To All Critics: Is This Circumstantial Evidence That The Bom Is True?

[inquiringmind]

Is this statement factually correct?

The preceding examples of writing on ancient metal plates or scrolls share some interesting characteristics. With the exception of the Roman plates which were meant to be used as public documents, they mostly contained scriptural, historical, or ceremonial writing; they were buried or hidden; and they were extremely significant to those who wrote or possessed them. In addition, they all come from cultures that originated in the ancient Middle East or Mediterranean and none of them were known when the Book of Mormon was published or at any time during Joseph Smith’s life.life. The importance of these latter shared commonalities cannot be overstated. If Joseph was making up his story of an ancient record on golden plates, he had no historical precedent upon which to draw; it sounded like no more than a tall tale.

http://www.bmaf.org/node/421

Is it true that "no historical precedent" for writing on metal plates existed at the time the BOM was published?

Edited February 24, 2012 by inquiringmind

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

No. Pretty sure metal plates were specifically mentioned even in the apocrypha.

Edited February 24, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[inquiringmind]

No. Pretty sure metal plates were specifically mentioned even in the apocrypha.

I don't believe they're mentioned in the Bible.

What apocryphal books would they be mentioned in?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I'd have to check - I think 1 Maccabees, perhaps. Or, if not the Apocrypha, then Josephus.

It's just not a great apologetic argument. Doesn't mean people didn't mock Joseph for it, but it's for the same reasons they mock finding metal plates pointed out by an Angel to this day, even when it's well-known that ancient writings were buried.

[smac97]

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/insights/?vol=22&num=8&id=318&print

The Second Conference of Abbot Serenus 21, written about a.d. 426 by the Christian scholar John Cassian, sheds light on statements made in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses about Cain, who slew his brother Abel.

An Old World contemporary of Mormon and Moroni, Cassian wrote that "the sons of Seth who were the sons of God saw the daughters of those who were born of the line of Cain, and inflamed with the desire for their beauty took to themselves from them wives who taught their husbands the wickedness of their fathers, and at once led them astray from their innate holiness and the single-mindedness of their forefathers."1

In the Book of Mormon, Cain and his descendants are said to have covenanted with Satan to organize the first of the secret combinations that later flourished among the Jaredites and the Nephites (see Helaman 6:27; Ether 8:15). The most well known of those groups was called "Gadianton's robbers and murderers" (Helaman 6:18). The devil was considered to be the founder of such "secret combinations of murder" (see 2 Nephi 9:9; 26:22). According to Helaman 8:28, the "secret band" among the Nephites was authored by "Gadianton and the evil one who seeketh to destroy the souls of men." The Book of Moses confirms the devil's role and provides more details about the oaths and secrecy associated with Cain's family (see Moses 5:29-31, 49-52).

Cassian continues his account by providing additional material not found in the Bible but confirmed in the Book of Mormon:

And so, as ancient traditions tell us, Ham the son of Noah, who had been taught these superstitions and wicked and profane arts, as he knew that he could not possibly bring any handbook on these subjects into the ark, into which he was to enter with his good father and holy brothers, inscribed these nefarious arts and profane devices on plates of various metals which could not be destroyed by the flood of waters, and on hard rocks, and when the flood was over he hunted for them with the same inquisitiveness with which he had concealed them, and so transmitted to his descendants a seedbed of profanity and perpetual sin. In this way then that common notion, according to which men believe that angels delivered to men enchantments and diverse arts, is in truth fulfilled. From these sons of Seth then and daughters of Cain, as we have said, there were born still worse children who became mighty, hunters, violent and most fierce men who were termed giants by reason of the size of their bodies and their cruelty and wickedness.2

The keeping of records on metal plates is a major theme in the Book of Mormon, but equally significant is Cassian's assertion that Ham had learned the "wicked and profane arts" of Cain and had inscribed them on metallic plates that he hid before the flood and later retrieved. The story is paralleled by the account of the Gadianton robbers, who "concealed their secret plans in the earth" and later retrieved them (see Helaman 11:10, 26).

[volgadon]

The 12 Tablets of Roman Law were also pretty famous in the 19th century.

[Storm Rider]

Yes, but to assume that this was known to a farmboy in New York state is assuming a great deal. In fact, the fact that metal plates were used for such a purpose was simply not common knowledge in the Americas or even Europe in that day.

[Bill Hamblin]

Ex 28:36, 39:30, Lev. 8:9

1 Macc. 8:22, 14:18, 14:27

[Mike Reed]

In fact, the fact that metal plates were used for such a purpose was simply not common knowledge in the Americas or even Europe in that day.

Not true. Contrary to what Mormon apologists/scholars have supposed, knowledge about the ancient practice was widely dispersed in Joseph Smith's day, being mentioned in various sources including newspapers, magazines, novels, encyclopedias, dictionaries, religious periodicals, biblical commentaries, school textbooks, etc.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Mike Reed

[inquiringmind]

Not true. Contrary to what Mormon apologists/scholars have supposed, knowledge about the ancient practice was widely dispersed in Joseph Smith's day, being mentioned in various sources including newspapers, magazines, novels, encyclopedias, dictionaries, religious periodicals, biblical commentaries, school textbooks, etc.

Can you cite any evidence that the knowledge that ancient people wrote on metal plates was "widely dispersed in Joseph's day," and actually mentioned in "newspapers, magazines, novels, encyclopedias, dictionaries, religious periodicals, biblical commentaries," and ""school textbooks" (as you say here)?

Edited February 24, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Chris Smith]

Mike has written a paper on the topic with extensive and detailed references. Is that paper slated to be published anywhere, Mike?

[Mike Reed]

Can you cite any evidence that the knowledge that ancient people wrote on metal plates was "widely dispersed in Joseph's day," and actually mentioned in "newspapers, magazines, novels, encyclopedias, dictionaries, religious periodicals, biblical commentaries," and ""school textbooks" (as you say here)?

Yes. I can. But I am not going to lay all of my material on this forum. You can start here though.

I presented papers on this topic at the Sunstone Symposium and Richard Bushman's Gold Plates Seminar last year. I have mountains and mountains of material that was left out of both of these papers. I hope to get back to that project soon, so I can finally submit it for publication.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Mike Reed

[Mike Reed]

Mike has written a paper on the topic with extensive and detailed references. Is that paper slated to be published anywhere, Mike?

Hi Chris. I had a journal interested. Actually two journals expressed interest, but I had to choose one. Last semester was too overwhelming for me to complete this paper, unfortunately. Hopefully I'll have better luck finding time this semester. After my book is published, then this paper, then my Christianization of Fm paper, then another I am writing (on Lehi's dream and 19th century esoteric thought). Not to mention the three 25-30 page papers I am expected to write this semester for my courses. Ugh!

Edited February 24, 2012 by Mike Reed

[Storm Rider]

Mike, I appreciate the example of a text book talking about it as an example that it was at least available to those who studied from the given text, but I am curious to see it discussed as common knowledge, how often was it brought up in public discussion so that the idea was pervasive throughout society.

As a young man I recall quite clearly the criticism that writing on gold plates was just a fantasy of Smith's. "who wrote on gold plates?" was the oft refrain. Where these critics just ignorant of the knowledge that you find discussed in the early 1800s? If they could be ignorant in the 20th century, is it possible that there were many who were unaware of it in Smith's time?

[Mike Reed]

As a young man I recall quite clearly the criticism that writing on gold plates was just a fantasy of Smith's. "who wrote on gold plates?" was the oft refrain. Where these critics just ignorant of the knowledge that you find discussed in the early 1800s? If they could be ignorant in the 20th century, is it possible that there were many who were unaware of it in Smith's time?

Skeptics indeed rejected Joseph Smith’s “Golden Bible” reports, but this was partly because they associated the claim with his previous treasure seeking activities. Moreover, critics were all the more skeptical since Joseph Smith refused to publicly display the plates. But rejecting Smith’s claim for having gold plates is not the same as denying the ancient practice of inscribing metal records. Few skeptics in Smith's day actually contended against the Gold Plates report on ancient metallurgical and archaeological grounds, and those who did, tended to do so for fairly specific reasons. My paper will go over these reasons in detail.

[Mike Reed]

Unfortunately I've gotta get back to work. G'night all.

Get to sleep Chris, you dang insomniac!