volgadon Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 GOOD taste!!! two thumbs up..... You will love Sheila Spector's monographs on Blake and the Kabbalah. These two books are little known gems. http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeV/Reviews/Spector.html
CASteinman Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Another of my favourites. Was able to see some of his work at the Tate. You might enjoy Christopher Rowland on Blake and biblical traditions.Thanks. I don't entirely know how to take Blake. On one hand, I feel like getting someone's insights and interpretation is a bit like harlotry against the words of Blake. On the other hand, I know for sure that people have some great thoughts that are beneficial.Still nothing impacts me quite like his versions. The Chimney Sweeper (s) for example. I wonder what he was like as a man.
mfbukowski Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 A literal reading of the Restoration scriptures fairly demands a (mostly) literal reading of the Bible. Orthopraxy aside, faithful LDS scholars aren't really at liberty to conclude, for example, that Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, or in Bethlehem, or that he was originally a disciple of John the Baptist, or that he didn't literally rise from the dead--or that the apostle John died in the first century C.E., or that Malachi wasn't a historical personage, or that the Holy Spirit is female, and so on and so forth. These options are off the table.Those are not metanarratives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanarrative#Poststructuralist_skepticism_toward_metanarrativesThose are historical statements which may be justified beliefs or not justified beliefs. I believe they are justified and take them on faith.This is kind of esoteric stuff- no one is saying something like "there are no facts", or "nothing is true" the question is more about how those terms or ideas - facts or truth- are defined.
CASteinman Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Those are historical statements which may be justified beliefs or not justified beliefs. I believe they are justified and take them on faith.This is kind of esoteric stuff- no one is saying something like "there are no facts", or "nothing is true" the question is more about how those terms or ideas - facts or truth- are defined.I can't make my way through that dense braniac stuff on wikipedia. But just the word "metanarrative" seems to me to fit the idea of the Temple Ceremony.
CASteinman Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 GOOD taste!!! two thumbs up..... Well.. at least one arrow up. I think that's all the board will allow.
volgadon Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Thanks. I don't entirely know how to take Blake. On one hand, I feel like getting someone's insights and interpretation is a bit like harlotry against the words of Blake. On the other hand, I know for sure that people have some great thoughts that are beneficial.Still nothing impacts me quite like his versions. The Chimney Sweeper (s) for example. I wonder what he was like as a man.As a man? Difficult.
David Bokovoy Posted June 28, 2012 Author Posted June 28, 2012 I just realised I haven't kept up on this aspect, so I've got some reading to do. What would you recommend as the best introduction to the Fragmentary Hypothesis?Send me an email and I would be happy to share some articles/PDF's. Much of the work has been done in German (I know you do Russian). However, this book provides a nice collection of essays on continental models...http://books.google.com/books?id=VAB2FYFH3vQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=label:%22ot+introduction%22#v=onepage&q&f=false
CASteinman Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 As a man? Difficult.He seems somehow heroic to me. His poem "Jerusalem" is, to me, almost like pre-Mormon Scripture.
David Bokovoy Posted June 28, 2012 Author Posted June 28, 2012 Also the book I cited The Pentateuch: International Perspectives on Current Research (eds. Thomas B. Dozeman, Konrad Schmid, and Brauch J. Schwartz; FAT 78; Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2011) has some very helpful essays in both English and German. It's a very expensive publisher. I did my best to encourage Dana Pike to order a copy for the BYU library; but email me.
volgadon Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Send me an email and I would be happy to share some articles/PDF's. Much of the work has been done in German (I know you do Russian). However, this book provides a nice collection of essays on continental models...http://books.google....epage&q&f=falseThanks! You'll laugh, I actually put that book on my to read list about an hour ago.
volgadon Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 He seems somehow heroic to me. His poem "Jerusalem" is, to me, almost like pre-Mormon Scripture.He was definitely heroic, and I know Jerusalem almost by heart, but Blake was a difficult man to get along with. Uncompromising geniuses usually are.
zerinus Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Yeah well considering that Joel prophesied the Spirit of God being poured out upon all flesh in the last days, none of this is much of a worry eh?Thank you, good quote. Let's see what it says:Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:So it looks like we are long ways from there yet. Here is another nice one:Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . .14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said . . .16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:I don't think we have got quite there yet. Here is another:D&C 95:4 For the preparation wherewith I design to prepare mine apostles to prune my vineyard for the last time, that I may bring to pass my strange act, that I may pour out my Spirit upon all flesh—That refers to an event that has not yet happened, and it will be a long while before it does. I was talking about the here and now. Edited June 28, 2012 by zerinus
zerinus Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Here is another nice one I forgot:Moroni 7:19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thingOkay, this is the last one, I promise, I quit! Edited June 28, 2012 by zerinus
JDave Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Well, attracting non-members would tend to raise the likelihood that eventually they might become members.But I am just talking about how many church leaders in the past have pointed to nonLDS as examples on how to better walk the path. I don't think any of them even meant by the suggestion of studying the lives of good nonmembers we should ignore what we've learn as and from members of our faith or even that we shouldn't put a higher priority on learning from those of our own faith. I am thinking just that we should never set a limit on where and when God might deliver a message to us, with of course the qualification that it is better for us to put the most effort into seeking out messages from places that are most likely to provide them.I love to read the nonLDS POV simply because I like to see how others' minds work. While I may not be sifting through the stuff looking for inspired truths, I don't reject them when I come across them just because I wasn't looking.Very true. While we should focus on what we believe to be the most profitable sources, we should always save a little room for holy envy.
TomesD Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 As rants go.. it meets all the criteria. Emotional. Swearing. No logical case. And even statements like this that I quote which do not show credible insight into the very words upon which the "rant" may rest -- in this case the concept of "Scholarship". Excellent job at that! LOL 1
TomesD Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Not only does it give a warning but it also sent a message that when an individual will be dismissed it could be by email or even text messaged that the person no longer has a job. Also, when posting anything on the internet, the future employees will be tempted to use a different screen name or have fear to post anything that may get them noticed in a negative way.Dan's firing was also about censorship and putting some fear into anyone who may wish to defend the church.I think that the way that was handled (by email) was unprofessional. But I am not sure I see Dan's dismissal as censorship. Can you elaborate on why you think this?
TomesD Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Dan has been very vocal on the internet, using his own name. I believe that he was fired for his remarks on the internet and his defense of the lds church. I don't think that his firing was about one incident. If so, this sends a message to future scholars to tone down their internet remarks, be careful of what they say, or use a different screen name from their own.It makes no sense to me that BYU/MI would dismiss Dan from his position as editor for defending the Church. Now, it may simply be that those powers that are in charge decided that they wanted to take the publication in a different direction as they have noted. How that plays out will be interesting to see. It seems silly to speculate the "whys" and "how comes" of an situation such as this, as such speculation is bound to lead to all manner of incorrect conclusions.
TomesD Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 If so, this is the first I have heard of it. I have not heard even so much as a whisper of it until you proposed it. Of such torn pillows are the feathers of false belief strewn around the land. I would not want to spread rumors of this type -- its really a whole new defamation. I would want to really know.well said. As noted in a previous post, such speculation is really fruitless and brings its own sort of destruction.
TomesD Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Well good to see you again then I guess since we probably knew each other in the AOL pre-existence -=smiles=- I may have known you as well, then.
CASteinman Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 Blake was a difficult man to get along with. Uncompromising geniuses usually are.Thanks! That makes me feel better about my life now!
Hamilton Porter Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 And this lack of scholarship is by design. Recent hires in the department of ancient scripture have focused primarily upon LDS seminary teachers with degrees in Instructional Technology, and Education; those currently being considered seriously for research positions in the department of Ancient Scripture include teachers with degrees in Public Administration, etc. The current Department Chair over Ancient Scripture holds a PhD in Sociology, and the former Department Chair over Ancient Scripture has a degree in P.E.This is extremely disturbing. A main reason I still have a testimony today is because Stephen E. Robinson relayed to us in his NT course that his dissertation adviser at Duke pretty much said that the Book of Mormon was an ancient book. He told us about his Evangelical classmate at breaking down and crying in class, and that he's never had to do that because the LDS position is so strong.And secular education isn't necessarily all that bad. By tellings us about the human elements of Gospel writers, I know not to expect too much of my church leaders.Now that the Religion department will be dominated by CES personnel, we will be building testimonies of fluff that will be destroyed by the internet.
David Bokovoy Posted June 28, 2012 Author Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) This is extremely disturbing. A main reason I still have a testimony today is because Stephen E. Robinson relayed to us in his NT course that his dissertation adviser at Duke pretty much said that the Book of Mormon was an ancient book. He told us about his Evangelical classmate at breaking down and crying in class, and that he's never had to do that because the LDS position is so strong.There's no question that academic studies in scripture can present some unique challenges to some traditional LDS assumptions regarding scripture. Knowledge of the ancient world and the development of religious texts can cause a need to shift certain traditional paradigms. Edited March 3, 2014 by David Bokovoy 1
Hamilton Porter Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) ... Edited June 28, 2012 by Hamilton Porter
Hamilton Porter Posted June 28, 2012 Posted June 28, 2012 It's the same pattern that exists in very conservative Evangelical seminaries. Oftentimes, in order to avoid having to address the Bible from an academic perspective, Evangelical scholars will pursue degrees in areas such as History of Biblical Interpretation. In so doing, they intentionally avoid having to learn information that challenges their assumptions regarding the Bible. They then return to their respective seminaries and present themselves to their faith based communities as experts in Bible.Is it even close? Teachers at evangelical seminaries mainly earn doctorates from other evangelical seminaries. At least with BYU, they go to secular (or sometimes Catholic) schools.Thanks for you insider's perspective on those fields. I didn't know one doing a PhD in ANE and studying Yahweh-Baal parallels for 6 years could still come home with a fundamentalist view of the Bible. Come to think of it, David Rolph Seely was my Rel 302 professor and he believed in the unity of Isaiah.
David Bokovoy Posted June 28, 2012 Author Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Is it even close? Teachers at evangelical seminaries mainly earn doctorates from other evangelical seminaries. At least with BYU, they go to secular (or sometimes Catholic) schools.There are many instructors in evangelical seminaries that have earned doctorates at secular schools. But when they do, they'll often study in an ancillary field to Bible.Thanks for you insider's perspective on those fields. I didn't know one doing a PhD in ANE and studying Yahweh-Baal parallels for 6 years could still come home with a fundamentalist view of the Bible. Come to think of it, David Rolph Seely was my Rel 302 professor and he believed in the unity of Isaiah.David Seely has a degree in OT and is a good scholar. He's currently working on finishing the Deuteronomy volume for the Anchor Bible Commentary series. I think very highly of him, and many others in Religious Ed. Edited March 3, 2014 by David Bokovoy
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