowing about Christ, yet one of the villagers asked the missionary right away if he was there to teach them about God. The villager recently had a dream that a strange man with a large book would arrive in the village to teach them. It's not quite a donkey talking to them, but that's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Akboy

[Akboy]

When do you believe man's spirit to be created? Does it preexist the body or is it created by God after the body is given some form? When is the spirit placed in the body? As soon as it is created?

I haven't seen anything in the Bible that suggests our spirit exists before our body is created. So what does that have to do with this issue? Edited August 3, 2012 by Akboy

[Calm]

Spirits would be uncontaminated by Adam's actions? Correct?

Why does God choose to create and place a pure spirit into a vessel he knows is sinful?

[djholmess]

Spirits would be uncontaminated by Adam's actions? Correct?

Why does God choose to create and place a pure spirit into a vessel he knows is sinful?

Incorrect. Evangelicals do not believe in a pre existence of uncontaminated spirits and so we do not divide man up into so clearly distinctive parts. The fall affected every aspect of man, mind, body, heart, soul, spirit, whatever choice of words used to describe what a person is-all of it was effected.

[coolrok7]

The verses quoted above from Romans is the answer to the dilemma.

A loving and just God will deal with all of us based on what we know, not what we don't know. To those of Romans 2, it is based on conscience and what one does with it.

This would be the time period prior to Jesus coming into the world and those post Jesus throughout the world until the message is brought to them. Either way It is God Who decides as He knows their heart as was acknowledged already.

Romans 1 says that they who give the knowledge of God up they have based on the creation and goes against that is no different than the one who hears of Jesus and does not follow through in faith to believe the Gospel message (John 3:16):

Romans 1:18-23

¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

¹⁹ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

²⁰ For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

²¹ Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

²² Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

²³ And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

This last line is observable throughout history in some the various religions of the world. Those that have the true Gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) will be sharing that message in which the Holy Spirit can bring conviction and repentance to them if their heart is willing (as not all will repent which will be the ones who are lost).

My point here is not to judge anyone but we do have Biblical warnings concerning false religion. We are responsible also to guard against this too.

[Calm]

Incorrect. Evangelicals do not believe in a pre existence of uncontaminated spirits and so we do not divide man up into so clearly distinctive parts. The fall affected every aspect of man, mind, body, heart, soul, spirit, whatever choice of words used to describe what a person is-all of it was effected.

I understand that you don't think spirits preexist, but if God creates them at the time of conception or birth or whatever, then why are they sinful unless he makes them that way? Why would the Fall affect something that did not exist at the time and is created out of nothing therefore has no connection to anything that is fallen?

How could Adam's sin affect the spirit if it hadn't been created yet? Is the spirit some sort of descendant from Adam's spirit like the body is a descendant of Adam's physical self? If not, how is it affected?

When the body dies, what happens to the spirit?

Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[djholmess]

I understand that you don't think spirits preexist, but if God creates them at the time of conception or birth or whatever, then why are they sinful unless he makes them that way? Why would the Fall affect something that did not exist at the time and is created out of nothing therefore has no connection to anything that is fallen?

How could Adam's sin affect the spirit if it hadn't been created yet? Is the spirit some sort of descendant from Adam's spirit like the body is a descendant of Adam's physical self? If not, how is it affected?

When the body dies, what happens to the spirit?

When the body dies the spirits of born again believers go to be with the lord - 2 Corinthians 5:

⁶ Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

⁷ (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

⁸ We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

As to the spirits of unsaved sinners, I'm not sure the bible gives too much specific information - probably the Hades mentioned in Revelation.

Why would the fall effect something that didn't exist? Well we both believe that it did. Don't you believe that your physical body didn't exist when Adam fell, and yet don't you believe that you were born with a fallen body?

Now what I suspect you are really getting at is 'why does God hold all mankind accountable and pass on the punishment to all mankind for the sins of one man?'

Why does God work this way - I'm not sure I know, but I do know he does and I am very glad he does. There are many examples of this in the OT (i can find some if you want) but Romans 5 lays out how it works in relation to Adam himself:

¹⁹ For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The one man's sin lead to all his offspring being made sinners, you may not like this idea and reject it. However I would call you to consistency because by one man's obedience shall men be made righteous. I doubt you have any problem with the concept that God can count you righteous based on the merits of another, of Jesus. Why then do you have a problem with God also counting mankind a sinner because of Adam?

If you say God can't work this way - by setting up creation in a way that all mankind suffer the result of Adam's sin, then it would seem very inconsistent to then believe he has set up salvation in a way that all mankind may be saved because of the result of Jesus righteousness.

[Calm]

Don't you believe that your physical body didn't exist when Adam fell, and yet don't you believe that you were born with a fallen body?

I believe the elements of my physical body already existed in a fallen world, I do not believe my physical body was created ex nihilo and then placed in my mother's womb.

Now what I suspect you are really getting at is 'why does God hold all mankind accountable and pass on the punishment to all mankind for the sins of one man?'

Absolutely not. My question is exactly what I was attempting to learn your reasoning on. Man's spirits are created ex nihilo, are they not? They did not exist at the time of Adam, they did not take part in his decision or any decision. They are brand new, never before existed spiritual beings. If so, then previous to being placed in the body, nothing of the spirit had any connection to Adam. I do not understand the reasoning behind God putting a pure spirit just created brand new into an impure body built out of elements from a fallen world. Why bother creating the pure spirit to only condemn it to a sinful body, thus forcing it to "fall" as well?

If the spirit exists without the body after death, it seems to me it can be said that it exists separate from the body at its time of creation and then is placed into the body prepared for it through the physical process of conception, etc. I have always heard Evangelicals discuss it this way, that God creates the spirit at the time of the creation of the body, possibly right at the time of conception, and then places the spirit within the body. If there is actually some different doctrine, then please direct me to it.

If you say God can't work this way - by setting up creation in a way that all mankind suffer the result of Adam's sin, then it would seem very inconsistent to then believe he has set up salvation in a way that all mankind may be saved because of the result of Jesus righteousness.

So you are not a Calvinist and you believe that all men have a chance to be saved, not just those few or many chosen by God? Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah

[djholmess]

I believe the elements of my physical body already existed in a fallen world, I do not believe my physical body was created ex nihilo and then placed in my mother's womb.

But before the fall were the elements of your body fallen, wern't they just elements 'out there floating around' (i'm not tring to be snark I don't know how else you would describe it), how were they connected to Adam so as to be tainted with the fall?

Absolutely not. My question is exactly what I was attempting to learn your reasoning on. Man's spirits are created ex nihilo, are they not? They did not exist at the time of Adam, they did not take part in his decision or any decision. They are brand new, never before existed spiritual beings. If so, then previous to being placed in the body, nothing of the spirit had any connection to Adam. I do not understand the reasoning behind God putting a pure spirit just created brand new into an impure body built out of elements from a fallen world. Why bother creating the pure spirit to only condemn it to a sinful body, thus forcing it to "fall" as well?

If the spirit exists without the body after death, it seems to me it can be said that it exists separate from the body at its time of creation and then is placed into the body prepared for it through the physical process of conception, etc. I have always heard Evangelicals discuss it this way, that God creates the spirit at the time of the creation of the body, possibly right at the time of conception, and then places the spirit within the body. If there is actually some different doctrine, then please direct me to it.

The only verse I know of in this context is Zechariah 12:1

The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

So yes God does form the spirit of man - though it doesn't specifically say at conception. Note however that it is formedh within man. It is not formed seperate from the body.

The Bible doesn't give the specifics about how Adam's fallen nature is passed onto man and so I don't know if there is much more I can explain specifically about the 'how' it works. But I do believe the Bible presents man fallen nature as complete - his heart, will, soul and so on are all fallen and they are all fallen as a result of Adam's fall.

One thing I would ask is; do you see all the particles of the world as fallen - so that when your body is made from fallen elements it is fallen because of what it is made from? - i'm not sure you were saying that but it sounded like you might have been

So you are not a Calvinist and you believe that all men have a chance to be saved, not just those few or many chosen by God?

I certainly am, I said 'may' be saved.

[Calm]

do you see all the particles of the world as fallen - so that when your body is made from fallen elements it is fallen because of what it is made from? - i'm not sure you were saying that but it sounded like you might have been

Yep, the world itself is mortal, fallen and therefore all its elements including those that cycle in and out of human bodies partake of that nature.

Thank you for explaining your position.

Edited August 3, 2012 by calmoriah