Multiple Mortal Probations? No Permanent Terrestrial Kingdom?

[Log]

So are you saying that devil really wanted to save everyone, but God didn't?

No, I'm really saying I love being in a church which gives me room to breathe, to think for myself, to believe without compulsion.

[inquiringmind]

No, I'm really saying I love being in a church which gives me room to breathe, to think for myself, to believe without compulsion.

But what do you think regarding Moses 4 (and what point were you trying to make about Lucifer)?

[Log]

Oh, that.

What I think, briefly, is this - Lucifer genuinely thought he had a better way. If he were to atone for all, and universalize the atonement, then all of us brothers and sisters could come back and live together for eternities, as we had been before then. I mean, look out at the crowd; which of these, your brothers and your sisters, would you like to see lost? No, he says, I will plead for them all, and I will bring them all back from death and hell, that they may dwell with us eternally, that none of our family shall be lost. They will obtain bodies, and knowledge of good and evil by their experiences, and I will cleanse them. Therefore, put your name upon me, he says to Father, that I may have power to do this.

The problem with this proposal is that we are here in part to develop integrity, to become willingly unyielding in obedience to the laws of Life, sufficient to be as God is, that we may do as He does, and be honored as He is by creation, that we may have power as He does, bearing His name. We must be demonstrably perfect in all things we choose, that we may warrant the faith of those under our stewardships. Lucifer's plan obviated that aspect of the purpose for this mortal probation. So you get a bunch of spoiled rotten children, perhaps, who know little of self control, self restraint, forgiveness, compromise, and all the rest which must characterize the inhabitants of an eternal society wherein all dwell in all and all know all, and thus is all eternity rife with strife and bickering or outright wars among eternal beings, and everyone is miserable together - certainly they can't be Gods, because who would obey such creatures? Or maybe you have all your children suffer through hell and be purified thereby and from thence they get redeemed whenever their hearts are straitened enough, again through the merits of the Messiah. That's a couple of options that occurred to me.

In either case, men would no longer have to answer for their choices in mortality, which would be a destruction of their agency.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Log

[Alan]

Personally, I have always had a belief in re-incarnation of some kind. Multiple Mortal Probations is a reasonable variation on that general theme and I am comfortable with it.

I had an experience, many years ago, which has led me to believe I have had a mortal life before this one.

I would however, point out that this is not a comforting thought for me. The idea of living again as a child somewhere fills me with horror. So if by being faithful here I can avoid that scenario, all well and good.

One further point; I believe that the whole thing is voluntary. We can decide to stop these mortalities whenever we like but have to accept our lot as a result.

And another point: I also believe there was another category in the pre-existence. There were spirits who were perfectly happy living with God and did not want a mortal probation. These still exist as spirits with God until they change their minds, or not, as the case may be.

[inquiringmind]

Personally, I have always had a belief in re-incarnation of some kind. Multiple Mortal Probations is a reasonable variation on that general theme and I am comfortable with it.

I had an experience, many years ago, which has led me to believe I have had a mortal life before this one.

I would however, point out that this is not a comforting thought for me. The idea of living again as a child somewhere fills me with horror. So if by being faithful here I can avoid that scenario, all well and good.

One further point; I believe that the whole thing is voluntary. We can decide to stop these mortalities whenever we like but have to accept our lot as a result.

And another point: I also believe there was another category in the pre-existence. There were spirits who were perfectly happy living with God and did not want a mortal probation. These still exist as spirits with God until they change their minds, or not, as the case may be.

And how would you understand king Benjamin's words in Mosiah 2:32-39?

He's speaking of those who "have known and been taught" the words of the prophets and the commandments of God, he excludes only little children, and he says that if they go against what they've been taught and die unrepentant their "final doom is never ending torment."

Does "final doom" leave room for future probations?

Does "never ending torment" leave room for future salvation?

[Alan]

And how would you understand king Benjamin's words in Mosiah 2:32-39?

He's speaking of those who "have known and been taught" the words of the prophets and the commandments of God, he excludes only little children, and he says that if they go against what they've been taught and die unrepentant their "final doom is never ending torment."

Does "final doom" leave room for future probations?

Does "never ending torment" leave room for future salvation?

Yes, I believe it does.

[inquiringmind]

Yes, I believe it does.

If you can see that, I'd like to see it too.

Can you explain how it does?

[inquiringmind]

What I think, briefly, is this - Lucifer genuinely thought he had a better way. If he were to atone for all, and universalize the atonement, then all of us brothers and sisters could come back and live together for eternities, as we had been before then. I mean, look out at the crowd; which of these, your brothers and your sisters, would you like to see lost? No, he says, I will plead for them all, and I will bring them all back from death and hell, that they may dwell with us eternally, that none of our family shall be lost. They will obtain bodies, and knowledge of good and evil by their experiences, and I will cleanse them. Therefore, put your name upon me, he says to Father, that I may have power to do this.

It sounds like you believe that the road to hell is literally paved with good intentions, and the devil (at least initially) wasn't really that bad a guy.

Is that really what you're saying?

Or maybe you have all your children suffer through hell and be purified thereby and from thence they get redeemed whenever their hearts are straitened enough, again through the merits of the Messiah.

And you're saying that was the devil's plan?

How would that be different from multiple mortal probations?

Edited April 20, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

The devil (at least initially) wasn't really that bad a guy.

Is that really what you're saying?

Yes, that is what I am saying. What changed? He felt offended / betrayed at not being selected either to be the Messiah, or, depending on how you read Abraham, Adam, and lost faith in the Father, like so many anti- or ex-Mormons will do over historical issues or whatnot, and, like them, began to work against the Father as fervently as he had supported him in the beginning, and thus became Satan.

He feels we betrayed him by not following him; he sought our good in the beginning according to his understanding.

And you're saying that was the devil's plan?

How would that be different from multiple mortal probations?

Those were just a couple ideas I came up with when I was pondering how the purpose of God may best be fulfilled via a probationary period wherein all are redeemed and exalted without the need for repentance. Clearly, one probation is not multiple probations, so maybe I'm not understanding your question.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Log

[inquiringmind]

Those were just a couple ideas I came up with when I was pondering how the purpose of God may best be fulfilled via a probationary period wherein all are redeemed and exalted without the need for repentance. Clearly, one probation is not multiple probations, so maybe I'm not understanding your question.

You suggest that the devil's plan was to save all God's children, purifying the stubborn and rebellious in hell, and thence bringing them to repentance and salvation through the merits of the Messiah.

Wouldn't that be the purpose of multiple mortal probations?

Do you believe the idea of multiple mortal probations is Satanic?

[Log]

You suggest that the devil's plan was to save all God's children, purifying the stubborn and rebellious in hell...

No, purifying them all through hell, and, when straitened enough to be suitable eternal citizens, redeemed by the power of the Atonement, and no, I'm not saying that was necessarily the method the Devil proposed. As I thought I had clearly said, that was just one idea I came up with when pondering the question of how one might plausibly redeem all mankind without requiring obedience and sacrifice in mortality.

Wouldn't that be the purpose of multiple mortal probations?

People or plans that have common objectives do not mean the people or plans are identical to each other.

Do you believe the idea of multiple mortal probations is Satanic?

I don't believe that the idea is Satanic, and that's simply because I don't have any affirmative reason to believe it is Satanic. I like some aspects of the idea, and it may have the benefit of solving a problem or two that I've had issues with, but on the other hand, it does seem to fly in the face of certain readings of the scriptures.

I honestly don't have a position on whether it is true or not.

[inquiringmind]

I like some aspects of the idea, and it may have the benefit of solving a problem or two that I've had issues with

It's an interesting topic.

What are some of the problems you think it might solve?

Edited April 21, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

Adam-God, for one.

[inquiringmind]

Adam-God, for one.

I thought Adam/God had been officially declared a false doctrine, and that only Mormon Fundamentalists unaffiliated with Salt Lake City still believed it.

Was I misinformed?

Edited April 21, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Log]

I thought Adam/God had been officially declared a false doctrine.

Yes and no. Certain interpretations of the so-called Adam-God teachings have been unambiguously declared false - but the denouncement leaves untouched the problem of understanding what Brigham meant.

There is a perfectly orthodox way to understand Brigham, for example, and Elden Watson has compiled a nice essay which does exactly that.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Log

[inquiringmind]

There is a perfectly orthodox way to understand Brigham; for example, and Elden Watson has compiled a nice essay which does exactly that.

I've often wondered if the Adam Sr/Adam Jr interpretation might be what Brigham was really saying, and if it might be acceptable speculation today.

Thank you.

Edited April 21, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Alan]

I wonder if D&C130:19 can add anything to this discussion.

"And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his dilligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."

My question here is does "another" refer to another person or another life (or perhaps both)? It is traditionally interpreted as referring to the person but suppose this is a mistake. Changes the whole meaning and opens up interesting possibilities.

Just a thought.

[Log]

Good point. Contextually, though, the traditional reading appears the more likely one.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Log

[ERayR]

Has anybody considered what multiple mortal probations would mean to the atonement. Multiple mortal probations is incompatible with the atonement IMNSHO.

[Log]

Has anybody considered what multiple mortal probations would mean to the atonement. Multiple mortal probations is incompatible with the atonement IMNSHO.

Well, don't leave us hanging - spell it out!

[ERayR]

Well, don't leave us hanging - spell it out!

If one is allowed multiple probations until he/she gets it right then an atonement is unnecessary. You merely work it out for yourself. On the other hand if the atonement has any affect then multiple probations are unnecessary because Christ has atoned for and forgiven the shortcomings which then become no longer a problem.

Multiple probations is a works only doctrine that feeds right into reincarnation and a denial of the efficacy of the atonement.

[Log]

Welp, I'll put that thought into a comment on that post and see if the author cares to respond.

[inquiringmind]

If one is allowed multiple probations until he/she gets it right then an atonement is unnecessary. You merely work it out for yourself. On the other hand if the atonement has any affect then multiple probations are unnecessary because Christ has atoned for and forgiven the shortcomings which then become no longer a problem.

Multiple probations is a works only doctrine that feeds right into reincarnation and a denial of the efficacy of the atonement.

So if you get it right after 30, or 50, or 70 years, you don't really need the atonement?

Edited April 21, 2012 by inquiringmind

[mercyngrace]

So if you get it right after 30, or 50, or 70 years, you don't really need the atonement?

Exactly. You can never "get it right" without the atonement because the length of your probation is not the determining factor.

[ERayR]

So if you get it right after 30, or 50, or 70 years, you don't really need the atonement?

That is not what I posted. What I said is that IF multiple mortal probations is correct then that says that after some number of mortal probations you will get it right thus eliminating the need for the atonement.

I DO NOT prescribe to that concept. I do not think that numerous probations are needed or desirable. We get one mortal probation and if we are sincere and repent of our sins the atonement of Jesus Christ becomes sufficient of exaltation.