What Is The New Testament Definition Of "Christian"

[djholmess]

Can you show me where it is a requirement for a false prophet to claim to be a prophet?

The two verses I quoted above, Deuteronomy 13 & 18 specifically give tests for someone claiming to be a false prophet. Other parts of the Bible deal with people who teach false doctrines but they are referred to as false teachers not false prophets. There is a difference between saying 'X is true' (potential false teacher) and saying 'God has told me to tell you he says X is true'.

A false prophet would be someone claiming to be a prophet or claiming the role of a prophet; directly speaking in behalf of God. A false teacher would be someone who simply teaches others things about God that are not true.

Edited August 20, 2012 by djholmess

[ERayR]

However 1) I derive my theology from the Bible not men

Where did you get a Bible that was not translated by men? Where do you find a church that didn't preach a theology that isn't the interpretation of the Bible that was translated by men? You see you get into a very paradoxical situation when you say you don't derive your theology from men yet use a source that has passed through translations and interpretations of men.

[ERayR]

I would agree that determining who is a Christian to the satisfaction of everyone (will probably never happen this side of eternity) is often debated, but that doesn’t mean one can’t come to a proper conclusion (Biblically speaking) even though some will disagree.

I personally believe that there is only one person who needs to be satisfied as to who is a Christian and who is not. I also believe that he does not smile too kindly on those who attempt to limit another's access.

[ERayR]

The two verses I quoted above, Deuteronomy 13 & 18 specifically give tests for someone claiming to be a false prophet. Other parts of the Bible deal with people who teach false doctrines but they are referred to as false teachers not false prophets. There is a difference between saying 'X is true' (potential false teacher) and saying 'God has told me to tell you he says X is true'.

A false prophet would be someone claiming to be a prophet or claiming the role of a prophet; directly speaking in behalf of God. A false teacher would be someone who simply teaches others things about God that are not true.

So let me get this right A false prophet is someone who claims to be a prophet, therefore anyone who claims to be a prophet must be a false prophet. Is this correct? I can see a logical fallacy in that reasoning. Can you?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So let me get this right A false prophet is someone who claims to be a prophet, therefore anyone who claims to be a prophet must be a false prophet. Is this correct? I can see a logical fallacy in that reasoning. Can you?

I think he is trying to give a difference between false teacher and false prophet. Not prophets in general.

The only issue I have is that a false prophet need not claim to be a prophet.

[djholmess]

I think he is trying to give a difference between false teacher and false prophet. Not prophets in general.

Exactly

The only issue I have is that a false prophet need not claim to be a prophet.

I agree, I would class someone who says something like, "God has given me this message to you...." or "God has said to me that X is going to happen" as someone who was trying to speak as a prophet-even if they didn't claim the title 'prophet' for themselves.

[zerinus]

I agree, I would class someone who says something like, "God has given me this message to you...." or "God has said to me that X is going to happen" as someone who was trying to speak as a prophet-even if they didn't claim the title 'prophet' for themselves.

Anybody who preaches that if you don't do this or that you will go to hell, or if you do this and that you will be damned, or if you do something else you will do to heaven and be saved, is acting the role of a prophet; and there are many pastors and religious ministers of various Christian denominations who do just that.

[djholmess]

Anybody who preaches that if you don't do this or that you will go to hell, or if you do this and that you will be damned, or if you do something else you will do to heaven and be saved, is acting the role of a prophet; and there are many pastors and religious ministers of various Christian denominations who do just that.

Well I see a very large difference between someone claiming to receive revelation directly from God that they are to teach to others and pastors/ministers who say 'this is the message of the Bible'. The former I would call false prophets if they proved to be wrong, the latter would be false teachers.

I can't speak for all pastors but is my experience that pastors will say & have the view that 'if what I'm saying faithfully reflects the message of the Bible passage I'm preaching on, then my message comes with the authority of the word of God but if what I'm saying isn't there then don't believe it.'

Pastors are teaching and explaining revelation God has already given, prophets are giving new revelation.

Edited August 20, 2012 by djholmess

[altersteve]

Well I see a very large difference between someone claiming to receive revelation directly from God that they are to teach to others and pastors/ministers who say 'this is the message of the Bible'.

So pastors/ministers don't believe they were called by God to teach others? If not then why do they do it? What gives them that authority?

[Vance]

The two verses I quoted above, Deuteronomy 13 & 18 specifically give tests for someone claiming to be a false prophet.

??????

If someone is claiming to be a false prophet do we really need to go any further?

This is still non-responsive to my question, which is, "Can you show me where it is a requirement for a false prophet to claim to be a prophet?"

Other parts of the Bible deal with people who teach false doctrines but they are referred to as false teachers not false prophets.

This, still, is non-responsive.

There is a difference between saying 'X is true' (potential false teacher) and saying 'God has told me to tell you he says X is true'.

And neither one needs to claim they are a "prophet".

Soooo, this is still non-responsive.

A false prophet would be someone claiming to be a prophet or claiming the role of a prophet; directly speaking in behalf of God.

Ok, so now your are moving the goal posts.

What you are saying is that they don't really have to claim to be a "prophet", but only need to claim to be "speaking in behalf of God."

How about simply implying to speak for God? I hear Evangelical preachers doing that all the time.

Even you have done it in this thread, by claiming that Mormons are not Christians. By doing so you are implying that you are "speaking in behalf of God".

A false teacher would be someone who simply teaches others things about God that are not true.

Sorry, but that really isn't a discriminator between a false teacher and a false prophet. Both do that.

[Zakuska]

Anybody who preaches that if you don't do this or that you will go to hell, or if you do this and that you will be damned, or if you do something else you will do to heaven and be saved, is acting the role of a prophet; and there are many pastors and religious ministers of various Christian denominations who do just that.

They are also saying that works can effect ones salvation.

[Vance]

I can't speak for all pastors but is my experience that pastors will say & have the view that 'if what I'm saying faithfully reflects the message of the Bible passage I'm preaching on, then my message comes with the authority of the word of God but if what I'm saying isn't there then don't believe it.'

Ok, so someone who claims that the Thief went to heaven to support their doctrine, when in fact, the Bible clearly does NOT teach that the Thief went to heaven, they are not a false prophet but rather a false teacher.

How are the results different?

Edited August 20, 2012 by Vance

[zerinus]

Well I see a very large difference between someone claiming to receive revelation directly from God that they are to teach to others and pastors/ministers who say 'this is the message of the Bible'. The former I would call false prophets if they proved to be wrong, the latter would be false teachers.

I can't speak for all pastors but is my experience that pastors will say & have the view that 'if what I'm saying faithfully reflects the message of the Bible passage I'm preaching on, then my message comes with the authority of the word of God but if what I'm saying isn't there then don't believe it.'

Pastors are teaching and explaining revelation God has already given, prophets are giving new revelation.

They pretend to speak in the name of the Lord, or on His behalf, invoking His name, which they have no authority to do, because He has not sent them:

D&C 63:

61 Wherefore, let all men beware how they take my name in their lips—

62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.

They are modern day equivalents of false prophets.

[Vance]

It kind of reminds me of this,

Matt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Is teaching the falsehood that the Thief went to heaven a good fruit?

[Zakuska]

Matt 7:28

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

I wonder why they were "astonished" at his doctrine? Could it be that he was teaching them things that... <GASP> weren't in the Bible?

OH... the Humanity!!!

[Mudcat]

I wonder why they were "astonished" at his doctrine? Could it be that he was teaching them things that... <GASP> weren't in the Bible?

OH... the Humanity!!!

I'd put my money on "For he taught them as one having authority" as the cause of astonishment.

[Glenn101]

Glenn,

You wrote:

Perhaps we're not talking about the same thing. What about people who are following false prophets and who mistakenly think that by doing so they are striving to follow Christ?

Which false prophets are you talking about. Luther, Calvin, John Knox, John Wesley? or the founders of the 30,000 some other Christian denominations? When you try to eliminate a person from being a Christian by making your own definitiona, you are straying from the Bible. Jesus was the one who narrowed the definition.

Glenn

[Rob Bowman]

Glenn,

You wrote:

Which false prophets are you talking about. Luther, Calvin, John Knox, John Wesley? or the founders of the 30,000 some other Christian denominations?

I consider the above an attempt at cleverness, not an actual serious argument.

You wrote:

When you try to eliminate a person from being a Christian by making your own definitiona, you are straying from the Bible. Jesus was the one who narrowed the definition.

You're not even close to understanding what I am trying to do.

[ERayR]

Glenn,

You wrote:

You're not even close to understanding what I am trying to do.

It would help if you were a little more transparent in your motives. It is some times hard to tell especially for those of us who have failed at clairvoyance.

[djholmess]

They pretend to speak in the name of the Lord, or on His behalf, invoking His name, which they have no authority to do, because He has not sent them:

I guess I mistakenly thought we would at least share a somewhat similar defination of what a prophet is compared to a teacher. As I said above, but to be clear, my understanding of a prophet is someone who claims to brings new and direct revelation from God. So we see such statements as 'Thus saith the Lord...' on the lip of OT prophets who then go on to give a message that they have recieved directly from God. Similarily JS regularily claimed to be speaking direct revelations given to his by Jesus e.g. D&C 84:1 'A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith....'

I have visited a number of different evangelical church/denominations and have many friends from different denominations and I have never heard of a pastor/minister claiming to have new revelation from God. Pastors/teachers are rather men who are called to teach and explain the scriptures to their churches. They do not seek to teach new revelation but rather explain the revelation that God has already given.

If the above is not similar to how LDS see the the functional difference between prophets compared to people who teach/lead local gatherings e.g. a ward Bishop?

[altersteve]

Pastors/teachers are rather men who are called to teach and explain the scriptures to their churches.

How is this calling received?

[djholmess]

How is this calling received?

There is no checklist about how this calling is recieved/confirmed but generally there are three things that should be met;

1) The man should apsire to be an elder/pastor. So it should be something he feels God is leading him towards and something God has gifed him to be able to do. Discerning both of these is typically done within the context of a local congregation - e.g others who know the man can encourage him that he has been giifted with gifts relating to teaching/wisdom/leadership (or discourage).

2) The man meets the qualifications set out by the NT for elders.

3) The man is approved and appointed as an elder by the other elders over the congregation.

Obviously there is some difference between denominations about how this is all carried out but I believe the above is the biblical presentation of how elders are to be appointed.

What do you see as the difference between a biblcial Prophet and a ward Bishop or teacher regarding their roles in how they present Gods truth?

Edited August 21, 2012 by djholmess

[altersteve]

There is no checklist about how this calling is recieved/confirmed but generally there are three things that should be met;

1) The man should apsire to be an elder/pastor. So it should be something he feels God is leading him towards and something God has gifed him to be able to do. Discerning both of these is typically done within the context of a local congregation - e.g others who know the man can encourage him that he has been giifted with gifts relating to teaching/wisdom/leadership (or discourage).

2) The man meets the qualifications set out by the NT for elders.

3) The man is approved and appointed as an elder by the other elders over the congregation.

Obviously there is some difference between denominations about how this is all carried out but I believe the above is the biblical presentation of how elders are to be appointed.

So then this "gift" is not given to him by the laying on of hands like it was in the days of Timothy (see 2 Timothy 1:6). Why is that? Also, why does it have to be a man, and how is that not completely inconsistent with what you said here about the priesthood being given to both men and women?

What do you see as the difference between a biblcial Prophet and a ward Bishop or teacher regarding their roles in how they present Gods truth?

A prophet reveals God's will to the entire world, while a bishop reveals God's will only to the ward he presides over.

Edited August 21, 2012 by altersteve

[djholmess]

So then this "gift" is not given to him by the laying on of hands like it was in the days of Timothy (see 2 Timothy 1:6). Why is that? Also, why does it have to be a man, and how is that not completely inconsistent with what you said here about the priesthood being given to both men and women?

Where does it say in 2 Timothy 1:6 that the gift was Timothy being an elder?

If you are referring to my post #24 in that thread go back and read it. I clearly made a distinction between elders and priests. Elders are not the continuation/replacement of the priestly class of Israel.

So whilst all believers are made into priests of God one of the NT qualifications for eldership is that the person be a man. There is no inconsistency because we are talking about two different things.

A prophet reveals God's will to the entire world, while a bishop reveals God's will only to the ward he presides over.

Ok, so are you saying a Bishop comes to know the will of God he is to reveal in the same way as a prophet does? Do LDS Bishops receive new revelations from God which they are to speak to the wards they presides over?

Edited August 21, 2012 by djholmess

[altersteve]

Where does it say in 2 Timothy 1:6 that the gift was Timothy being an elder?

It simply says that the gift of God is inside each person by the laying on of hands. It seems to me to be saying that all the gifts of God are given this way.

If you are referring to my post #24 in that thread go back and read it. I clearly made a distinction between elders and priests. Elders are not the continuation/replacement of the priestly class of Israel.

So whilst all believers are made into priests of God one of the NT qualifications for eldership is that the person be a man. There is no inconsistency because we are talking about two different things.

Exactly. We are talking about two completely different things. That's why I think you should learn a bit more about the LDS doctrine of priesthood before we continue talking about this. It's a very important aspect of the Church and it has to do with a lot more than just "the continuation/replacement of the priestly class of Israel."

Ok, so are you saying a Bishop comes to know the will of God he is to reveal in the same way as a prophet does? Do LDS Bishops receive new revelations from God which they are to speak to the wards they presides over?

Yes, a bishop comes to know the will of God the same way a prophet does, and the same way the rest of us do: by revelation. And yes, a bishop can (and does) receive revelation from God on how to lead the ward they preside over.

Edited August 21, 2012 by altersteve