What Is The New Testament Definition Of "Christian"

[Darren10]

Akboy;

For as long as I can remember, the Holy Spirit has been emphasized as a guide in following God and life in general, and prayer has always been the primary way to access that guidance. We may not use the same terms as you, but the concept is very much there. So why aren't we all in the LDS church? The Holy Spirit is here to teach us all things, and we're asking Him for guidance, yet He's leaving out key aspects of the gospel that your church teaches? Why isn't the Holy Spirit teaching us all things?

If you're forcing the question my forced answer would be that it has more to do with you than it does with God. This same question can be asked by an atheist who prays sincerely about becoming a Christian and receives a "no" answer. Is the Holy Spirit not teaching all things? I say sure He is but that does not mean the recipient will receive all the truth he or she should. I cannot determine for certainty as to why the Holy Spirit does not confirm the truthfulness of the restored gospel of the Son of God on earth through Joseph Smith but I can and will tell you that the Holy Spirit has told me abundantly that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's true church on the earth and contains the everlasting gospel complete with the covenants necessary for exaltation and the priesthood authority to administer those covenants on earth.

The problem is we are fallen humans fighting against our sin nature.

I completely agree:

"For the ^anatural ^bman is an ^cenemy to God, and has been from the ^dfall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he ^eyields to the enticings of the Holy ^fSpirit, and ^gputteth off the ^hnatural man and becometh a ⁱsaint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a ^jchild, ^ksubmissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

(Mosiah 3:19)

We think the foundation of our faith is far too important to leave it up to something as subjective as prayer.

I would agree:

"

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how ^amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ^bponder it in your ^chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ^aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not ^btrue; and if ye shall ask with a ^csincere heart, with ^dreal intent, having ^efaith in Christ, he will ^fmanifest the ^gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may ^aknow the ^btruth of all things."

(Moroni 10 - Bold mine)

Maybe it was an answer from God? So maybe God lied to me? I prayed and asked if some major passages in the BoM were true. If the answer was 'No,' then wouldn't that be a lie?

I would disagree with you on God lyng to you:

"5 And there came a ^avoice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are ^bforgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.

6 And I, Enos, knew that God ^acould not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away."

(Enos 1 - Bold mine)

Likewise, people have been Christian and then have decided that the tenets of that faith are lies. It's a matter of listening to the Spirit and trusting the Lord. If you honestly and sincerely think that the Lord told you that the Book of Mormon is false or that aspects of it are false than here's my counsel: "11 We claim the ^aprivilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the ^bdictates of our own ^cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them ^dworship how, where, or what they may." (Articles of Faith - bold mine). It is God's will that you be free to pursue Him according to the dictates of your own conscience. This belief is firmly rooted in LDS doctrine. But, like thews, if you ever care to attend an LDS worship service and are in the Houston area, let ne know. I'd love to sit next to you.

Yet it was my fault for not being sincere?

There's absolutely no way for anyone to determine that as far as I'm concerned. This is a matter between you and God. Do what you honestly and sincerely think and feel is the right thing to do.

If you pray long enough while searching for a sign, you will receive a sign, but that doesn't mean it's from God.

Thus it's a good thing nobody here has ever encouraged you to receive a sign; but rather to hear the voice of God directly to your soul ("soul" meaning the mind and spirit).

I'm responsible? If the Holy Spirit's role is to teach us all things, then isn't it His responsibility to answer us when we ask a sincere question?

Yes, you're responsible. The Holy Spirit *does* teach truth. This does not mean that a human being will always receive that truth. You know Jesus is the Son of God, correct? Did you come to that conclusion just by reading the Bible? Did you come to that conclusion just by prayer? Or did you come to that conclusion by doing both? I would hope the latter is true. For those blessed to have a sudden, "unexplainable" epiphany gfrom God, I would hope that God's word would reafirm that insight if it were true. God can and does do His part always. The only variable between man and God is man. Man is a creature who will not always do his part. But man is responsible to continue to come closer to the Father through the Son and Holy Spirit.

It wouldn't change anything if God lied to one of us?

This thread has NOTHING TO DO with *God lying* so please drop this line of argument. I've seen it a dozen times on other sites when posters start using the lying card. It gets ugly for it's purely emotional, not rational thinking. As I said before, *nobody* here has purported God would be "lying" if your conclusion is that God told you the LDS Church is not true.

There's a difference. I've never heard a sermon about how the Trinity helps us in our daily life. It's not a doctrine that directly impacts how we follow Christ. But this issue of prayer is much bigger. It's a huge part of how you know which faith to follow.

First, the "Holy Trinity" doctrine is precisely what you are aguing when you preach that the oness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit means a oness numerically. There is nothing unbiblical about saying that their oness is that of unity. Now, let me interject something from bluebell's comment to which you were responding because I think I know what she was trying to say. It dumbfounds me as well when trinitarian Christians reject and/or outright oppose the LDS admonishment to let the Holy Spirit guide them as to te truthfulness of the LDS Church. Trinitarians avidly preach that the Holy Spirit is he same in being as the Father and the Son. Thus, by not allowing the Holy Spirit to guide a trinitarian believer, the believer is thus rejecting God Himself as a being. When a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints admonishes themselves or others to open up to the Holy Spirt, that Saint is not referring to a demon, false, spirit, or to the idea that God may "lie" to that individual yet these are common arguments I have seen from trinitarian believers resistent to the LDS admonishment. It's simply unbelievable for anyone who proclaims the Holy Trinity to do such a thing.

Second, the Holy Trinity is precisely what has become the "core" of traditional Christianity. I've seen numerous examples of the Holy Trinity cited as what distinguishes Christianity from all other faiths. Despite the fact that traditional Christians believe that revelation is closed and thus the only revealed word of God is the Bible , "Holy Trinity" is not found in the Bible yet it is what Christians behold themselves to when identifying themselves as Christians. Mormons identify themselves as Christians because they believe in Jesus Christ. Even here on this thread you have many times denounced Mormons as Christians because they do not believe in Jesus Christ under the dictates of the Holy Trinity creeds (the trinitarian formula). Despite these creeds being post biblical, these are upoheld as if they themselves are the core doctrines of Jesus Christ. It's simply unbelievable.

I think a good example of this is James 2. I've heard quite a few LDS say that chapter says we need faith plus works, but I think that misses what the chapter says about faith. Faith without works is dead. If you're having to add works to your faith, then your problem is with your faith, not your lack of works. If your faith is dead, it doesn't matter what you add to it, the faith will still be dead. But if your faith is living, then the works will take care of themselves. This is what the Pharisees didn't understand. They focused so much on getting their works perfect that they neglected their faith. They looked faithful, but they were white washed tombs. Their faith was dead at the core.

Here's a part of James 2 that I like:

"18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2 - Bold mine). How is faith shown? I do not recall James 2 teaching tha "if you have to add works...". Also, how was Abraham "justified" (found without guilt)? "

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that ^afaith without ^bworks is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father ^ajustified by works, when he had ^boffered Isaac his son upon the altar?". (Bold mine)

Edited August 6, 2012 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Do you admit, then, that someone who does not believe in the Trinity can still be a Christian?

Good question. In fact, I'd say it's not biblical doctrine and thus it is only a belief as to what the biblical doctrine teaches. And "beliefs" are naturally subject to change.

[Akboy]

The Holy Ghost does not have the "responsibility" to answer us. He answers us when and if it is appropriate, and only on the Father's terms. He doesn't owe us anything.

Like I told bluebell, I talked to LDS missionaries who asked me to read some important passages in the BoM, including Moroni 10:4-5, and pray that prayer. So I did, sincerely asking God if it was true. I still didn't understand some issues, but I've been wrong before and I could have been wrong about this. But nothing happened. I didn't get a witness of anything.

I thought the whole purpose of coming to earth is to be tested and prove ourselves worthy. If that's true, then why wouldn't God tell me? Why would God deny me the chance to prove myself by not giving me a witness of the full gospel? What makes you so special that you get the full gospel and I don't?

If I was taking a class and the teacher told me I needed to improve my grade to pass, I would be willing to do that. It might hurt my pride a bit redoing some basic stuff and I probably wouldn't like the work, but I would still do it so I could pass. But how am I supposed to do it when the teacher isn't giving me any info? I asked him about it, and he didn't say anything about how to do better or what areas I need to work on. Then what's the point of being in the class at all? If the teacher really wants me to prove myself in this subject and pass, why isn't he helping me? Isn't that his job? Would you really blame the student in this case?

[djholmess]

What does Paul say in Romans 14?

One "beleives" they can eat meat and another "believes" that it doesn't matter.

One "beleives" we have to worship on one day and one "beleives" other wise.

What does he conclude? He concludes the lesson that you continually are overlooking.

WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE ANOTHER MANS(ie The Lords) SERVANT?!

None of these "observances" and "beleifs" matter because we are ALL the Lords servants.

Another Parable that might teach you something... IF it doesn't go in one ear and out the other would be that of the servants.

You would be that servant that starts railing on the other servants claiming they are doing things the wrong way and not pulling their weight. And we all know what the Lord told him.

Once again you have mishandled a NT text very badly. Who is Paul's audience in the book of Romans? Romans 1:7

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul's audience are those loved by God and called to be saints-believers. Everyone being talked to in Romans 14 are believers, they have the same Master, Christ.

I am not railing you because whilst being loved by God you believe some things wrong. I am saying you follow a false prophet and therefore do not know or follow the Master of Romans 14. The chapter only applies to those who are followers of Christ.

In your response to my belief that you aren't a follower of Chirst you have assumed you are (rather than demonstrate it) and then falsely applied a verse talking about how followers are to treat each other to yourself.

I'll take it from your above response as well that you now don't think Romans 14 is talking about false prophets

[altersteve]

Like I told bluebell, I talked to LDS missionaries who asked me to read some important passages in the BoM, including Moroni 10:4-5, and pray that prayer. So I did, sincerely asking God if it was true. I still didn't understand some issues, but I've been wrong before and I could have been wrong about this. But nothing happened. I didn't get a witness of anything.

I thought the whole purpose of coming to earth is to be tested and prove ourselves worthy. If that's true, then why wouldn't God tell me? Why would God deny me the chance to prove myself by not giving me a witness of the full gospel? What makes you so special that you get the full gospel and I don't?

If I was taking a class and the teacher told me I needed to improve my grade to pass, I would be willing to do that. It might hurt my pride a bit redoing some basic stuff and I probably wouldn't like the work, but I would still do it so I could pass. But how am I supposed to do it when the teacher isn't giving me any info? I asked him about it, and he didn't say anything about how to do better or what areas I need to work on. Then what's the point of being in the class at all? If the teacher really wants me to prove myself in this subject and pass, why isn't he helping me? Isn't that his job? Would you really blame the student in this case?

I'm not blaming you for anything. Maybe God didn't answer you because He has something else in mind for you right now. Maybe He doesn't think it's time for you to join the Church. Perhaps there are some things He wants you to do or learn first. I can't say for sure, though, because it's something between you and Him that I have no right being involved in. All I know is that God knows what's best for you and everyone else. He knows what He's doing. I'm sure you would agree with me on that.

[Storm Rider]

The role and actions of the Holy Spirit are seldom understood. We see where some Christians believe that the Holy Spirit, if one is listening, will lead everyone, everywhere into the fulness of the truth. Obviously, that is not happening in the world; does that mean the Holy Spirit is not active in the lives of everyone; that people cannot hear him; or does it mean that the Holy Spirit is leading people in different paths?

One of the few irrevocable gifts of God is the free agency of humanity. Each is allowed to follow the dictates of his/her own concious desire. We believe that God is author of all truth and that he gives truth to the degree one is prepared to live it. The children of Israel proved incapable of living the higher law and thus were saddled with the Law of Moses to guide their every step and action. We have a cacophony of relgions on the earth and each teaches differing degrees of truth and each has adherents that believe firmly in thier chosen path. Is God guiding them? Of course he is. Does God want them to stop seeking for truth? Of course not; his desire is that we all come to a full undestanding of all truth and that we are one with him as Jesus is one with him.

We are promised in Ephesians 4:11-15:

11 And he

gave

some,

apostles

; and some,

prophets

; and some,

evangelists

; and some,

pastors

and

teachers

;

12 For the

perfecting

of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the

edifying

of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the

unity

of the faith, and of the

knowledge

of the Son of God, unto a

perfect

man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more

children

, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of

doctrine

, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the

truth

in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the

head

, even Christ:

that we will come to a unity of the faith - Who will come to a unity of the faith? Those that follow the apostels, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

There will be a unity of faith and what? - a knowledge of the Son of God. What knowledge of him? That he was a perfect man and to fulness of Christ.

Why are these offices in the priesthood needed? That we are not blown by a myriad of teachings on the same topic. That there is truth and they may guide us in the Way.

How is truth taught? This is very important: it is taught by speaking in love to our fellow man that they may also mature in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Who are the followers of Jesus? All those who seek truth. It is a journey with many differing degrees of knowledge along the path to Him. Some will come to a faith in God without knowing the Son. All who continue to seek truth will come to know Jesus as the Son of God; that he was perfect and a member of the Godhead; our Savior and Intermediary to the Father.

[djholmess]

Do you admit, then, that someone who does not believe in the Trinity can still be a Christian?

No one has said that if you don't believe the trinity you can't be a Christian. But that doesn't mean you can believe anything about who God is and I would still accept you as a Christian. If Richard Dawkins was to suddenly decide that his flying spaghetti monster was called Jesus I wouldn't accept that he was now a Christian-his concept of God would be to far from the biblical one for me to entertain the idea.

Similarily I as I have said in earlier posts the LDS concept of God is so far away from the Biblical one (summarised by the trinity) as to make it impossible for me to think anyone who truly believes LDS doctrine knows the one true God.

[Akboy]

I would agree:

"

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how ^amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ^bponder it in your ^chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ^aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not ^btrue; and if ye shall ask with a ^csincere heart, with ^dreal intent, having ^efaith in Christ, he will ^fmanifest the ^gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may ^aknow the ^btruth of all things."

(Moroni 10 - Bold mine)

What? You say you agree that faith is far too important to leave it up to something as subjective as prayer. Yet you quote a passage that talks about testing a faith, a belief system by praying about it? Yes, I've read those verses quite a few times.

This thread has NOTHING TO DO with *God lying* so please drop this line of argument. I've seen it a dozen times on other sites when posters start using the lying card. It gets ugly for it's purely emotional, not rational thinking. As I said before, *nobody* here has purported God would be "lying" if your conclusion is that God told you the LDS Church is not true.

What am I supposed to think? You receive a witness that the LDS Church is true and I receive a witness that the LDS Church is NOT true, and both witnesses are correct? Can the LDS Church be both true and not true at the same time?

Yes, you're responsible. The Holy Spirit *does* teach truth. This does not mean that a human being will always receive that truth. You know Jesus is the Son of God, correct? Did you come to that conclusion just by reading the Bible? Did you come to that conclusion just by prayer? Or did you come to that conclusion by doing both? I would hope the latter is true. For those blessed to have a sudden, "unexplainable" epiphany gfrom God, I would hope that God's word would reafirm that insight if it were true. God can and does do His part always. The only variable between man and God is man. Man is a creature who will not always do his part. But man is responsible to continue to come closer to the Father through the Son and Holy Spirit.

Refer to post #528. Edited August 6, 2012 by Akboy

[altersteve]

No one has said that if you don't believe the trinity you can't be a Christian. But that doesn't mean you can believe anything about who God is and I would still accept you as a Christian. If Richard Dawkins was to suddenly decide that his flying spaghetti monster was called Jesus I wouldn't accept that he was now a Christian-his concept of God would be to far from the biblical one for me to entertain the idea.

Similarily I as I have said in earlier posts the LDS concept of God is so far away from the Biblical one (summarised by the trinity) as to make it impossible for me to think anyone who truly believes LDS doctrine knows the one true God.

What is it about my understanding of God that prevents His grace from saving me? I also think your concept of God is far from the biblical teaching, but I still think you know the one true God, regardless of any misunderstandings you may have. Why can't you do the same?

[djholmess]

As your link points out, "monogenes" does not nessesarily mean "one and only" though I unsderstand how that may be "*one manner* to ttranslate the word from the Greek into English, so is "only begotten". The big difference is the direct connotation of "one and only son". Go to anyone and say "Jesus is God's 'one and only son'" and naturally the recipient ofthat message will conclude, according ot your words, that there are no other sons to God except Jesus. Tell that smae person "Jesus is Gods only begotten son in the flesh" and the person may conclude, according to your words, that there can be other sons butthat the sonship of Jesus was unique (again ,your link addresses this at to some detail). If fact the The Book of Mormon has no problem calling Jesus the Father in part for Jesus' unique earthly sonship to the Father:

The article was actually saying that the second Greek word 'genes' carries a different meaning than beget-the translators of the KJV thought genes was derived from a word that meant beget but they were mistaken. So beget isn't the proper translation even though it may still carry some of the intended meaning of one and only.

And this is the whole point. Jesus is the one and only Son of God, he is unique, one of a kind in existence. When you say 'only begotten in the flesh' you wrongly hold out the possibility that there are other sons like Jesus out there.

BTW where do LDS get only begotten 'in the flesh' from because that is not in John 3:16 and that is not what it is talking about.

[djholmess]

What is it about my understanding of God that prevents His grace from saving me? I also think your concept of God is far from the biblical teaching, but I still think you know the one true God, regardless of any misunderstandings you may have. Why can't you do the same?

Why can't I do the same? Because I see a clear biblical principle that there will be people who think they have followed Jeses, even calling him Lord and working spiritual miracles for him, who have been decieved and will be sent to hell.

Matthew 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As a Christian I believe I am called to speak the truth in love. I believe it would be false for me to tell you I think you are a Christian and I believe it would be unloving for me to cry safety, safety, when the wrath of God may remain on you.

I have already given a list of things I think LDS believe that disqualify me from accepting that they truly are Christians and explained two of them so far, 1) you minsunderstand who Jesusmclaimed to be, 2) you follow a false prophet.

[djholmess]

Jesus' application was not upno a believer but upon those who were ready to stone the Son of Man for blasphemy. The Jewstook offense of Jesus saying He was one with the Father. Now, how were these Jews "gods", becase they were "children of the most High".

Clearly God has more than a "one and only son".

I disagree with your intrepretation of Psalm 82, I believe the first verses in the Psalm layout why the people in the Psalm are called gods. But accepting your argument are you then saying that the Jews who were going to stone Jesus were actual gods?

[altersteve]

I have already given a list of things I think LDS believe that disqualify me from accepting that they truly are Christians and explained two of them so far, 1) you minsunderstand who Jesusmclaimed to be, 2) you follow a false prophet.

I think I understand perfectly who Jesus claimed to be: God. But you didn't answer my question. What specifically about my beliefs about God prevent His grace from saving me?

[Akboy]

I think I understand perfectly who Jesus claimed to be: God. But you didn't answer my question. What specifically about my beliefs about God prevent His grace from saving me?

Could you briefly explain your beliefs about grace? As you've pointed out multiple times, you disagree with multiple things LDS prophets have said. I would be glad to answer your question if I knew what you believe about grace.

What do you believe 'saved' means?

How do you believe grace works in relation to salvation?

[Darren10]

Akboy #528;

What makes you so special that you get the full gospel and I don't?

Huh? What makes you think that you're saved and Mormons are damned? There is no LDS here who thinks he or she is "special" above others yet you have decisively concluded that Mormons follow a false prophet and wrong Jesus and thus are damned. Why are you so "special"?

Nobody here can tell you why God didn't speak to you. But as for myself I cannot, nor will not deny the spiritual manifestation s in my life to verify the truthfulness of the Book of mormon, Joseph Smith, and the restored gospel.

[Darren10]

akboy;

If I was taking a class and the teacher told me I needed to improve my grade to pass, I would be willing to do that. It might hurt my pride a bit redoing some basic stuff and I probably wouldn't like the work, but I would still do it so I could pass. But how am I supposed to do it when the teacher isn't giving me any info? I asked him about it, and he didn't say anything about how to do better or what areas I need to work on. Then what's the point of being in the class at all? If the teacher really wants me to prove myself in this subject and pass, why isn't he helping me? Isn't that his job? Would you really blame the student in this case?

The best advise I can give you is to sincerely read and ponder the Book of Mormon. When you sincerely accept the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon then ask God the Father in the name of the Son if it is true. My guess is tha this is how you came to know the truthfulness ofthe bible and of Christianity as a whole.

[Darren10]

djholmes #523;

No one has said that if you don't believe the trinity you can't be a Christian

Really? Holy Trinity (bold mine):

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the SonUncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the fact that the LDS rejects this declared nature of the Godhead does not in and of itself make Mormons unchristian? Is that what you are saying?

Similarily I as I have said in earlier posts the LDS concept of God is so far away from the Biblical one (summarised by the trinity) as to make it impossible for me to think anyone who truly believes LDS doctrine knows the one true God.

It is *your interpretation* of the Bible and the trinitarian interpretation of the Bible which the LDS reject, not the Bible's doctrines.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Darren10

[Darren10]

What? You say you agree that faith is far too important to leave it up to something as subjective as prayer. Yet you quote a passage that talks about testing a faith, a belief system by praying about it? Yes, I've read those verses quite a few times.

What am I supposed to think? You receive a witness that the LDS Church is true and I receive a witness that the LDS Church is NOT true, and both witnesses are correct? Can the LDS Church be both true and not true at the same time?

Refer to post #528.

Sir, pay close emphasis on "receive" (only done by your own reading and study) and "ponder". These verses do not advocate prayer alone.

*You* are to think as you think best, sir. I'm not dictating to you what to think. Dictating what to think and believe is the job of the trinitarian creeds; not LDS believers nor LDS doctrines. And, you are correct, you and I cannot both be correct.

[Akboy]

Akboy #528;

Huh? What makes you think that you're saved and Mormons are damned? There is no LDS here who thinks he or she is "special" above others yet you have decisively concluded that Mormons follow a false prophet and wrong Jesus and thus are damned. Why are you so "special"?

Nobody here can tell you why God didn't speak to you. But as for myself I cannot, nor will not deny the spiritual manifestation s in my life to verify the truthfulness of the Book of mormon, Joseph Smith, and the restored gospel.

The Bible is pretty clear that some people will follow false prophets and some face eternal punishment. Those who are saved aren't special. Them being saved is far more about what Christ did for them than it is about what they did.

Doesn't the LDS Church teach everyone is here to be tested so we can prove ourselves worthy for exaltation? So why would God not answer someone and confirm the reality of the test? I know other people who've had similar experiences. They heard some LDS teaching and were willing to try it out, so they read and prayed about it and nothing happened. Why would this happen to anyone? How can it be a legitimate test to prove ourselves when people can't go any further than step 1?

If I was taking a class and the teacher told me I needed to improve my grade to pass, I would be willing to do that. It might hurt my pride a bit redoing some basic stuff and I probably wouldn't like the work, but I would still do it so I could pass. But how am I supposed to do it when the teacher isn't giving me any info? I asked him about it, and he didn't say anything about how to do better or what areas I need to work on. Then what's the point of being in the class at all? If the teacher really wants me to prove myself in this subject and pass, why isn't he helping me? Isn't that his job? Would you really blame the student in this case?

[Akboy]

djholmes #523;

Really? Holy Trinity (bold mine):

You linked to a Catholic website. We are not Catholic.

[Darren10]

I disagree with your intrepretation of Psalm 82, I believe the first verses in the Psalm layout why the people in the Psalm are called gods. But accepting your argument are you then saying that the Jews who were going to stone Jesus were actual gods?

I am saying that *Jesus* called the Jews gods and they are so because they are "children of the most High". Were this passage in John 10 not "exegent" (a word you like to use) I'd most likely agree with your inpterpretation of Psalms 82. Nevertheless, the reason I posted Psalms 82 and John 10 was not to declare to you that there are "actual gods" but rather that the Father has other sons besides Jesus Christ.

[Akboy]

*You* are to think as you think best, sir. I'm not dictating to you what to think. Dictating what to think and believe is the job of the trinitarian creeds; not LDS believers nor LDS doctrines. And, you are correct, you and I cannot both be correct.

Okay, so only one of the witnesses can be correct. Either the Church is true, like your witness said, or it's not true, like my witness said. One of the witnesses must be a false witness then. Does God send false witnesses?

[Darren10]

The article was actually saying that the second Greek word 'genes' carries a different meaning than beget-the translators of the KJV thought genes was derived from a word that meant beget but they were mistaken. So beget isn't the proper translation even though it may still carry some of the intended meaning of one and only.

That's fine but the article also says that there is no English equivalent to "monogenes". Also, I support "only begotten in the Flesh \since it upholds the unique relationship between the Father and Jesus Christ.

When you say 'only begotten in the flesh' you wrongly hold out the possibility that there are other sons like Jesus out there.

WHAT?!?!?! Neither I nor do Mormons believe there is any other person/being who was the "only begotten in the flesh". There are "children" of the Father on earth (that would be everyone) but only one Son begotten "in the flesh" by the Father. Period.

BTW where do LDS get only begotten 'in the flesh' from because that is not in John 3:16 and that is not what it is talking about.

That's the LDS interpretation.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&type=verse&query=only+begotten+in+the+flesh

[Darren10]

Okay, so only one of the witnesses can be correct. Either the Church is true, like your witness said, or it's not true, like my witness said. One of the witnesses must be a false witness then. Does God send false witnesses?

Correct, both of us cannot be correct. While God will never send out as false witness man can very well a) misinterpret God's voice to him, b) not be ready to receive God's word, c) dismiss God's word and yet remain convinced that he has never reveiced God's word in the first place or a whole lot of other reasons to conclude that God's truth is not true. Some ex LDS have become athiests. They purport all scripture as a falsehood. Is this because God sent them a false witness (as oxy-moronic that may sound)?

Why would you even ask about God sending out a false witness. Nothing here suggest God would do sucha thing. Well, except you in the fact that you keep bringing this hypothetical up.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Darren10

[Darren10]

You linked to a Catholic website. We are not Catholic.

So? You believe this formulation 100%. Since the LDS reject, "And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the SonUncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate," does that in and of itself make the LDS nonchristian?

"Catholic faith" needs to be interpreted here as a "universal Christian faith", not explicitly the Roman Catholic Church. See Catholic.