Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) You keep misquoting the scripture. Also cherry picking.If you feel I am misusing it, please feel free to use it correctly. As it stands, it is plain.22 For behold that all little children are aalive in Christ, and also all they that are without the blaw. For the power of credemption cometh on all them that have dno law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—Whoever is not condemned cannot repent and baptism does them no good. 23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in adead works.Baptizing them who are not condemned and therefore cannot repent is a dead work. 24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for arepentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.Only those who are both condemned and under the curse of Adam, or possibly under the curse of a personally broken law, can repent. 25 And the first fruits of arepentance is bbaptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;26 And the remission of sins bringeth ameekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the bHoly Ghost, which cComforter dfilleth with hope and perfect elove, which love endureth by fdiligence unto gprayer, until the end shall come, when all the hsaints shall dwell with God.The first commandment to be obeyed upon repentance is the commandment to be baptized. Submitting to baptism is an expression of faith and fulfills the commandments, which, if done, brings the remission of sins and the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost, and so forth.Again: whoever is not condemned cannot repent, and for such baptism is a dead work, being of no effect. And the Lord would not command that which is mockery before himself - that is, baptizing them who are not condemned.Therefore, the question remains: how is it that it is guaranteed that all who hit the age of accountability, whatever that is for each individual, have already yielded to the temptations of the devil, wherein they are condemned before God? Edited June 10, 2012 by Log
Storm Rider Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Therefore, the question remains: how is it that it is guaranteed that all who hit the age of accountability, whatever that is for each individual, have already yielded to the temptations of the devil, wherein they are condemned before God?The wording is difficult for me and I may not understand your question; I am slow in the morning at times. You posit that a child that reaches accountability can be totally innocent and without sin. I have never heard of anyone that believed that humanity was not carnal, not sinful by nature, and able completely capable to live in perfect harmony with the will of God. If a human exists as such, that person is perfect and was also known as Jesus the Christ. If someone is able to do what Jesus, the Son of God, did, then there would be no need for baptism....except to fulfill all righteousness, which is exactly what Christ said for his own actions. I think you posit the impossible, but the requirement would still be the same. Baptism is not, and never has been an expression of faith or a dead work. Baptism is an ordinance that Christ stated clearly was required to enter heaven. Peter reflects this understanding clearly in Acts 2:38. If one is searching for an expression of faith there is not greater expression than the statement, "I believe in Christ". Christ taught that baptism was required, not as an expression of faith, but a requirement to enter heaven and repeatedly told the people to repent and be baptized. All have sinned and all need to be baptized if one wants to enter heaven.
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 The wording is difficult for me and I may not understand your question; I am slow in the morning at times.I'll try to rephrase it. This argument excepts Christ, who was never condemned, but was specifically commanded to be baptized as an example to us all of what to do to be acceptable unto God.We all agree each and every person who hits the age of accountability is commanded to be baptized.We also ought to agree that those who are not condemned are not commanded to be baptized. In fact, for such to be baptized is mockery before God and a dead work, says Mormon.Therefore, each and every person who hits the age of accountability must be condemned for the Lord to command them to repent and be baptized.How is it possible to guarantee that everyone sins by the time they become accountable? That's the question I'm asking.Now, you suggest that humanity is carnal, and sinful by nature, and unable to completely be in harmony with the will of God. I would agree with that. But does that fully answer the question?
Nominee Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) There is no way for us to know for sure but God knows for sure. And on that note, God judges according to the heart so if somehow some child is still completely innocent at 8 or 9 or 10 years old but does not realize it (nor does the parents or anyone else) then I do not believe God considers that child's baptism faulty or a dead, useless work. However, if a parent that understands the scriptures at all decides to have their baby baptized ~ let's say to appease some in-law or for any number of reasons~ I do believe that baptism may be a dead work. This is what I understand Mormon to be talking about also, not the borderline innocent that could accidentally somehow still be innocent but about the obviously innocent.~ Naomiedit to add: I have an 11 year old son and a 12 year old daughter ; I say children are safe at age 8 to be accountable and baptized. Edited June 10, 2012 by Nominee 1
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) If you feel I am misusing it, please feel free to use it correctly. As it stands, it is plain.OK. The main problem is that you keep quoting a passage that does not pertain to small children. It pertains to other people who do not have the Law. Even if it *did* pertain to small children you would still be cherry picking to exclude the rest of the information from God. 1. Baptism is a LAW from God the FatherRepent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. - The Father's Proclamation as quoted in II Nephi 312. Baptism is a LAW from Jesus.Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church. - Jesus, in III Nephi 27.I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments. - Jacob, reasoning with people who apparently did not understand that even without sin, it was still required to obey the law of God and be baptized in II Nephi 31.2. The reason it is a LAW is because:A It is an ordinance by which we are born unto Christ and enter into Eternal Covenant with Him and His Father for our SalvationWherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are dwilling to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved....Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. -- Jacob in II Nephi 31.B without it people are under condemnation and damned.And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved. -- Jacob in II Nephi 31.Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned -- Jesus Christ in Ether chapter 4.3. However, God exempts some people from this Law (or perhaps more accurately, suspends its operation):Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy. And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption. For behold that all little children are alive in Christ - Moroni in chapter 8.(The rest of the passage you like to quote is about a second group of people who are not little children and is not relevant in that context).4. Then, with regard to little Children, the LAW becomes operative upon them when they are 8 years of age:This is the word of the Lord unto ... all the faithful elders of my church — For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized... their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands. --The Lord in D&C 27.Thus, even if the part you misquote were to be applied to small children, some time when they are 8 years old the law is upon them. And in that case, the phrase you like to quote still does not pertain to them because now they are under the Law. (especially after they have been baptized) Edited June 10, 2012 by CASteinman
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Let's step through it. If someone is not under condemnation, can that person repent?
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Let's step through it. If someone is not under condemnation, can that person repent?Maybe, but not in a way that appears meaningful in the Scriptures and relative to Baptism.
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Maybe, but not in a way that appears meaningful in the Scriptures and relative to Baptism.I'm sorry. The question admits of a yes, or a no, and not both.
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry. The question admits of a yes, or a no, and not both.Incorrect. It admits to both. I will not be led down a primrose strewn path of false dichotomies. Edited June 10, 2012 by CASteinman
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Please explain how a person who is not under condemnation can repent. Then please explain how a person who is not under condemnation cannot repent.The dichotomy is not false, because the propositions A can X, and A cannot X, are jointly exhaustive and mutually exclusive.In this case, a person who is not under condemnation = A, and repent = X. Edited June 10, 2012 by Log
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Please explain how a person who is not under condemnation can repent. Then please explain how a person who is not under condemnation cannot repent.Is this really step by step?They can feel sorry for something that they did and stop doing it, make restitution or other things. Maybe say "I'm Sorry". A certain restrictive sense of the word permits the term "Repent" to merely apply to a change of mind or heart.
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) boring and deleted Edited June 10, 2012 by CASteinman
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 If they are not condemned by God, the other party in this context, then they have got nothing to feel sorry for, do they? No reason for remorse of conscience, because the Light of Christ does not condemn them, correct?We are, after all, discussing the scriptures here. If you wish to talk about something else, there are certainly other threads for that.
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 yes it is. The two issues are not mutually exclusive. If you intend to take this side track, I will stop conversing. Get to the point.Prove that "A can X" and "A cannot X" are not mutually exclusive and jointly exhaustive. As for the point, it's right here.
Storm Rider Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 I'll try to rephrase it. This argument excepts Christ, who was never condemned, but was specifically commanded to be baptized as an example to us all of what to do to be acceptable unto God.In fact, for such to be baptized is mockery before God and a dead work, says Mormon.How is it possible to guarantee that everyone sins by the time they become accountable? That's the question I'm asking.Now, you suggest that humanity is carnal, and sinful by nature, and unable to completely be in harmony with the will of God. I would agree with that. But does that fully answer the question?I would disagree that being baptized to fulfill all righteousness somehow becomes a mockery when one has achieved an age of accountability. If there is an occaision that a child is perfect and has never sinned AFTER reaching the age of accountability, it is no longer a mocker, but the choice is one to fulfill all righteousness.
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Boring and deleted Edited June 10, 2012 by CASteinman
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Therefore, each and every person who hits the age of accountability must be condemned for the Lord to command them to repent and be baptized.You are misquoting the scripture .... again. As I have already told you.
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 I would disagree that being baptized to fulfill all righteousness somehow becomes a mockery when one has achieved an age of accountability. Only Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. That phrase is never applied to anyone else, nor any other action than Christ's baptism.If there is an occaision that a child is perfect and has never sinned AFTER reaching the age of accountability, it is no longer a mocker, but the choice is one to fulfill all righteousness.The child is never the mocker - those who insist on baptizing the uncondemned, who cannot repent, are the mockers.You have not addressed the argument in my post, even though you quoted it.
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Only Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. That is not taught in the scriptures.
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 You have not addressed the argument in my post, even though you quoted it.But I have. Your argument emerges out of misquoting the scriptures.
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Well, they might. I have seen it, so it is undeniable. People in this condition do feel sorry and do repent. Make of that what you will.I have seen penance affected when children are browbeaten, and I have seen sorrow for accidents, but I have not seen someone who has not sinned suffer godly sorrow for their sins and change their hearts to submit to the will of God from whom they had never departed.Its you who has taken command here and is leading me around. If we are not talking about scriptures.... Its because I am taking your lead.Then why are you seeking to introduce a non-scriptural definition of "repent" into this conversation?
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 That is not taught in the scriptures. Look up "fulfill all righteousness." Note well the subject in each case.
Log Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 But I have. Your argument emerges out of misquoting the scriptures.So you refuse to stick to the scriptures. Again - "repentance" is well-defined, scripturally. You're seeking to introduce alternative definitions to break my argument because it cannot be broken on scriptural grounds.
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 I have seen penance affected when children are browbeaten, Well.. you have seen bad things.. but I was not talking about children.Then why are you seeking to introduce a non-scriptural definition of "repent" into this conversation?I'm not. I used the scriptural definition. This is getting off track.
CASteinman Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) Boring and deleted Edited June 10, 2012 by CASteinman
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