Multiple Mortal Probations? No Permanent Terrestrial Kingdom?

[inquiringmind]

That is not what I posted. What I said is that IF multiple mortal probations is correct then that says that after some number of mortal probations you will get it right thus eliminating the need for the atonement.

I DO NOT prescribe to that concept. I do not think that numerous probations are needed or desirable. We get one mortal probation and if we are sincere and repent of our sins the atonement of Jesus Christ becomes sufficient of exaltation.

I know that's not what you posted, and I gathered that you don't like the idea of multiple mortal probations, but I don't follow your logic.

Just how does getting it right (in this mortal life, or some other mortal probation) render the atonement unnecessary?

Wouldn't there be more to atone for if it took more than one mortal life for you to "get it right"?

Edited April 21, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

Did Brigham Young and John Widtsoe believe in multiple mortal probations?

[mercyngrace]

That is not what I posted. What I said is that IF multiple mortal probations is correct then that says that after some number of mortal probations you will get it right thus eliminating the need for the atonement.

I DO NOT prescribe to that concept. I do not think that numerous probations are needed or desirable. We get one mortal probation and if we are sincere and repent of our sins the atonement of Jesus Christ becomes sufficient of exaltation.

I think that IF, after a certain number of probationary periods, you automatically get it right, then that would eliminate the need for the atonement BUT I don't that is what is suggested. I think the possibility of multiple probationary periods allows for more opportunities to discover the atonement and thus "get it right".

No one could "get it right" in any number of lives, be they one or some quadrillion, without the atonement. We certainly agree on that.

PS Inquiring Mind, I think every true follower of Christ hopes for universal salvation. Nephi clearly held out hope that all could be saved. In fact, he prayed for it: And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

I think differences of opinion on the matter or on matters of how such could be accomplished are reasonable responses to depravity we encounter in this fallen world or conversely the hope we find in Christ.

Edited April 21, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Alan]

If one is allowed multiple probations until he/she gets it right then an atonement is unnecessary. You merely work it out for yourself. On the other hand if the atonement has any affect then multiple probations are unnecessary because Christ has atoned for and forgiven the shortcomings which then become no longer a problem.

Multiple probations is a works only doctrine that feeds right into reincarnation and a denial of the efficacy of the atonement.

I think this is a simplistic view. The atonement is infinite and eternal in it's efficacy and this could apply to more than one mortal probation. In fact, as it is infinite, it would. However, there may be experiences we require or missions we are supposed to fulfill in mortality that we do not get the chance to expereince or complete. Mortality is the only way to experience some things and therefore it is possible, in my view, for us to elect to have additional mortal lives in order to gain the knowledge and experience we need. This is nothing to do with salvation.

[ERayR]

I know that's not what you posted, and I gathered that you don't like the idea of multiple mortal probations, but I don't follow your logic.

Just how does getting it right (in this mortal life, or some other mortal probation) render the atonement unnecessary?

Wouldn't there be more to atone for if it took more than one mortal life for you to "get it right"?

If you get unlimited chances to get it right and finally do you then have no need of the atonement. If you can do it yourself you have no need of a mediator. The fact is we do need a mediator and as sombody previously said we can;t get it right so we do need a mediator. We do not need unlimited do overs.

[inquiringmind]

If you get unlimited chances to get it right and finally do you then have no need of the atonement. If you can do it yourself you have no need of a mediator. The fact is we do need a mediator and as sombody previously said we can;t get it right so we do need a mediator. We do not need unlimited do overs.

So once you finally "get it right" you have no need of the atonement because getting it right does away with all the sins, and mistakes, and guilt of the past?

If that were true, wouldn't it be as true in this life as in any future probation?

But getting it right at 40 doesn't erase the sins and mistakes of your youth, does it?

You still need the atonement for that (whether you're 20, 40, or 120), right?

Edited April 22, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

That's actually a perfectly good response! Thanks!

[Calm]

http://www.lds.org/e...estion?lang=eng

Some people may confuse the doctrine of resurrection with the concept of reincarnation. The concept of reincarnation involves being born into the world again in a different form and is false doctrine. The doctrine of resurrection involves receiving an eternal reward of an immortal body of flesh and bone. This is true doctrine. Make sure those you teach understand clearly the doctrine of the resurrection.

https://doc-0c-4o-docsviewer.googleusercontent.com/viewer/securedownload/2rpj13q6ldeclidim42cu0qa2llu8teg/j5vf4nnbia00k2nkadjdpf2m0ll65g3b/1335067200000/Ymw=/AGZ5hq8drXzoqCWTRv6CggnHNYUH/QURHRUVTZ0JQbUhhbE9YNEUyY3NxTmFIeGNTOU5KQ3ZlRzVvNFFheE5URzd0Y21QbG9sN1U5RVdGLXRCZU91WlhkUjZfMXhvMlVCOUFvM25vUzdDN0ZmdE5RQVkweWNXbC1TbUhDcnpsVUJRWjhoa2lkczIyT3ZZMGJmbVBuMjQ0UlZ3a210NlItcFI=?docid=53e68c48ba03b680182244fc37a6f28d&chan=EQAAAFAoDzdpLeeVmswShQ17c43DbCtoeBI/PDSC8/cwcBQz&sec=AHSqidYpCoE8y9aIpVYma5Pp9chTv3O8YR8vuT1A62Mmx5oh5Sis9BJHRb381LbZyGYTR8SmBTvQTZAs00Ekj3xfeO5cVddzRGSlTfZVJi7pMkCaVSGgznxw7zmAfNfxR560ReA5ExqVBJ9ynHn3P7p5oZleAKah3wxtyzrffBVht49cJhoGhlx6nNlbvnyu7UGiTw0CsC203JPlXu8I8kW82h79HXqrg10-RpTfbNFVFcPIBhO85FfRB1-mVRPLEFj-dBbq2mE3pzJjJnun_yF6QtRpBQ1kWp2jNa1CoubxcB7T79WsDDuABLZDPtuDKkAKriCtKMljqDLkhgnC192ZVojDRK_IqC8BywuP6iIDn4LOwb3iMmCdLw8W5MTocavUzHww0LEO-YLEhmfBU1XZ0mez8ZFMqg&a=gp&filename=PreachMyGospel___07_03-2_PlanOfSalvation__36617_eng_007.pdf&nonce=1lm6fcskegiai&user=AGZ5hq8drXzoqCWTRv6CggnHNYUH&hash=tbas6ji1ka9f57gknvs5g20fd7jeo6qg

Edited April 22, 2012 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

This is from "Times and Seasons," and I found it very interesting.

In a PEW survey a few months back, 24% of American adults indicated that they believed in reincarnation (ie, that people will be reborn into this world again and again). Apparently many Christians don’t have a problem overlapping their Christianity with Eastern beliefs. For example, “roughly one-in-ten white evangelicals believes in reincarnation, compared with 24% among mainline Protestants, 25% among both white Catholics and those unaffiliated with any religion, and 29% among black Protestants.”

I have not considered myself among those who seamlessly coordinate reincarnation with Christianity. But the following quotes have given me pause to reconsider:

The character of those who are such sticklers for it [working against law and Christianity] will perish, for they are taking the downward road to destruction. They will be decomposed, both soul and body, and return to their native element. I do not say that they will be annihilated; but they will be disorganized, and will be as though they never had been, while we will live and retain our identity, and contend against those principle which tend to death or dissolution. I am after life; I want to preserve my identity, so that you can see Brigham in the eternal worlds just as you see him now. I want to see that eternal principle of life dwelling within us which will exalt us eternally in the presence of our Father and God. If you wish to retain your present identity in the morn of the resurrection, you must so live that the principle of life will be within you as a well of water springing up unto eternal life. JD 7:57 ? p.58, Brigham Young, June 27, 1858.

President Brigham Young has suggested that the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again—must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held. That would be punishment, indeed. John A. Widstoe, Evidences and Reconciliation, 213

Perhaps a limited reincarnation—according to these statements—is compatible with my LDS beliefs. In fact, while I certainly don’t want to repeat a thousand awkward high school moments or the day I fell rock climbing and shattered my leg, being “dis-organized” and trying the whole thing again sounds better than the hell of outer darkness—not that I’m aiming for either of those options. A God who gives the worst of the worst a “do-over” sounds like just the kind of merciful Father who does all in His power to bring about the salvation of his children.

http://timesandseaso...n-mormon-style/

Edited April 22, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

I like some aspects of the idea, and it may have the benefit of solving a problem or two that I've had issues with, but on the other hand, it does seem to fly in the face of certain readings of the scriptures.

Can we discuss those scriptures, and different ways of reading them.

I know that one that evangelicals like to quote is from Hebrews, and speaks of it being "appointed unto men to die once, and after this a judging," but I've never really understood why that would exclude the possibility of some men (as part of that judging) living (and dying) more than once.

Lazarus wasn't reincarnated, but unless he was translated, he must have died more than once.

The first time he died, he came out of his tomb a flesh and blood man four days latter (and he presumably died again some time after that.)

Are there any other scriptures we could discuss here?

P,S. I find it odd that Brigham and some of the early Latter Day Saints seem to have believed in MMP, because it seems to me to be much harder to reconcile with the BOM than the Bible, and I'm interested in whether it can be reconciled.

Edited April 22, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

I think that IF, after a certain number of probationary periods, you automatically get it right, then that would eliminate the need for the atonement BUT I don't that is what is suggested. I think the possibility of multiple probationary periods allows for more opportunities to discover the atonement and thus "get it right".

No one could "get it right" in any number of lives, be they one or some quadrillion, without the atonement. We certainly agree on that.

PS Inquiring Mind, I think every true follower of Christ hopes for universal salvation. Nephi clearly held out hope that all could be saved. In fact, he prayed for it: And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

I think differences of opinion on the matter or on matters of how such could be accomplished are reasonable responses to depravity we encounter in this fallen world or conversely the hope we find in Christ.

Thank you Cate.

[Calm]

I'm interested in whether it can be reconciled

I don't think it can myself...which is one of the reasons the Church teaches it**** is false doctrine, even in the missionary discussions.</div>

****Reincarnation and MMP are identical as far as I can tell, though I will discuss a possible variation that I haven't seen discussed anywhere before (though this is most likely because this isn't a subject I've researched). I don't see the version attributed to BY as so much as a 'do over' as it is progressing to the next stage, fulfilling another, more advanced role (as Adam or Christ IIRC), but even that I've got to wonder if BY meant what was recorded (the problem with adlibbing it as I think he was is that sometimes our ideas don't come out the way we mean them to AND there is the possibility that some nuance he gave that significantly changed the meaning was not recorded properly.)

I can almost see putting on a mortal adult body again if one hasn't been resurrected yet as a possibility, in a sense that was what happened with Lazarus, his spirit departed and then returned to his mortal adult body. Thus the role of Adam might be undergone by someone who had accepted the Atonement, been fully cleansed in the Spirit World but had not gone through resurrection yet to receive a perfect body, who then took up his mortality more or less where he left it off but in a rejuvenated body as a Adam. Adam's body might be in an immortal, incorruptible state at that time due to intervention by God, but not because he had gone through resurrection yet. I don't see how an immortal, resurrected body would become a mortal one when we are told that resurrection means the body and spirit will never again be separated, etc. Then Adam and Eve in their continuation of their adult lives that had been interrupted so to speak for a time where they dwelled in Paradise then play the roles as the parents of the covenant, etc. with the Fall being the trigger for the end of the "interruption" and the resumption of mortality.

I don't see how starting from scratch in a totally different body as an infant and growing multiple times to adulthood only to start over again as an infant with a new set of parents, etc. makes sense with either the doctrine of the resurrection or the sealing doctrines.

Edited April 23, 2012 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

...I don't see how starting from scratch in a totally different body as an infant and growing multiple times to adulthood only to start over again as an infant with a new set of parents, etc. makes sense with either the doctrine of the resurrection or the sealing doctrines.

I think you're overlooking something.

Have you considered Allan's post here?

I would however, point out that this is not a comforting thought for me. The idea of living again as a child somewhere fills me with horror. So if by being faithful here I can avoid that scenario, all well and good.

One further point; I believe that the whole thing is voluntary. We can decide to stop these mortalities whenever we like but have to accept our lot as a result.

Or this?

...while I certainly don’t want to repeat a thousand awkward high school moments or the day I fell rock climbing and shattered my leg, being “dis-organized” and trying the whole thing again sounds better than the hell of outer darkness—not that I’m aiming for either of those options. A God who gives the worst of the worst a “do-over” sounds like just the kind of merciful Father who does all in His power to bring about the salvation of his children.

http://timesandseaso...n-mormon-style/

The entire quote is as follows:

I have not considered myself among those who seamlessly coordinate reincarnation with Christianity. But the following quotes have given me pause to reconsider:

The character of those who are such sticklers for it [working against law and Christianity] will perish, for they are taking the downward road to destruction. They will be decomposed, both soul and body, and return to their native element. I do not say that they will be annihilated; but they will be disorganized, and will be as though they never had been, while we will live and retain our identity, and contend against those principle which tend to death or dissolution. I am after life; I want to preserve my identity, so that you can see Brigham in the eternal worlds just as you see him now. I want to see that eternal principle of life dwelling within us which will exalt us eternally in the presence of our Father and God. If you wish to retain your present identity in the morn of the resurrection, you must so live that the principle of life will be within you as a well of water springing up unto eternal life. JD 7:57 ? p.58, Brigham Young, June 27, 1858.

President Brigham Young has suggested that the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again—must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held. That would be punishment, indeed. John A. Widstoe, Evidences and Reconciliation, 213

Perhaps a limited reincarnation—according to these statements—is compatible with my LDS beliefs. In fact, while I certainly don’t want to repeat a thousand awkward high school moments or the day I fell rock climbing and shattered my leg, being “dis-organized” and trying the whole thing again sounds better than the hell of outer darkness—not that I’m aiming for either of those options. A God who gives the worst of the worst a “do-over” sounds like just the kind of merciful Father who does all in His power to bring about the salvation of his children.

Please notice that Allan, Brigham, and Widtsoe all seem to view reincarnation (if that's even the right word here) negatively (and no one is suggesting that saved souls are pulled out of their resurrected bodies and reincarnated here on earth.)

I've got to wonder if BY meant what was recorded (the problem with adlibbing it as I think he was is that sometimes our ideas don't come out the way we mean them to AND there is the possibility that some nuance he gave that significantly changed the meaning was not recorded properly.)

Whatever Brigham Young meant, John Widtsoe seems to have understood him as suggesting multiple mortal probations.

Edited April 23, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Calm]

If one goes back to the very beginning of the original disorganized states (whether spirit or intelligence...I personally believe it is intelligence that is then clothed with spirit in the first estate and then clothed with a physical form in the second) as it appears suggested here for SOPs, then it is not just multiple mortal probations (second estate) but first estate probation (whatever that might have been) as well. That sounds more like to me not repeating it with the idea of learning more and more through each attempt until one learns enough to accept the Atonement or whatever needed to take the next step (which would be reincarnation---the spirit receiving a new body), but more like erasing everything and starting from scratch, possibly even the identity. MMP are reboots, what Widstoe was saying BY was saying is a complete reformatting (if I've got the technical term right). The individual has received no benefit at all from his previous experience (which is likely a good thing since anything remembered would be 'flavoured' by his rebellion of God and thus likely influence him along the same path).

I do not think one should really label that "multiple mortal probations". Perhaps "multiple existences"....

Edited April 23, 2012 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

If one goes back to the very beginning of disorganized states as it appears suggested here, then it is not just multiple mortal probations (second estate) but first estate probation (whatever that might have been) as well. That sounds more like to me not repeating it with the idea of learning more and more through each attempt until one learns enough to accept the Atonement or whatever needed to take the next step (which would be reincarnation---the spirit receiving a new body), but more like erasing everything and starting from scratch, possibly even the identity.

I do not think one should really label that "multiple mortal probations". Perhaps "multiple existences"....

I think you're right.

Brigham said "I do not say that they will be annihilated; but they will be disorganized, and will be as though they never had been, while we will live and retain our identity, and contend against those principle which tend to death or dissolution. I am after life; I want to preserve my identity, so that you can see Brigham in the eternal worlds just as you see him now. I want to see that eternal principle of life dwelling within us which will exalt us eternally in the presence of our Father and God. If you wish to retain your present identity in the morn of the resurrection, you must so live that the principle of life will be within you as a well of water springing up unto eternal life."

So he did seem to be talking about a complete loss of identity.

Edited April 23, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Calm]

and no one is suggesting that saved souls are pulled out of their resurrected bodies and reincarnated here on earth

There is an idea associated with BY's Adam God speculation (that no one seems to be able to agree on what exactly was meant, including BY ) that Adam and Eve were resurrected, immortal beings who then were chosen to come to earth to start the human race for this earth's mortal existence. That is what I was referring to as the closest thing that BY taught to reincarnation that I've seen....but it is of course not reincarnation whether it was Adam's spirit getting 'reclothed' in a physical adult body or his immortal, resurrected body somehow being able to become corruptible again through the Fall.

See here for some quotes and discussion: http://thepierianspring.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/early-understandings-of-adam-and-eve/

[inquiringmind]

There is an idea associated with BY's Adam God speculation (that no one seems to be able to agree on what exactly was meant, including BY ) that Adam and Eve were resurrected, immortal beings who then were chosen to come to earth to start the human race for this earth's mortal existence. That is what I was referring to as the closest thing that BY taught to reincarnation that I've seen....but it is of course not reincarnation whether it was Adam's spirit getting 'reclothed' in a physical adult body or his immortal, resurrected body somehow being able to become corruptible again through the Fall.

See here for some quotes and discussion: http://thepierianspr...f-adam-and-eve/

I already asked Log about the Adam/God thing, and I found this link he posted very interesting.

I thought Adam/God had been officially declared a false doctrine, and that only Mormon Fundamentalists unaffiliated with Salt Lake City still believed it.

Was I misinformed?

Yes and no. Certain interpretations of the so-called Adam-God teachings have been unambiguously declared false - but the denouncement leaves untouched the problem of understanding what Brigham meant.

There is a perfectly orthodox way to understand Brigham, for example, and Elden Watson has compiled a nice essay which does exactly that.

Part of what I found interesting was this.

Now, if the name Adam means "first father," then that name is certainly applicable to God, our Heavenly Father, because he was the father of the physical bodies of Adam and Eve, and the one who placed them in the garden of Eden. He was in that sense, the first father of everyone who has ever received a physical body on this earth. Brigham Young believed that one of the names of our Heavenly Father is "Adam." Recognition of this simple fact will resolve the large majority of the difficulties people encounter in some of Brigham Young's discourses on the subject...

The Eugene England Letter

In October of 1982 a letter was made public which had been written on February 19, 1981 by Bruce R. McConkie in response to some questions which had been asked him by Eugene England. In this response Br. McConkie told Brother England that Brigham Young had apparently taught that Adam [Jr.] was God, but that he was simply wrong. When this letter was printed and distributed by an anti-Mormon group, we went to Br. McConkie and told him that we had been teaching differently than him, and we did not want to be teaching anything that was incorrect. We told Br. McConkie that if we were wrong, we wanted to know, and we would quit teaching it. After considerable discussion Br. McConkie told us to keep teaching what we had been teaching, because it was he that was wrong. He said if he had known of our views, he never would have said what he did in his letter to Eugene England, and we had his permission to tell anyone we wanted that Br. McConkie had said he was wrong in saying that Brigham Young had taught that Adam was God.

Edited April 23, 2012 by inquiringmind