Thoughts On Church History And Faith Crisis Part 2

[DBMormon]

I was asking you to forbear from hitting that "report" button.

I read "i dont understand" and you wrote "misunderstand"

sorry.... Believe it or not I was voted best looking in the fifth grade 3 years in a row. I even shaved that last year for the photo

Edited May 17, 2012 by reelmormon

[CASteinman]

If I understand correctly, he can't declare new doctrine without the president of the church on board. There were other members of the 12 who did not believe his position. The first presidency even after he said it restated their position of neutrality pertaining to it. Imagine being in the room when BRM gave that talk.... If you believed evolution when you walked in that night... BRM made you feel stupid for believing it, like you were the dummy in the room. That night he belittled anyone who fell on that side of the fence and yet without The church's stamp and their shortly thereafter digging in even further on the the position of neutrality. Was he wrong, maybe... maybe not. While an apostle, he can not declare new doctrine without the stamp of the other 14 as a group. BTW - good to have ya back..... I am also uncomfortable at times too, do you think anybody noticed? curious what your take is on my Grace and works thread

I am not entirely clear on exactly the precise nature of the problem, but I think, maybe, I am grasping it a bit.

Would it be right to say that listening or reading that talk you feel disrespected and furthermore, you feel disrespected over something that you are pretty sure you are right and he is wrong about? That, in essence, he has no right to correct you on this matter -- or at the very least, if he does correct you -- its not really a correction and you are angry that he made it sound like one?

Or something like that?

(In my experience, nothing matters until it is emotional).

[DBMormon]

Would it be right to say that listening or reading that talk you feel disrespected and furthermore, you feel disrespected over something that you are pretty sure you are right and he is wrong about? That, in essence, he has no right to correct you on this matter -- or at the very least, if he does correct you -- its not really a correction and you are angry that he made it sound like one?

I really don't have a deep tie to evolution one way or the other. I just didn't like that he put the LDS church's stance eggs in one basket and forced people to either disagree with him finding fault perhaps with the church or taking his side and feeling betrayed later on when they encounter evidence contrary to this. sorry it took so long to answer.... forgotten about this

[HiJolly]

reelmormon,

I just came across this thread today, thanks to your most recent post. I have just read through it all the way because it really resonates with my experience in the struggle between rationality, non-rationality, the LDS Church, revelation, science, faith and doubt.

I also had a profound spiritual experience where I was given the 'knowledge' that the Church was *ALL* true. All of it. And before I deal with that here, I'm curious and hope you can share with ...us... a small detail. How old were you when this occurred, and where were you in terms of Church/religion... fully active? less active? Believing? Doubting?

I was 8 years old when I had the experience. And I'll share much more, but am wanting to hear from you first, if you don't mind.

HiJolly

[DBMormon]

How old were you when this occurred, and where were you in terms of Church/religion... fully active? less active? Believing? Doubting?

17 years old. never went to church, any church. I met a LDS girl at a restaurant where I worked. after a few dates I was invited to church. sister missionaries at a fireside gave me a BOM and challenged me. I read the whole BOM along with taking the discussions. I also encountered Fawn Brodie's no man knows my history at the same time and read that as well. I was torn. Took it to the Lord one night..... was up for a long time pleading for an answer.... didn't get it. Went to sleep with teary eyes. Next day me and My girlfriend are having a discussion about the WOW and I tell her I can give it all up except ice tea... why was it so bad? it wasn' like it was drugs or coffee. Right then in the middle of the conversation, BOOM a spiritual Experience that can only be described as marvelous....It had nothing to do with conversation really that we were having, it was an answer to the prayer the night before and it had several aspects to it. Within that experience, one part was actual words read to my mind and heart.... It is true... all of it!!!! I joined the church a couple weeks later.

Edited May 31, 2012 by reelmormon

[DBMormon]

HiJolly did you read the same thread part 1 as well

answered your question on the previous post by the way

Edited May 31, 2012 by reelmormon

[HiJolly]

HiJolly did you read the same thread part 1 as well

answered your question on the previous post by the way

No, I haven't seen it.

HJ

[HiJolly]

17 years old. never went to church, any church. I met a LDS girl at a restaurant where I worked. after a few dates I was invited to church. sister missionaries at a fireside gave me a BOM and challenged me. I read the whole BOM along with taking the discussions. I also encountered Fawn Brodie's no man knows my history at the same time and read that as well. I was torn. Took it to the Lord one night..... was up for a long time pleading for an answer.... didn't get it. Went to sleep with teary eyes. Next day me and My girlfriend are having a discussion about the WOW and I tell her I can give it all up except ice tea... why was it so bad? it wasn' like it was drugs or coffee. Right then in the middle of the conversation, BOOM a spiritual Experience that can only be described as marvelous....It had nothing to do with conversation really that we were having, it was an answer to the prayer the night before and it had several aspects to it. Within that experience, one part was actual words read to my mind and heart.... It is true... all of it!!!! I joined the church a couple weeks later.

I was hoping it would be something like that. Thank you so much for relating that experience.

My experience occurred as hands were placed on my head and my dad said "Receive the Holy Ghost". At that very instant, I felt a flowing, electric, hot, slow and vibrant power flow into the crown of my head (where the hands were) down through my entire body to the soles of my feet. For myself, I don't recall any words per se, but I simultaneously *knew* with a BOOM that it (the Church) was _all_ true.

Similar to this link, but I was only 8 so I think some of this I didn't really get: http://home.comcast.net/~mevans41/greaterthings/bofls.html

This was a very important event. For many years after, I took the Church and it's influence on me very very seriously. It was a great blessing in my life. Kept me from all sorts of tomfoolery. It wasn't until years afterward, after my mission, marriage and while I was in college, that I found a need to re-think that experience and what it might mean.

It's late, I'll say more tomorrow. But this is interesting also: I know my sister had the exact same experience when she was baptized and confirmed at age 8. And a friend of mine that joined the church at age (20? 21?) also had the same thing happen as well.

HiJolly

[DBMormon]

looking forward to hearing more

[DBMormon]

HiJolly - http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57504-thoughts-on-church-history-theology-and-faith-crisis/

This is where it all started when I was struggling a feew weeks and months back. Looking back at this thread, it was quite intriguing

[HiJolly]

looking forward to hearing more

So what are the common threads? Here's what I'm thinking of:

1) The LDS Church is involved

2) We were all just starting in our involvement with the Church (noobs!)

3) theoretical: We were all 100% sincere

I think #2 & #3 are pretty likely involved with this. Not so much #1.

Well as the years passed, I was a teenager with all the crap that comes with that. By the time I was on my mission, I had forgotten this "baptism of fire" experience. Then I had a particularly difficult time and ended up questioning God as to why my prayers concerning Moroni's promise had never been answered. And they hadn't, other than some nice warm fuzzies and moments of inspiration while reading the BoM -- but I never got what *I* would consider an answer to the Moroni promise thing.

Then I harrassed God about how I *deserved* a witness and how He wasn't being fair. What a pity party. After several weeks of pretty much continuous contemplation on this, God answered my prayers. He said: "You've been given enough"; He also restored my memory of when I was baptized and confirmed. Wow. I was satisfied. Honestly, it was enough for me. I finished out my mission on a real 'high'.

But still, there was a worm in my apple. Moroni's promise did not occur as promised, whether I needed it or not. I didn't feel too bad, though, because I was having some really nice (and sometimes miraculous) events occur in the spirit and in the flesh(!) that were helping me feel good about the whole LDS experience. But I also noticed that priesthood power wasn't very reliable as well. Sometimes people were healed, sometimes not, when I gave blessings. I came to expect varied results. I considered that God was in charge, not me, and therefore things didn't always happen the way I thought they should. And I was/am OK with that. Sometimes I can be an idiot. But I did want to know why things happened the way they did. Patience.

The next worm was evolution. Or perhaps, the Church's fundamentalistic view of scripture that violated known science. Evolution, the Flood, the age of the earth/age of 'Man'. My university years. At the same time (early 1980's) I became aware of USENET and ARM(Alt.Religion.Mormonism). This was before the WWW was available to the public.

I was in my teenage years when a bunch of Apostles and assistants to the Twelve were preaching in GC that it was either evolution, or atonement. Take it or leave it. I had no idea that this false dichotomy was inspired by George McGready Price. I just accepted it all as _all_ true.

But when going to college informed me that all these religious viewpoints were not as obvious as I had thought, I had a dilemma. I mulled it all over. I added to this various questions of LDS history and doctrine that I was finding on ARM. At the time, I was too busy as a fulltime student and fulltime employee to really research these issues. So I made a list, and resolved to investigate them once I'd graduated and settled into a new career.

More tomorrow or maybe later tonight.

HJ

[DBMormon]

HiJolly

awesome.... I am enjoying getting a feel for your story.

[HiJolly]

When I was a teenager, I was a real bookworm. I would go to the city library (about 4 miles away) every Saturday on my bike and return 6 or 7 books, and check out another 6 or 7. In the summer it was more like 10 or 14. One week I checked out a book on Joseph Smith. To this day I don't know which one, but it had to be published before 1975. Anyway, I read in the book that Joseph Smith had something like 35 women eternally married(sealed) to him, and then after that there was a list of hundreds more. I was blown away, and I asked my mom about it.

My mom & dad (now deceased) were both 5 generation Mormons. I think I have two ancestors total that joined the Church after Joseph's death. Cleon Skousen is my first cousin once removed. We had all his "Thousand years" books. Both my mom & my dad had their own personal copies of "Mormon Doctrine" first addition. So yeah, my parents were totally conservative, literalistic LDS folks. Great people, lots of faith but not much education.

So my mom tells me that in the early days of the Church, a lot of people got sealed to leaders to help ensure a place in heaven for themselves, and that these women in particular hadn't been married and so sealed themselves to the biggest prophet of the age -- Joseph Smith. I accepted that answer as I totally trusted my parents 100%. She was right of course, because she was speaking about the earlier doctrine of adoption that the Church followed until somewhere around 1900. I don't know if she knew that, though. And I don't think she knew all the polygamy stuff in Nauvoo -- that or she was protecting me from the info, I don't know which. I kinda think the former.

But then I remember my dad telling me about an ancestor that shared a duplex in Nauvoo with a member of the Apostles and he overheard comments more than once, where Joseph was torn up about Emma not accepting polygamy. So... I dunno...

I felt that my mom made sense at any rate, and I didn't really check the dates to carefully, and I already *knew* the Church was true, so everything was fine. It's really amazing to me now that I never noticed in all my childhood, anyone ever going against or even not believing in the Church. I never saw it until my mission. Crazy, but I think this affected my faith a great deal.

So in college when I was looking up ARM on USENET, I was doing it for one reason alone: to learn more. In particular, I wanted to better understand my baptism of fire, and what it meant. I couldn't find anyone to talk to me about it. As soon as my bishop, or sunday school teacher, or whomever heard me describe what had happened to me, they'd either escape and avoid me, or tell me we didn't talk about these things, they were too personal. I knew the scriptures talked about it some, but they didn't describe it the way I'd experienced it, you know, in that kind of detail. I didn't even know if my experience WAS the "baptism of fire". Maybe it was being "born again"? So I'd been wanting to learn more about it for a very long time, and I thought maybe ARM was a place to learn.

NOT. All I found was a bunch of arguments and history I'd never heard of before and nasty, angry people for the most part. I actually got into an argument with Michael Marquardt(who was not nasty nor angry)! Of course I didn't know who he was at the time, and I was barely into my 20s. All I really knew was that the Church was true. So between anti-Mormon tracts placed on my windshield (Adam-God) and historical tidbits that I found very curious on ARM and science that just couldn't be true (in my worldview), I build a list of things to be resolved.

1. Evolution

2. Adam-God

3. (other stuff I'm not going to talk about)

And when I got out of school and settled down, I went to work trying to understand. And to find out if *anyone* knew *anything* about the baptism of fire. All this, and I didn't have any doubts, I just felt that I needed to figure things out, how they worked, and of course the Church was true.

HJ

[Log]

I went looking for people who knew anything about it as well, and found only one.

[HiJolly]

I went looking for people who knew anything about it as well, and found only one.

At first I didn't find anything or anyone. Of course, this was before the WWW.

Then I found some mystics from varying religious backgrounds (Buddhist, Catholic, Jewish, etc) that had very interesting and similar experiences. I began studying these traditions. I found an account of a non-denominational Christian in Colorado who had the experience upon her baptism. I found Lorenzo Snow's journal entry. it was all very helpful.

And I know this is not very concrete or logical, but I found that when people talked about spiritual experiences that I had been through, I could get a 'feeling' or inner sense as to whether they had really done so or not.

So I learned that you didn't have to be Mormon to experience the baptism of fire. At the same time, being LDS didn't preclude one from having the experience. That required some contemplation.

I'm curious, Log. Can you tell more about finding that one person? Some of the circumstances? Outcome?

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

reelmormon,

I know it may seem I'm meandering about a lot, but I promise that my investigations into both evolution and Adam-God both were very impactful in terms our experience of *knowing* the Church to be _all_ true.

But I'm swamped at work right now. Will try to add more soon.

HJ

[Libs]

Very interesting story, Jolly. Look forward to reading more.

[Log]

So I learned that you didn't have to be Mormon to experience the baptism of fire. At the same time, being LDS didn't preclude one from having the experience. That required some contemplation.

It's even in the Book of Mormon - those Lamanites who were baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and knew it not, recounted in Helaman 5, were not even baptized - they had rejected the gospel! And Joseph was not a Mormon when the pillar of fire descended upon him and he experienced the First Vision.

What we have that non-LDS don't is the perpetual fullness of the Spirit in our hearts as we continue without sinning - a light which stays on as long as our eye is single to the glory of God, whereby we commune with God continually and receive knowledge and are able to participate in miracles and have our prayers answered even as we pray them.

As Alma says, "O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light!" It is something entirely outside of the knowledge of the world.

I'm curious, Log. Can you tell more about finding that one person? Some of the circumstances? Outcome?

She was with me as the fires of God cleansed my sins from my soul and set me free, and she felt a degree of what I felt in her own heart, she having experienced it herself some years earlier.

There have been precious few others throughout the years whom I have found who have experienced it - and, like you, I can tell when someone thinks they have but haven't. Something is always off when you seek to commune with them - they don't understand things, and respond inappropriately to what seem to you perfectly clear references. You can feel the lack of connection with them; you don't see eye-to-eye. They ultimately grow offended at the notion that you have experienced something they haven't, and it shows.

On the other hand, after experiencing it, it is no longer a problem to believe in the literality of the miraculous events recounted throughout the scriptures and the history of the Church - all of it. And you no longer need any man to teach you, for that which you received teaches you all things. And you no longer view the teachings of the Brethren with a jaundiced eye.

[HiJolly]

(I'm on lunch break...)

Moroni's promise did not occur as promised, whether I needed it or not. I didn't feel too bad, though, because I was having some really nice (and sometimes miraculous) events occur in the spirit and in the flesh(!) that were helping me feel good about the whole LDS experience.

I have to acknowledge that Moroni's promise may have been fulfilled here. I know that 'warm fuzzies' are not to be ignored nor cheapened by my seeming dismissal. And the strokes of inspiration clearly *are* the workings of the Holy Ghost. But it's really not satisfying at *all* to the HiJolly at the time, who was seeking _more_. Perhaps foolishly. Perhaps because the Holy Ghost had dealt with me so powerfully in the past.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

It's even in the Book of Mormon - those Lamanites who were baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and knew it not, recounted in Helaman 5, were not even baptized - they had rejected the gospel! And Joseph was not a Mormon when the pillar of fire descended upon him and he experienced the First Vision.

Good point. God works with *all* people who seek to work with Him.

She was with me as the fires of God cleansed my sins from my soul and set me free, and she felt a degree of what I felt in her own heart, she having experienced it herself some years earlier.

Very cool.

There have been precious few others throughout the years whom I have found who have experienced it - and, like you, I can tell when someone thinks they have but haven't. Something is always off when you seek to commune with them - they don't understand things, and respond inappropriately to what seem to you perfectly clear references. You can feel the lack of connection with them; you don't see eye-to-eye. They ultimately grow offended at the notion that you have experienced something they haven't, and it shows.

Yes.

On the other hand, after experiencing it, it is no longer a problem to believe in the literality of the miraculous events recounted throughout the scriptures and the history of the Church - all of it.

It's a little more complicated than that for me, as I'll explain in further posts.

And you no longer need any man to teach you, for that which you received teaches you all things. And you no longer view the teachings of the Brethren with a jaundiced eye.

True. How true, cannot be said or expressed. I view some teachings with joy, some with gladness, others with sympathy. Never anger nor the jaundiced eye, as you say.

HiJolly

[DBMormon]

Log & HiJolly -

What do you think is the difference between those that have the discussed experience and those who don't. God is no respector of persons, so how does the experience pick who gets to recieve it. I had a very spiritual experience praying about the BOM but it was simply a testimony giver not a spiritual endowment or second birth. your thoughts?

[HiJolly]

Log & HiJolly -

What do you think is the difference between those that have the discussed experience and those who don't. God is no respector of persons, so how does the experience pick who gets to recieve it.

Good question. I don't know the answer, but it has apparently concerned enough people that mention of the issue is found in 3 of the 4 standard works, if I recall correctly. Everyone has different Gifts, but we have to take the 'why' as a given, it seems. When I try to answer the question myself, I just end up thinking stupid things that I know don't make sense. Perhaps it's a mystery.

I had a very spiritual experience praying about the BOM but it was simply a testimony giver not a spiritual endowment or second birth. your thoughts?

Would you say you had an answer RE: Moroni's Promise? Sure sounds like it. I know lots of LDS folks have had that experience, even though I haven't.

I think maybe I've muddied the waters by diverging from the "it's *all* true" experience that started this thread, and the "baptism of fire" experience that I had simultaneously with it.

HiJolly

[Log]

What do you think is the difference between those that have the discussed experience and those who don't. God is no respector of persons, so how does the experience pick who gets to recieve it.

I know of only one way to receive it.

17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you;

18 Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save.

19 Yea, humble yourselves, and continue in prayer unto him.

20 Cry unto him when ye are in your fields, yea, over all your flocks.

21 Cry unto him in your houses, yea, over all your household, both morning, mid-day, and evening.

22 Yea, cry unto him against the power of your enemies.

23 Yea, cry unto him against the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness.

24 Cry unto him over the crops of your fields, that ye may prosper in them.

25 Cry over the flocks of your fields, that they may increase.

26 But this is not all; ye must pour out your souls in your closets, and your secret places, and in your wilderness.

27 Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your hearts be full, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your welfare, and also for the welfare of those who are around you.

28 And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye turn away the needy, and the naked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need—I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith.

29 Therefore, if ye do not remember to be charitable, ye are as dross, which the refiners do cast out, (it being of no worth) and is trodden under foot of men.

And, again:

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

And, again:

40 And it came to pass that the Lamanites said unto him: aWhatshall we do, that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us?

41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must arepent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have bfaith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and cAmulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.

42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.

43 And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were aencircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.

44 And aNephi and bLehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that cjoy which is unspeakable and full of glory.

45 And behold, the aHoly Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could bspeak forth marvelous words.

In sum, one must pray with all their heart, might, mind, and strength unto the Father in the name of Christ to receive a remission of sins, to receive the fullness of the Holy Ghost, to be filled with charity and light, and not cease to pray until you receive, remembering in the meantime to to your duty and also to be charitable.

I don't know how to emphasize these things enough. If one acts the coward and says within themselves that they have done enough and God doesn't answer, then one cannot receive these things: one must pour out one's whole soul upon the altar of God that he may answer with fire from heaven. Indeed, one may need to pray nigh unto death to receive this blessing.

So many fall short and never receive this blessing.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Log

[HiJolly]

I've been thinking about how to continue, but I keep getting bogged down in details that while of interest to me, probably wouldn't be to y'all, not to mention you've heard it all before etc, etc, etc.

So as I considered the Adam-God question I found that I really had missing pieces of information -- facts that seemed to exist (HAD to exist) but I didn't have them in hand. I read all the history I could find. Things like Rodney Turner's 1953 BYU Master's thesis titled "THE POSITION OF ADAM IN LATTER-DAY SAINT SCRIPTURE AND THEOLOGY". I went to UTLM for the available text of the talks of Brigham Young on the topic. The old issues of the Deseret News. FARMS. Ensign magazines and General Conference reports.

Why couldn't I find LDS editions of the Conference reports of BY's Adam-god talks? I read Ogden Kraut, Lorin Woolley and other fundamentalists. It turns out that I am a descendant of one of Woolley's patriarchs, and have a right to the sealing power of the priesthood. Hmmm.... A cousin of mine went for it and took a second wife. I did not.

President Kimball spoke against the "Adam-God Theory". Was that the same as the "Adam-God Doctrine"? If they were not the same thing, how could I know it?

Did Joseph really teach it to Brigham Young as Brigham had claimed? Why did Jewish mystics believe in Adam-God? Did Joseph know something of Jewish mysticism? Magic? Was Mike Quinn right about Joseph and the occult?

My search was taking me into some very odd places. By a strange coincidence there was a convergence in Jewish mysticism of both Adam-God and the baptism of fire. This really got my attention.

But what about the 30-some odd years of BY teaching that Adam is the God & father of our spirits? In General Conference as well as other venues?

Wilford Woodruff made the famous declaration that the Prophet of the Church _could not_ lead away the Church into apostacy. He did so because the Manifesto cancelling polygamy as a Mormon practice was absolutely earth-shattering, doctrinally speaking. The Church has taken that statement much farther than WW intended, I am positive. But I digress.

Let me just say here (tangentally) that I grew up being very friendly toward polygamy. All of my grandparents grew up in the Mexican polygamist colonies. Two ancestors were leaders in all the colonies. Another Great Grandfather(and his 4 wives) was praised far & wide as _the_ example of how a polygamist family should be. It has not been an issue for me, though I acknowledge that church-wide, it caused many injustices and abuses that otherwise would not have existed. I really enjoyed (sort of, if you know what I mean) reading Compton's "In Sacred Lonliness". I don't agree with everything he says, but you really can't argue the evidence he presents.

And we were taught some amazing things involving the doctrine of polygamy, for decades. AND we were taught more amazing things for decades involving Adam as our God. Today, we are told that neither of these things are doctrines for us today. Pres. Kimball does not go back and say Adam-God was *never* true, but it seems it's implied. And of course the Church maintains today that there was indeed a time when polygamy was doctrine and living it was justified.

While the Church doesn't say withholding the priesthood from the Blacks was doctrinal, it may as well have been from a practical standpoint. And by this point of my thinking about all this, I'm thinking that it may as well have been, by all practical standards.

And "practicality" is beginning to look more and more important to me, as I contemplate these issues. Is the Church a 'pragmatic' church? Is God a 'pragmatic' God? How can that be? Don't the ends fail to justify the means? Isn't there an ethical line here that can't be crossed?

I had received a powerful spiritual revelation in the 60's, that the Church was _all_ true. Completely, no reservations to it. This point of view seems to fall 100% in line with prophets never leading the Church astray.

But with polygamy changed, with Adam-God theory denounced, with many other things changing and radically so, in some cases, then how can this be? These things were taught from the pulpit for decades!

How can BY preach Adam-god and yet within a year or two of his death, it's a dead issue with no one believing it (except a few polygamist fundamentalists who ended up getting excommunicated a few decades later)?

Not to trivialize these things, but at the time I was puzzling on these things, I was teaching a Primary class. And the Primary President was teaching "sharing time", and she said "Isn't it nice that we have the Holy Ghost and no one else does?" ---Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but this really hit me. That's a false teaching, taken literally. The Holy Ghost works with *everyone* in the world! And I thought, how many times had I been taught faulty doctrine over the years of Primary, Sunday School, Seminary and so forth? Dozens at the least, I am sure.

By this time I'd spent years in college and over a decade in addition to that I'd communicated, via the Eyring-L email list, with some marvelous LDS scientists who taught me the truth of evolution, in a faithful environment. I read "The Origin of Species" and received a spiritual outpouring of witness to it's truth! Yet I had heard all through the 70's and beyond, in all Church-related venues, how evolution and the atonement were impossible to both be true. They were mutually exclusive! So if the science were truth(and by now I knew that much of it was indeed true), then the talks in General Conference against evolution just didn't make sense to me.

But was Brother Brigham teaching false doctrine? Turns out that I find it was not false. It was just from such a different context, that I didn't realize how true it could be. Same with the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve. Did you ever hear that BY taught that Adam came from another world, and was brought here? I found that as absurd as it had sounded to me previously, it was understandable and 'true' now that I could understand it through a different context! I was amazed as I found a connection between Adam & Eve and Adam as God. And how they could be true. How? Jewish mysticism. I searched it out, I studied it, and the fruits were totally unanticipated, yet beautiful. Please understand, this took me about 20 years to piece together. It was not spontaneous, nor poorly thought out. It took an investment of decades of study and prayer and consultation and contemplation.

But this still left me with anti-evolution and other incidental teachings I'd received over the years, which were not true. How strange, though that Adam-god could be true! Weird, as I look back on it.

I'm about to wrap this all up, and I'd like to comment on the truth we find around us in our lives. We have the Church. We have many other religions. We've science, philosophy, atheism, secularism, magick, the occult, psychology, humanism, and much more. I think all of these have things to teach us, pieces of truth that can benefit us. I find that for me, my heart and mind are fully engaged with the LDS Church. Warts and all. I find no evil intent, and much beauty of love, fellowship and the power of God's spirit within it. We LDS may believe many things that just aren't so. For those of us who care, we can find our way to the truth.

My hope is that we all can seek and cling to our perceived truths, and encourage everyone else to do the same. To destroy or tear down or despise is too easy. To build, inspire, to grow and become more, is worth laying aside any criticism or denigration of other people, whatever the reason.

I can't relate all the experiences that tied into this conclusion, so it may fall flat to you who read this. And I'm sorry about that. But as I contemplated all these things, it came to me that so many times, we recieve revelations and yet we don't understand them. Promptings. The still small voice. How many times, we get them but don't understand? It happens continually, from what I see. (let's hear it for the usefulness in this context, of Psalms 24:4!)

I considered how I was raising children but God didn't give me a manual on how to raise them. And we get revelations or promptings or dreams or even visions but many times we haven't a clue what they really mean. And the thought came to me that God allows us to misunderstand practically EVERYTHING in life. It seems to be part of the conditions of this life. And the spirit told me, that this was a part of the plan, and if we are humble and teachable and patient, God will make it right. I *knew* this was true.

I considered my witness that the Church was _all_ true. I had thought for many years on what "true" meant. D&C 93:24. John 18:37-38. D&C 19:6-12. (ok that last one is a tad tangental, but it's *pure gold* in any case.

The spirit taught me that Truth in the sense of 93:24 is not for man. It is truth indeed, but from a perspective of perfection that we cannot attain to in this life. See the correspondence theory of truth (philosophy). The better definition of truth for *us*, is "useful", or "that which brings us to where we need to be".

An arrow(or a 2x4) is 'true' when it is straight, and thereby is fully *useful*.

I looked at my "Church is _all_ true" revelation. I knew from a practical basis that not everything was true. My Primary president could not bear that burden. It just could not be. However, the Church is indeed 'true' in that it successfully is attaining it's God-given charge, to teach the Gospel to the world, to purify and refine it's members, to help and succor the poor, and to redeem the dead.

Yet my belief in that non-literal _truth_ throughout my youth, gave an endless succession of blessed results. Numberless 'better' choices. Better for who? Better for *me*. I considered. Had I ever been harmed by this revelation? Had any other party ever wrongly gained from me in my belief, causing any detriment to myself? The answer is unquestionably "no". It was unsettling to accept the notion of a pragmatic God, but it is the only option that actually works for me! And there is just no way for me to do anything but believe in God, because of my experiences.

I believe in the God of the LDS Church, because I don't have a better model. But I also believe in the God of Ain, Ain Sof and Ain Sof Aur, of Jewish mysticism. I believe in a God that is my Father, but also in a God that transcends all the physical universe, who we may as well call "Nothing", because we don't know Him as He really is. I believe in *my* truth, and lots of the LDS doctrinal truth. But I've learned to place what I know through personal experience above every other 'truth' around me. Thus, I *know* that God is Love. I *know* that God is 'real'. I *know* that God knows me, is willing to share His Mind with me (to an extent), and is the source of Divine Joy.

All these things, He has given me. Truly, I am nothing. (pun intended - sorry)

HiJolly

[Libs]

Jolly, I want to thank you for sharing all of that. I found it extremely interesting.

I believe in *my* truth, and lots of the LDS doctrinal truth. But I've learned to place what I know through personal experience above every other 'truth' around me. Thus, I *know* that God is Love. I *know* that God is 'real'. I *know* that God knows me, is willing to share His Mind with me (to an extent), and is the source of Divine Joy.

Yes...now, that is true.

Edit: Now I know why you call yourself a "Mormon Mystic".

Edited June 3, 2012 by Libs