Alma 43:13,14 No Others

[cursor]

If you can clarify, in your theory of "Others", do you argue that the Nephites converted indigenous people to their pre-Christian, Mosaic-law living culture and intermarried with them, or do you propose some other form of interaction? And how does that compare to how the Israelites interacted with the Canaanites in the Old Testament?

While I don't expect that you [sincerely] apologize for much of anything ...

I said nothing of converting indigenous peoples "to pre-Christian, Mosaic-law living culture."

Natural human interaction is ... well, natural. That can't be a difficult concept for you. Right? .

I said nothing of Canaanites.

[cursor]

Sorry, I was just trying to interpret your response to cinepro. I'll bow out and let you explain to him. Sorry.

Why in the world would you say that I suggested that they "intermingled but never married" with indigenous populations?

Edited July 13, 2012 by cursor

[cdowis]

Just to be clear, if the "others" theory of The Book of Mormon is correct, that would mean that we have two scriptural stories of God leading his chosen people to a "Promised Land", one in the Old Testament and one in The Book of Mormon.

In both of those stories, the Chosen People arrive at their Promised Land and find it inhabited by pagan gentiles. Yet we must now believe that in the case of the Old Testament chosen people, they were told to eliminate these "others", with strict penalties for intermarriage, while in The Book of Mormon, they were told to convert and intermarry with the natives, preserving their religion and language as a sub-culture to the larger population.

Truly God works in mysterious ways...

Not really for those who read the scriptures carefully.

1. The BOM tells us that the "others" in the Old Testment were wicked, and had been warned, prior to the entry of the israelites, to repent. The Israelites were commanded to destroy them, and not to intermarry with them because of their continued wickedness.

2. The BOM makes not mention of the Nephites being compelled to intermarry among the others.

Perhaps you are looking at the antimormon version of the BOM. The one which says that they spoke fluent French and Greek. And now they are commanded to intermarry with the others.

Amazing and mysterious. Is this version copyrighted?

Anyway, Cinepro, you are the one who is truly mysterious whenever you post such stuff.

Edited July 14, 2012 by cdowis

[cursor]

After moderately stewing about this topic last night (and this morning), I am willing to seriously examine Lehite population growth (which would include Zoram (the servant of Laban), Ishmael and his wife, Ishmael's 2 sons, and Ishmael's 5 daughters). I recommend that initiating such a discussion at Alma 43 is, however, the suboptimal. I suggest that we join the Hebrew parties involved back in the old world, then follow their progressive genealogy as they approach the new world ... then beyond. And, let's use ONLY the Book of Mormon text.

So, who's game?

[CASteinman]

After moderately stewing about this topic last night (and this morning), I am willing to seriously examine Lehite population growth (which would include Zoram (the servant of Laban), Ishmael and his wife, Ishmael's 2 sons, and Ishmael's 5 daughters). I recommend that initiating such a discussion at Alma 43 is, however, the suboptimal. I suggest that we join the Hebrew parties involved back in the old world, then follow their progressive genealogy as they approach the new world ... then beyond. And, let's use ONLY the Book of Mormon text.

So, who's game?

Maybe me! Not sure exactly what you are trying to do but it might be interesting.

I can run stats and spreadsheets if you want.

[webbles]

After moderately stewing about this topic last night (and this morning), I am willing to seriously examine Lehite population growth (which would include Zoram (the servant of Laban), Ishmael and his wife, Ishmael's 2 sons, and Ishmael's 5 daughters). I recommend that initiating such a discussion at Alma 43 is, however, the suboptimal. I suggest that we join the Hebrew parties involved back in the old world, then follow their progressive genealogy as they approach the new world ... then beyond. And, let's use ONLY the Book of Mormon text.

So, who's game?

I was actually thinking of programming up a "choose your own adventure" system yesterday. You would enter the initial information (group size, birth rate, etc) and it will then run through each year from 600 BC to 33 AD. At different points in time, if there isn't sufficient information on how many died, converted, apostatized, etc, you'd have to enter the information. I'd probably also show the population sizes of each major group and age groups inside of them (I'm thinking of using population pyramid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_pyramid).

[cursor]

This energy in this thread (and those similar) has danced around like a ping pong ball in a popcorn popper. I'm hoping for some real logic, serious thought, and constructive posting. Read the posts of others (pun intended) multiple times to ensure responsible replies. Reply with an eye/mind/voice towards cooperative resolution. Leave snarky and sarcastic backstabbing in the garbage, where it belongs. Let's be less reactive. For me, I hope to not post reactively (which frequently, for me, means with anger). Perhaps best to wait several hours (or even a whole day) before counter-punching ... and even then, do so constructively.

[robuchan]

After moderately stewing about this topic last night (and this morning), I am willing to seriously examine Lehite population growth (which would include Zoram (the servant of Laban), Ishmael and his wife, Ishmael's 2 sons, and Ishmael's 5 daughters). I recommend that initiating such a discussion at Alma 43 is, however, the suboptimal. I suggest that we join the Hebrew parties involved back in the old world, then follow their progressive genealogy as they approach the new world ... then beyond. And, let's use ONLY the Book of Mormon text.

So, who's game?

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58346-populations-in-bom-others-theory/

[cursor]

I'll be looking forward to positive insights from both of you, webbles & CASteinman.

[robuchan]

I'll be looking forward to positive insights from both of you, webbles & CASteinman.

What about me? Am I chopped liver?

[cursor]

You hadn't yet responded ... "chopped liver." Join on in!

[ANACO]

After moderately stewing about this topic last night (and this morning), I am willing to seriously examine Lehite population growth (which would include Zoram (the servant of Laban), Ishmael and his wife, Ishmael's 2 sons, and Ishmael's 5 daughters). I recommend that initiating such a discussion at Alma 43 is, however, the suboptimal. I suggest that we join the Hebrew parties involved back in the old world, then follow their progressive genealogy as they approach the new world ... then beyond. And, let's use ONLY the Book of Mormon text.

So, who's game?

You forgot Ishmael's grandchildren. (1 Nephi 7:6.) How many were there? - as both the sons of Ishmael were married and had children before they left Jerusalem? No one knows. But your father believed Lehi's daughters married these already married young men! YIKES!

http://maxwellinstit...109&chapid=1258

"As noted above, it may be that at some point the daughters of Lehi became wives of the sons of Ishmael"

So you've already started your game - on false assumptions of the text.

I wonder how your game will compare to the link above?

I'll volunteer as a referee to see if any plagiarism occurs.

Edited July 15, 2012 by ANACO

[cursor]

Well, then let's correct any false assumptions, and start on solid ground! Let's delve a little deeper and establish a proper base.

You're right, ANACO, about both of the sons of Ishmael already having established families. Note, however, that my father's opinion regarding the daughters of Lehi is that "the arduous wilderness experience had caused the (unmentioned) death of the original wives of the sons of Ishmael, whereupon Lehi's daughters were taken as replacement spouses." Note that my father does NOT believe that "Lehi's daughters married these already married young men," as you previously expressed.

[cursor]

As a starting point (please correct me if I'm wrong), I see the following set of characters::

Lehi & Sariah

Laman

Lemuel

Nephi

Jacob

Joseph

daughter 1

daughter 2

Ishmael & wife

daughter 1 (mff: married Zoram)

[mff = my father feels]

son 1 (already married, with children)

son 2 (already married, with children)

daughter 2 (mff: married Laman)

daughter 3 (mff: married Lemuel)

daughter 4 (mff: Married Sam)

daughter 5 (mff: married Nephi)

Zoram (the servant of Laban)

Constructive feeback?

[CASteinman]

As a starting point (please correct me if I'm wrong), I see the following set of characters::

Constructive feeback?

mff means?

Is this your minimum list?

I think Sam is missing.

Edited July 15, 2012 by CASteinman

[cursor]

[mff = my father feels], noted above. Thanks. I'll add Sam.

Edited July 15, 2012 by cursor

[cursor]

As a starting point (please correct me if I'm wrong), I see the following set of characters::

Lehi & Sariah

__Laman

__Lemuel

__Nephi

__Sam

__Jacob

__Joseph

__daughter 1

__daughter 2

Ishmael & wife

__daughter 1 (mff: married Zoram)

____[mff = my father feels]

__son 1 (already married, with children)

__son 2 (already married, with children)

__daughter 2 (mff: married Laman)

__daughter 3 (mff: married Lemuel)

__daughter 4 (mff: Married Sam)

__daughter 5 (mff: married Nephi)

Zoram (the servant of Laban)

Constructive feeback?

[CASteinman]

What about the husbands of the two daughters of Lehi? Polygamy? Someone died? Spinsters?

[webbles]

If we are starting at Jerusalem, then Jacob and Joseph shouldn't be there. If we are starting at the boat, then I would say each of the 4 brothers have between 2 and 4 children.

[ERayR]

If we are starting at Jerusalem, then Jacob and Joseph shouldn't be there. If we are starting at the boat, then I would say each of the 4 brothers have between 2 and 4 children.

How do you figure as far as I can tell we don't know for sure how long the journey from Jerusalem to the boat took.

[webbles]

How do you figure as far as I can tell we don't know for sure how long the journey from Jerusalem to the boat took.

1 Nephi 17: 4 -> 8 years in the wilderness.

[ERayR]

1 Nephi 17: 4 -> 8 years in the wilderness.

Thanks I must have read that at least a dozen times before.

[ANACO]

Not really for those who read the scriptures carefully.

1. The BOM tells us that the "others" in the Old Testment were wicked, and had been warned, prior to the entry of the israelites, to repent. The Israelites were commanded to destroy them, and not to intermarry with them because of their continued wickedness.

2. The BOM makes not mention of the Nephites being compelled to intermarry among the others.

Perhaps you are looking at the antimormon version of the BOM. The one which says that they spoke fluent French and Greek. And now they are commanded to intermarry with the others.

Amazing and mysterious. Is this version copyrighted?

Anyway, Cinepro, you are the one who is truly mysterious whenever you post such stuff.

Cinepro was not referring to the anti-mormon version of the BOM. He was being sarcastic by referring to the BOM as the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly by LDS Apologists for the LGT and OTHERS theories.

The Law of Moses forbade Israelites from marrying outside of the covenant. Yet, the BOM translated by LDS Apologists for the OTHERS theory, ignores this. They believe Lehites who kept the Law of Moses (they had the Plates of Brass, after all) newly arrived from Jerusalem, intermarried with OTHERS. Mystery solved.

Kind regards.

[cdowis]

The Law of Moses forbade Israelites from marrying outside of the covenant. Yet, the BOM translated by LDS Apologists for the OTHERS theory, ignores this.

The BOM translated by JS and used by the members of the LDS church, including the apologists, does tell us that the Nephites lived the law of Moses, they had living prophets to give such instruction, but did not discuss the relationship between the Nephites and the others. And that includes the marriage relationship between the two groups.

It is tiresome to attempt to have a discussion with someone who does not bother to know the basics of the BOM text.

He was being sarcastic

And I was being sarcastic as well. Cinepro is certainly very familiar with the BOM text, but sometimes pretends to have difficulties understanding it.

We go a long ways back and understand each other. Thanks, but your assistance is unnecessary.

Edited July 15, 2012 by cdowis

[webbles]

What about the husbands of the two daughters of Lehi? Polygamy? Someone died? Spinsters?

Or, they could be Jacob and Joseph's age and so will marry a son of Nephi, Sam, or Zoram.