Single Women, Marriage And Pre-Adult Limbo (Logic Exersize)

[selek1]

Would that be considered doctrine, policy or tradition?

By definition, tradition. So?

By the by, the explanation as offered omits the idea that a number of women catch the man they want more by being chased than by chasing.

[Messenger]

Ah, more personal insults. I can't imagine why you have trouble with women.

Mark, that video went viral on facebook over a year ago and the dancer (I don't know if he is gay or not) was supposedly invited on stage to dance with Beyonce. It was something of a human interest story that caught national attention hence the video was super easy to find on youtube.

If you really want to know how my mind works, just ask and I'll tell you.

In fact, here's a freebie:

I like long walks on the beach, thunderstorms, and gardening. My favorite colors are rich, dark, blues, greens, and purples, and I find pity-parties and fellows with chips on their shoulders to be a real turn-off.

Oops, I certainly didn't mean to offend. Just playing along. Still, I do thank you. Its been fun!

Edited March 18, 2012 by Messenger

[volgadon]

Well... The Gay Mormon men could marry that other Gay Mormon Men and the Gay Mormon Women could marry the other Gay Mormon Women.

That way everybody could be happy?

Again, I'm not sure how that explains why more LDS men aren't marrying LDS women and why more LDS women don't get married to LDS men.

[Messenger]

By definition, tradition. So?

By the by, the explanation as offered omits the idea that a number of women catch the man they want more by being chased than by chasing.

Perhaps by definition, the definition itself should be changed. Afterall, if all the traditionalist are "fished out" perhaps its time to change to farming instead of hunting.

[mercyngrace]

Oops, I certainly didn't mean to offend. Just playing along. Still, I do thank you. Its been fun!

Not offended But thanks for playing...

I admit I've been having fun with your thread because it was transparently started in reaction to the Single Men thread. The fact is, I agree with you that men get fussed at disproportionately in the church for not being married.

The fact is that in LDS culture, a single woman is viewed as a tragedy and a single man is viewed as a commitment-phobe, jerk, or closet gay.

I've had close male friends who were asked point blank why they weren't married by intrusive ward members implying that something was wrong with these guys. It's not cool, it's judgmental, and it's nobody's business.

Starting a reactionary thread and adding a huge signature line implying that women on the board are bashing men about marital state.... well, that's also uncool.

And I for one, think you are better than that.

[volgadon]

Would that be considered doctrine, policy or tradition?

Tradition, certainly. Rather venerable tradition at that. As a general rule, I think it a very good tradition. There are always exceptions, of course, so flexibility is important.

[Mormonme]

Mercyngrace,

I would love to compare your Favorites list to mine!

Please... I want your favorites list too! (Just watched it again and still laughing)

Mormonme,

Keep up with the topic, dude. I don't group my friends by gender or sexual preference. I'm an equal opportunity friend. (Just don't dance in front of me in a leotard...)

I could never compete. I don't own a leotard and I'd have to stop exercising - for about 10 years to get in that great a shape. LOL

[selek1]

Perhaps by definition, the definition itself should be changed. Afterall, if all the traditionalist are "fished out" perhaps its time to change to farming instead of hunting.

Actually, the definition is perfectly sound.

Whether or not the tradition itself needs to be changed is debatable.

First and foremost, it is far from proven that the traditionalist view is "fished out",

Second, it has yet to be demonstrated that the tradition is actually holding anyone back from pursuing a non-traditional solution.

[Messenger]

Not offended But thanks for playing...

I admit I've been having fun with your thread because it was transparently started in reaction to the Single Men thread. The fact is, I agree with you that men get fussed at disproportionately in the church for not being married.

The fact is that in LDS culture, a single woman is viewed as a tragedy and a single man is viewed as a commitment-phobe, jerk, or closet gay.

I've had close male friends who were asked point blank why they weren't married by intrusive ward members implying that something was wrong with these guys. It's not cool, it's judgmental, and it's nobody's business.

Starting a reactionary thread and adding a huge signature line implying that women on the board are bashing men about marital state.... well, that's also uncool.

And I for one, think you are better than that.

Hahaha! Oh but I love to hold up a mirror to a person, or the public,! I do like to role play, and it usually has a purpose behind it. I also have no problem holding the mirror up to myself. but really? I was uncool! ok now that is a joke! Maybe that's my problem! I joke way too much! I do like to throw levers and push buttons. Oh I had sooo much fun with the MODS today! but they wouldn't play! except for the one that pounced on me for having my text size too large in my new signature! LOL - Oh I couldn't stop laughing on that one!

[volgadon]

Hahaha! Oh but I love to hold up a mirror to a person, or the public,!

It helps if you hold the right side towards the person.

[Mormonme]

Again, I'm not sure how that explains why more LDS men aren't marrying LDS women and why more LDS women don't get married to LDS men.

Well... If you wanted to discriminate against all the gays you should have just said so in the first place. LOL

[volgadon]

Well... If you wanted to discriminate against all the gays you should have just said so in the first place. LOL

So, if the church were to radically change its stance on gay marriage, how would more LDS men be marrying more LDS women and vice-versa? This isn't discrimination, but logic. Your proposed solution has little to do with the question at hand.

[Messenger]

It helps if you hold the right side towards the person.

You mean its not the shiny side? I've been doing it wrong the whole time?

[volgadon]

You mean its not the shiny side? I've been doing it wrong the whole time?

Oh, shiny, does yours have gold gilt on the back?

[Messenger]

So, if the church were to radically change its stance on gay marriage, how would more LDS men be marrying more LDS women and vice-versa? This isn't discrimination, but logic. Your proposed solution has little to do with the question at hand.

I would agree with you on that. But at the same time, I would also say there are many single men that are just tired of the stereotypes; I would be one of them. If I was gay, I would be hooked up with a guy and call it good. But, I am not, and the thought repulses me. But at the same time, stereotypes also repulse me. So, in the end, I just do my thing, and let everyone else freak out. And then I hold the mirror up and do the freak dance once in a while too!

Deep breath... Perhaps we all have prejudices of some sort. But honestly, and speaking from my core, What's Christian about it? Its not doctrine at all. And if a tradition isn't working, in my opinion, its time to pitch it. I gave a lesson in the High Priest group a few months ago about tradition vs doctrine. One of the former church policies was that people should only take the sacrament with their right hand. We all did a search of the current doctrine sources and couldn't find it anywhere. One member said, we have to tell people they are doing it wrong! My response was.. "Really, when?" His reply was, "In sacrament!" My response was, "Really, right there in sacrament when we are supposed to be thinking of the savior and you would point out that he was doing it wrong?" It clicked.

[Messenger]

Oh, shiny, does yours have gold gilt on the back?

Nope, mine is dark grey. But I do have some rose colored glasses for you if you think that will help? I never wear them, they were my ex-wifes! Stir Stir Stir She always wore them when looking in the mirror.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Messenger

[Mormonme]

So, if the church were to radically change its stance on gay marriage, how would more LDS men be marrying more LDS women and vice-versa? This isn't discrimination, but logic. Your proposed solution has little to do with the question at hand.

The original question I responded to was: "why not talk about why PEOPLE aren't getting married?" (Quote directly from the original post)

Are you saying that homosexuals are not people?

The original post said nothing about LDS Men Marrying LDS Women. It said "PEOPLE" - In Capitals.

For someone opposed to the institutional homophobia within the Mormon Church this is a great question. And the answer is... (for all the homosexuals) - because the church won't let them get married.

[Messenger]

The original question I responded to was: "why not talk about why PEOPLE aren't getting married?" (Quote directly from the original post)

Are you saying that homosexuals are not people?

The original post said nothing about LDS Men Marrying LDS Women. It said "PEOPLE" - In Capitals.

For someone opposed to the institutional homophobia within the Mormon Church this is a great question. And the answer is... (for all the homosexuals) - because the church won't let them get married.

Jumping in here ....

I'm going to go out on a limb here .... me, being single, and heterosexual, and also being active in every way in the church, I don't feel at odds with our doctrine at all. I am perfectly fine with being celibate and being in the church because I love the doctrine and its truth. It's more important to me than being sexually active (but that's just me) . I certainly think there is room for celibate homosexuals. Especially for those that love the guidance that comes from the spirit. But I would say for them to be happy, they would have to recognize or understand and certainly come to the knowledge that its probably their body that is homosexual, but not their spirit. How a person would come to this knowledge would be like anything else, through prayer. I have ADHD and many of the things I do are not because of my spirit, but my body. So I can relate on that level. And I don't have a problem with them as long as they don't try to start changing our doctrine of marriage. I don't feel the need to change it, I believe in it 100%. But they wont be happy in the church if they don't believe and know that the family is the core doctrine of the church.

[Mormonme]

Jumping in here ....

I'm going to go out on a limb here .... me, being single, and heterosexual, and also being active in every way in the church, I don't feel at odds with our doctrine at all. I am perfectly fine with being celibate and being in the church because I love the doctrine and its truth. It's more important to me than being sexually active (but that's just me) . I certainly think there is room for celibate homosexuals. Especially for those that love the guidance that comes from the spirit. But I would say for them to be happy, they would have to recognize or understand and certainly come to the knowledge that its probably their body that is homosexual, but not their spirit. How a person would come to this knowledge would be like anything else, through prayer. I have ADHD and many of the things I do are not because of my spirit, but my body. So I can relate on that level. And I don't have a problem with them as long as they don't try to start changing our doctrine of marriage. I don't feel the need to change it, I believe in it 100%. But they wont be happy in the church if they don't believe and know that the family is the core doctrine of the church.

As I was saying... Institutional homophobia. If you're heterosexual you can get married and have as much sex as you like. If you're homosexual, you can't get married and you have to stay celibate your entire life or we'll ex-communicate you and you'll be damned to hell for all eternity.

racebaiting removed, Mormonme has left the building.

[Messenger]

As I was saying... Institutional homophobia. If you're heterosexual you can get married and have as much sex as you like. If you're homosexual, you can't get married and you have to stay celibate your entire life or we'll ex-communicate you and you'll be damned to hell for all eternity.

removed

Thank you ... I think! LOL

Actually I'm pretty much sure that I cant get married. My ADHD is so bad, that relationships are impossible, that's been confirmed to me through prayer. I don't shake my fist and say, "That's not fair", This is God's gospel, not mine. I don't have a problem with gay people in the church as long as they don't act on it. But I think you have to believe, or know, that the family is best if made up of a man and woman. I do. So the real trick is can a gay person know this? I would love for a gay person who is 100% active in the church to chime in.

I do have a lot of compassion for anybody that struggles with being different. When I was growing up, if I would fall short of everyone else's expectations, (due to my un-diagnosed ADHD) my mother would say, "do what you can". I love the gospel so much that I'm OK with it.

As for what other people think.... In the end, its between God and You. I just know I don't like being accused of something I am not. Perhaps the trick is knowing who you really are?

[followerofemmanuel]

The fact is that in LDS culture, a single woman is viewed as a tragedy and a single man is viewed as a commitment-phobe, jerk, or closet gay.

I was curious, why that is. I'm not married, 37 female, not getting younger (its not like I'm ugly or anything either...lol) but I am ok with my singleness and I am trusting in God to bring someone in my life if He wills. That said, I am trying to do my part, Christian dating websites etc but I have a hard time finding someone I am equally yoked with. There are a lot of people who say they are "christian" however its sometimes hard to tell based on the fruit in their life.

Anyways, I use my singleness to serve more freely, to volunteer, spend time with friends, family and serving in my church. I will be a foster parent in a month since I don't have any of my own children and I have love to give.

In this (ongoing) season of singleness I still have joy and peace in my life.. I shared this with a Lds missionary who inquired about my "status" and I kinda felt that vibe you were talking about, "a single woman is viewed as a tragedy". I mentioned that yes, I really hope to get married but if that does not happen I will take comfort in what Paul wrote. The missionary kindly and softly stated, "oh that Paul really got it wrong sometimes". I should have asked her what she meant but I did not have time to get into a huge discussion. So if anyone agrees with her please share why...thanks.

I mentioned what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7:9

¹ Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” ² But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. ³ The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. ⁴ The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. ⁵ Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. ⁶ I say this as a concession, not as a command. ⁷ I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

⁸ Now to the unmarried^[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. ⁹ But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. ¹⁰ To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ¹¹ But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

[Messenger]

I mentioned what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7:9

¹ Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” ² But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. ³ The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. ⁴ The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. ⁵ Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. ⁶ I say this as a concession, not as a command. ⁷ I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

⁸ Now to the unmarried^[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. ⁹ But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. ¹⁰ To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ¹¹ But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Wow, why didn't I know that scripture before?

Edited March 18, 2012 by Messenger

[mercyngrace]

FOE,

In LDS culture and belief, families are patterned after the family of God. Marrying and parenting are among the highest aspirations as they allow us to become partners in creation and permit us to better understand our God whose primary role is "Abba" and whose unity in spite of distinction is echoed when twain become one flesh.

That said, the wise among us can learn these things regardless of whether they have children or marry in this life.

Because LDS culture emphasizes the role of men in pursuing romantic relationships, the unmarried woman is sometimes seen as having missed an opportunity. This is only slightly less demeaning than how unmarried LDS men are sometimes viewed, which is as willfully and selfishly opting not to marry. Both views are caricatures and fail to take individual circumstances into account. People are rarely that simple.

[Nemesis]

As I was saying... Institutional homophobia. If you're heterosexual you can get married and have as much sex as you like. If you're homosexual, you can't get married and you have to stay celibate your entire life or we'll ex-communicate you and you'll be damned to hell for all eternity.

racebaiting removed, Mormonme has left the building.

I have no patience for trolls.

Nemesis

[followerofemmanuel]

FOE,

In LDS culture and belief, families are patterned after the family of God. Marrying and parenting are among the highest aspirations as they allow us to become partners in creation and permit us to better understand our God whose primary role is "Abba" and whose unity in spite of distinction is echoed when twain become one flesh.

That said, the wise among us can learn these things regardless of whether they have children or marry in this life.

Because LDS culture emphasizes the role of men in pursuing romantic relationships, the unmarried woman is sometimes seen as having missed an opportunity. This is only slightly less demeaning than how unmarried LDS men are sometimes viewed, which is as willfully and selfishly opting not to marry. Both views are caricatures and fail to take individual circumstances into account. People are rarely that simple.

It is great to say the church values family and I appreciate that as do I. It can be hard to find that someone...and I am not about to just hook up and marry someone for the sake of marrying It is important to me to find someone who shares my beliefs and values and also lives them out. I can't imagine my situation is unique among other single believers.

Thanks Mercy for your explanation. So, does the LDS church take the position that Paul is wrong as the Missionary suggested or was it just one person's understanding?

Edited March 18, 2012 by followerofemmanuel