The Battle For Gay Marriages In The Uk

[Sky]

Just curious why there is all this discussion about UK legalizing gay marriage when there are something like 5 states that have gay marriage issues on the ballot in the US including Washington and Maine where gay marrriage is now the law in those states. Possibly New Jersey will have gay marriage on the ballot if governor Christi has his way. Yet not a peep out of the Mormon church. Where are all the phone banks coming out of Utah and call for money and time from the members? Where are the satilite broadcasts to train the members to fight against the rights of gays to marry? Where is the political activism? Is the church only interested in California following their dogma? Doesn't the church want the entire world to follow their teachings on gay marriage?

Sure, the Church would like the entire world to heed its teachings regarding marriage. But I doubt that we will see the Church get involved in other places to the same extent that it did in California. It is as much a matter of practicality as anything else. I thought that would make you happy! About the most I can see happening is a letter being read over the pulpit in Sacrament meetings.

The Church’s position is clear enough. I don’t think the Church is interested in engaging in prolonged and bruising political battles everywhere in the world. Also, there are more members in California, and therefore, the Church has more resources and influence there than in other parts of the world. Plus, the Church has paid a heavy price for going against the Hollywood elite.

Something else to keep in mind is that the Church probably would like to do something to stem the common misperception that it hates homosexuals. I don’t know this for a fact, though. This is just speculation on my part.

[Sky]

Oh yeah isn't that typical of you Jeff. You like to accuse me of being anti Mormon and saying things against the church. You are the same guy that I have asked repeatedly for a CFR where I have said anything against the church or its leaders. I may disagree with the churches stance on gay marriage, but I certainly have never spoken badly against the church.

You have over 1200 posts to find ONE instance where I have said anything bad against the church or about its leaders YET after repeated requests for a CFR you whimper in the corner and are no where to be found. You have yet to apologize for saying these falsehoods about me and you have yet to come up with any proof for your remarks. Jeff, you are a guy who has no honesty and no morals. And I have plenty of proof of that. A person with morals does not break the commandments by bearing false witness against others. And I am not the only one. You seem to consistently want to personally attack others with false accusations. When they also ask for CFR's you hide like a little kid not willing to apologize for your falsehoods. Personally I don't see how the moderators let you get away with out answering these regular unsupported CFR's. I thought it was one of the rules of this board.

I could be wrong, but I thought that Jeff K. was referring to anti-Mormons generally, and not pointing to you specifically.

[KevinG]

I cannot see the LDS Church getting as involved in England's politics as they were in California for a couple of reasons.

The population of LDS in California is much higher (as a percent and in raw numbers) than it is in England. The last time we had a significant population of Saints in England we shipped them to the US.

The backlash against the church for the voluntary actions of its membership and the in kind donations to the Prop 8 campaign was huge. There is no point in giving help where it is not wanted - even if you agree with a movement in principle.

We have said our piece regarding same sex marriage (as a government sanctioned institution) and it is pretty clear what our doctrines and practices are.

[KevinG]

Back when I was growing up in the Mormon church, there was never a doubt those passages were reffering to the Catholic church. My appologies, I've obviously not kept up with the PC updates now you're all best friends.

PC updates? That was cynical.

As others have pointed out our doctrines do not identify a particular religion as encompassing the great and abiminable church. They never did. General Authorities were censured over teaching this false notion. It seems you were taught out of the first unauthorized edition of Mormon Doctrine by McConkie and never attended Sunday School where we learned the GAC was comprised of those who fought against the Lamb of God. Your teachers and parents failed you.

[KevinG]

In my 20 years of living in London i've never once personally experienced any form of homophobia. I've found it to be the most welcoming and accepting city/society in the World. I can't see this changing for the sake of a minorities religious beliefs.

You have a lot more to worry about from Islamic immigrants than the Mormons. At least with us you only face political opposition to same sex marriage and not a legal system that seeks to execute you.

I am pleased to find out the culture you are a part of is welcoming to you. I have a dear childhood friend who lives in the UK and is a part of the gay community in London. He seems very at home there. We manage to respect and love each other despite our differences in opinion. I don't preach against his lifes choices and he doesn't hate me for being Mormon.

Edited March 13, 2012 by KevinG

[wenglund]

Insipid quote according to scholar Wade Englund: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Lame deflective straw man.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jskains]

OK, I'll rephrase... To me personally, who views TBOM as a work of fiction in the early 1800's it is blatantly obvious.

This topic is really hot in the UK news today. The traditionally right wing papers (Like the Daily Mail) are backing the Catholic stance while the more liberal papers (Like the Guardian) are showing strong support for Gay marriage. The Best article I've seen so far is this one: Renamed Ben and Jerry’s flavour backs equal marriage in the UK - I always loved their Ice Cream!

Humorous considering B&J's Ice Cream is one of the most unhealthy.

JMS

[wenglund]

Does that also apply to who is a Christian and who isn't?

Not that your question is relevant, but yes, I have argued that for decades.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jskains]

I'm intrigued to know... Is the LDS Church actively fighting against Gay Marriage here in the UK?

They are in Australia - Ambassadors for the Family and in the US - 8: The Mormon Proposition

What about the UK?

Are you an instigator? You do know that garbage you proudly posted is one of the worst in political rhetoric dripping in bigotry and lies, right?

JMS

[KevinG]

Are you an instigator? You do know that garbage you proudly posted is one of the worst in political rhetoric dripping in bigotry and lies, right?

JMS

Its hard to justify a good "hate" without stoking the fires with propaganda. Those who point fingers and project hatred on others are very good at stoking it themselves.

Edited March 13, 2012 by KevinG

[zerinus]

BRM, IIRC, GAC, RCC.

I'm sorry, I'm not up on the Mormon lingo, you lost me at BRM?

Whatever your point, as an outsider it is blatantly obvious these passages are refering to the Catholic church in the early 1800's. The fact it's no longer politically correct within the Mormon church to recognise this is both delusion and denialism.

Back to topic, I hope for the Mormon Church's own sake it stays away from this issue in the UK as getting involved will only further diminish it's reputation in a country that has no place for religious bigotry and homophobic preaching.

The Church has a mission and obligation to stand up for what is right, regardless of how unpopular it may be to do so.

[Mormonme]

You have a lot more to worry about from Islamic immigrants than the Mormons. At least with us you only face political opposition to same sex marriage and not a legal system that seeks to execute you.

I am pleased to find out the culture you are a part of is welcoming to you. I have a dear childhood friend who lives in the UK and is a part of the gay community in London. He seems very at home there. We manage to respect and love each other despite our differences in opinion. I don't preach against his lifes choices and he doesn't hate me for being Mormon.

Yes, those of us living in the civilised world are all very lucky not to be living in the 3rd world. I don't hate anyone and I certainly don't hate anyone for being a Mormon. I just know from personal experience that the religions preaching on Homosexuality is fundamentally wrong and wish it would stay out of issues of the state that effect my civil right to equality. Surely it's abundance of wealth and resources are better spent helping those truly suffering in said 3rd world?

[zerinus]

OK, I'll rephrase... To me personally, who views TBOM as a work of fiction in the early 1800's it is blatantly obvious.

This topic is really hot in the UK news today. The traditionally right wing papers (Like the Daily Mail) are backing the Catholic stance while the more liberal papers (Like the Guardian) are showing strong support for Gay marriage. The Best article I've seen so far is this one: Renamed Ben and Jerry’s flavour backs equal marriage in the UK - I always loved their Ice Cream!

I live in the UK, and I can confirm that it has been all over the news, especially since the Archbishop of Westminster wrote a letter to all Catholic congregations urging them to do all they can to oppose the proposal. See here, here, here, here, and here.

[Jeff K.]

Yes, those of us living in the civilised world are all very lucky not to be living in the 3rd world. I don't hate anyone and I certainly don't hate anyone for being a Mormon. I just know from personal experience that the religions preaching on Homosexuality is fundamentally wrong and wish it would stay out of issues of the state that effect my civil right to equality. Surely it's abundance of wealth and resources are better spent helping those truly suffering in said 3rd world?

Your perspective is noted. But understand that moral relativism makes the worst and most evil equal the the best and most good. You say "from your perspective" but then your perspective on a morally relativistic basis is no more valid than that of a fundamentalist Taliban who would kill gay men and women. You would have to embrace that perspective as being equal to yours.

As to your somewhat limited perspective on the third world. I have lived in "the third world" extensively, Mexico, Peru, Argentina. There are things I would do differently than they would, but I have also found living in the third world to be "civilized". they aren't barbaric and often think more deeply upon the meaning of things because they have significantly less than you. I cannot accept the definitions that riches and exploitation define civilization.

As to helping the third world, religion tends to do a much better job more efficiency than governments. Something perhaps you should think upon.

[KevinG]

Yes, those of us living in the civilised world are all very lucky not to be living in the 3rd world. I don't hate anyone and I certainly don't hate anyone for being a Mormon. I just know from personal experience that the religions preaching on Homosexuality is fundamentally wrong and wish it would stay out of issues of the state that effect my civil right to equality. Surely it's abundance of wealth and resources are better spent helping those truly suffering in said 3rd world?

The LDS Church 9and catholic) efforts in civilizing and releiving the third world are not without resources and volunteers. Our humanitarian and educational efforts are quite good from energy generating carousels to famine relief to service missions... http://www.lds.org/service/humanitarian/church?lang=eng

The Prop 8 efforts were relegated to a minor in kind donation from LDS media services, some communications and the volunteer efforts of individual Mormons. The total amount of support and time were miniscule compared to our religious and humanitarian missions.

Religions preaching on sexuality of any kind is fundamentally right as part of their mission and call and as a First Amendment right here in the States.

To your point: the debate about how much weight that should carry in establishing law or community standards is ongoing. That is where the legitimate debate belongs but restricting the rights of either side to speak or associate freely is not the right answer.

We have had many discussions about these rights vis a vis homosexuality and the legal definition of marriage. My position has always been that attaching financial benefit and legal rights to marriage was a mistake in the first place. Let the church define marriage how they want and have society support individuals as they need regardless of religion or belief.

[Calm]

BRM, IIRC, GAC, RCC.

I'm sorry, I'm not up on the Mormon lingo, you lost me at BRM?

Whatever your point, as an outsider it is blatantly obvious these passages are refering to the Catholic church in the early 1800's.

BRM=Bruce R McConkie, IIRC=if I recall correctly, GAC=great and abominable church, RCC=Roman Catholic Church

One example of it not matching the RCC...there are only two churches, one being the GAC. There has never been a time when the RCC has been one of two Christian faiths, let alone only one of two churches existing on the earth. Considering the dominance of Protestantism in JS's environment, this does not sound like something he would even assume. If you believe that this was a perception of the Catholic Church, please demonstrate this (CFR means "call for reference" and is required to be answered by sources besides your opinion once issued)

Another example of it not matching the RCC....there has never been a time that the RCC could be considered to have "dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people." If you disagree, CFR.

If there were people who assumed that it meant the Catholic faith, all that it means is they did not read the text sufficiently but let their personal bias interpret it.....as you have done it would seem.

[wenglund]

Yes, those of us living in the civilised world are all very lucky not to be living in the 3rd world. I don't hate anyone and I certainly don't hate anyone for being a Mormon. I just know from personal experience that the religions preaching on Homosexuality is fundamentally wrong and wish it would stay out of issues of the state that effect my civil right to equality. Surely it's abundance of wealth and resources are better spent helping those truly suffering in said 3rd world?

No, the Churches are not trying deny any civil rights or reasonable equality. Rather, they are working to prevent governments from inanely promoting what the churches view as perversion. They are working towards what makes most sense for all parties concerned, and this in contrast to those on the other side who are looking out for their selfish and destructive interests.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 13, 2012 by wenglund

[Calm]

those of us living in the civilised world are all very lucky not to be living in the 3rd world.

The "3rd world" is not part of civilization.....hmmmm....

[Mormonme]

I live in the UK, and I can confirm that it has been all over the news, especially since the Archbishop of Westminster wrote a letter to all Catholic congregations urging them to do all they can to oppose the proposal. See here, here, here, here, and here.

The Catholic church took a very similar stance in Spain back in 2005 where it has a much larger congregation/stronghold than here in the UK. The Spanish government chose to ignore them and legalised Gay marriage - with the will of the people. I look forward to the day the Government in the UK does the same.

[Jeff K.]

What is amazing is how religious preaching regarding fidelity, and chastity has done more to stop AIDS than all the condoms sent by the UN. Religion changes behavior, tends to make men and women better individuals, much more so than government bureaucracies.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Sky]

What is amazing is how religious preaching regarding fidelity, and chastity has done more to stop AIDS than all the condoms sent by the UN.

What is your source for this?

[Mormonme]

The "3rd world" is not part of civilization.....hmmmm....

OK, got me. I was just commenting on how lucky we are not to live in dire poverty or where being Gay is punished by death. I was thinking more along the lines of the poorest parts of Africa and a number of places in the middle East. (Jeff K - I've also lived in Argentina - I'm sure by any standard it doesn't fit in the 3rd World Category?)

[Jeff K.]

What is your source for this?

A quick link is http://www.guardian..../sexandreligion

siteresources.worldbank.org/.../ImpactofReligiousOrganizationsinHI

The Impact of Religious Organizations

in Promoting HIV/AIDS prevention

Revised version of paper presented at “Challenges for the Church: AIDS, Malaria & TB” (Conference Title), Christian Connections for International Health, Arlington, Va., May 25-26 2001. (Available in French)

Edward C. Green, Ph.D.

Consultant, Synergy Project

and Harvard School of Public Health

e-mail: egreendc@aol.com; egreen@hsph.harvard.edu

During the early years of the HIV/AIDS pandemic, many people who worked in HIV/AIDS prevention thought of religious leaders and organizations as naturally antagonistic to what they were trying to accomplish. In many minds, the stereotype of a religious leader was that of a conservative moralist who disapproved of any form of sexual behavior outside of marriage (especially male-male sex), as well as what was seen as the "only solution" to HIV infection, i.e., condoms.

Today we have convincing examples of so-called faith-based initiatives in which involvement of religious leaders and organizations in HIV/AIDS prevention has had major impact. (The role of religious organizations in care and support of those with HIV is well-recognized and not the issue here). This paper focuses on developing countries.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jeff K.

[Jeff K.]

OK, got me. I was just commenting on how lucky we are not to live in dire poverty or where being Gay is punished by death. I was thinking more along the lines of the poorest parts of Africa and a number of places in the middle East. (Jeff K - I've also lived in Argentina - I'm sure by any standard it doesn't fit in the 3rd World Category?)

Third world isn't necessarily a question of dire poverty either. You really should get out more. Third world is generally known as an artificial construct from the Cold War that had more to do with political alignment than it did with economic or cultural position.

[zerinus]

The Catholic church took a very similar stance in Spain back in 2005 where it has a much larger congregation/stronghold than here in the UK. The Spanish government chose to ignore them and legalised Gay marriage - with the will of the people. I look forward to the day the Government in the UK does the same.

Mosiah 29:

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.