stemelbow Posted February 27, 2012 Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) Verum posted this post in Wade's http://www.mormondia...estored-gospel/ thread.For me, to be more specific about the more "obscure" elements of church history, we would have to answer the questions below in order to determine whether they are relevant in relation to the "restoring" of the gospel...1) Does the possibility that Joseph Smith dishonestly and wrongfully coerced women to marry him undermine Joseph's role as the prophet that God trusted for the restoration of the gospel?2) More broadly, does the possibility that Joseph Smith fabricated stories of his visions or revelations undermine the work of the restored gospel?3) Does the possibility that the Book of Mormon was not a divinely translated book with historical origins undermine Joseph's role as the prophet of the restoration?4) Does the possibility that Joseph's successors were preaching false doctrines and lying undermine the work of the restoration and the claim to an unbroken line of priesthood authority and continued revelation?To me, the answer to all three question is yes. Validating the evidences of these claims are significant enough to deserve thorough analysis and scrutiny in order to more clearly determine whether Joseph was truly the prophet of the restoration and whether the restoration has continued through his successors. The Lord has clearly cautioned us against false prophets and even taught us how to recognize them "by their fruits".Of course, the spirit is required in addition to study, but one cannot just ignore the history because they are content with the church's current state.I thought a response would be alright in its own thread since it appears to be off-topic-ish in Wade's view. I won't bother his thread.in light of religious truth claims I'm not sure the possibility that the claims could be wrong necessarily undermines the truth claims. I can see people weighing the claims against the historical record, or whatever record can be used as evidence, and making a judgment call as to whether these possibilities are likely, plausible, or whatever, but even then its a rather subjective determination to decide whether the judgment call itself undermines the religion, per se. And again, the judgment call itself can be rendered to opposing views by any number of people.Any single person can view the visionary claims of Joseph Smith with skepticism, if one wants. There are plenty of efforts in print that provide arguments to support such a position if one wants. the same, of course, could be said of nearly any religious claim. Were Paul's accounts of his own vision in the NT consistent? Did they differ? Moreso or lessso than Joseph's? The possibility that Paul made up his own visionary experience doesn't in my mind necessarily undermine the work of the NT.Indeed, possibliity doesn't prove the critic position of Mormonism is proven false. Edited February 27, 2012 by stemelbow
Storm Rider Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 This is the kind of drivel that immediately makes my eyes roll and I immediately shut down, assume that I am talking with someone that is unworthy, or too closed minded, of the topic and either change the topic or move on. I just don't have time in my life to deal with them and they are not interested in conversation. It is better to just lock them in the room and let them vent while I go have some fun with my family or friends.
ebeddoulos Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Any single person can view the visionary claims of Joseph Smith with skepticism, if one wants. There are plenty of efforts in print that provide arguments to support such a position if one wants. the same, of course, could be said of nearly any religious claim. Were Paul's accounts of his own vision in the NT consistent? Did they differ? Moreso or lessso than Joseph's? The possibility that Paul made up his own visionary experience doesn't in my mind necessarily undermine the work of the NT.Some years back I did the following study of this subject. There are three versions of Paul's First Vision on the Road to Damascus:Acts 9 - Initial telling of the story.Acts 22 - This is the story Paul told to the people who had just been beating him but only after being rescued by Roman soldiery.Acts 26 - The story is recorded for a third time in Paul’s audience before King Agrippa.The following is the comparison of those three versions along with the supporting verses:No time is specified in Acts 9 but in Acts 22:6 and Acts 26:13 it is given as noon or midday.“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:” (Acts 9:3)“And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.” (Acts 22:6)“At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.” (Acts 26:13)In Acts 9:3, Acts 26:13 it was simply a “light from heaven” while Acts 22:6 it emphasizes a “great light”.“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:” (Acts 9:3)“And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.” (Acts 22:6)“At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.” (Acts 26:13)In Acts 9 and 22 the light shined around only Paul while in Acts 26 it also shine around Paul’s traveling companions.“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:” (Acts 9:3)“And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.” (Acts 22:6)“At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.” (Acts 26:13)Acts 22 and Acts 26 states that those travelling with Paul saw the light. Acts 9 does not record if Paul’s companions saw the light.“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:” (Acts 9:3)“And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.” (Acts 22:9)“At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.” (Acts 26:13)In Acts 9 and 22 only Paul fell to the ground but in Acts 26 those travelling with Paul also fell to the earth with Paul.“And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” (Acts 9:4)“And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” (Acts 22:7)“And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” (Acts 26:14)Only in Acts 26 is Jesus recorded as speaking in the Hebrew tongue.“And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” (Acts 9:4-5)“And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” (Acts 22:7)“And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” (Acts 26:14)In Acts 9 and Acts 26 Jesus quotes from the 5th century b.c. Greek play “Agamemnon” by Aeschylus, “kick against the pricks” but in Acts 22 Jesus fails to do so.“And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” (Acts 9:4-5)“And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” (Acts 22:7)“And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” (Acts 26:14)In Acts 9 and Acts 26 the heavenly visitor identified himself as simply “Jesus” but in Acts 22 the heavenly visitor identified himself more precisely as “Jesus of Nazareth.”“And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” (Acts 9:5)“And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.” (Acts 22: 8 )“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.” (Acts 26:15)Only in Acts 9 is Paul recorded as trembling and being astonished.“And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.” (Acts 9:6)“And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.” (Acts 22:10)“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;” (Acts 26:15-16)Note: Acts 9:6 contains a sentence which does not exist in any Greek text:“And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?”The sentence is found in ancient Latin, Georgian, Slavonic, and Ethiopic translations.In Acts 9, Paul asks, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” while in Acts 22, Paul asks, “What shall I do, Lord?” but in Acts 26 Christ responds without Paul having to ask.“And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.” (Acts 9:6)“And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.” (Acts 22:10)“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;” (Acts 26:15-16)In Acts 9 and Acts 22 Paul is specifically told to go to Damascus to receive instruction but in Acts 26 Paul receives instruction apparently without having to go to Damascus.“And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.” (Acts 9:6)“And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.” (Acts 22:10)“But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” (Acts 26:16-18)In Acts 9 those travelling with Paul heard a voice but in Acts 22 they did not. Acts 26 is silent on the issue.“And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.” (Acts 9:7)“And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.” (Acts 22:9)Note: Both Acts 9 and Acts 22 use a form of the Greek word akouo which is the Greek word meaning to hear. Some versions translate akouo in Acts 22:9 as understand.While Acts 9 and Acts 22 reference Paul being blind and being led into Damascus, Acts 26 fails to mention it.“And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.” (Acts 9: 8 )“And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.” (Acts 22:11)
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