Bulls-Eye For The Book Of Mormon: In Relation To Authorship.

[Jeff K.]

Anti Mormons will use the tool they think best, even if they contradict themselves. I have heard it all.... Joseph Smith did not write it (obviously Francis Bacon did), Joseph Smith was a genius, Joseph Smith was an idiot Savant. I have heard the same anti Mormons use more than one of these characteristics at the same time. Frontier boy writes a huge novel with only the Bible as reference, places geographic elements in their proper place when he knew nothing about them (Lehi's travels), accurately depicts Jewish and Middle Eastern cultural aspects, and provides a serious tome of religious subjects that include the divinity of Christ. All before he was 25 I believe.

Lets see the who can do that today?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Anti Mormons will use the tool they think best, even if they contradict themselves. I have heard it all.... Joseph Smith did not write it (obviously Francis Bacon did), Joseph Smith was a genius, Joseph Smith was an idiot Savant. I have heard the same anti Mormons use more than one of these characteristics at the same time. Frontier boy writes a huge novel with only the Bible as reference, places geographic elements in their proper place when he knew nothing about them (Lehi's travels), accurately depicts Jewish and Middle Eastern cultural aspects, and provides a serious tome of religious subjects that include the divinity of Christ. All before he was 25 I believe.

Lets see the who can do that today?

We call this “throwing spaghetti at the wall”. My wife does this till one sticks to see if it is done.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It is all so confusing. Joseph Smith is portrayed as everywhere from a genius to a moron by those trying to discredit the Book of Mormon. Come on now which is it?

Any port in a storm!

[Jaybear]

It is all so confusing. Joseph Smith is portrayed as everywhere from a genius to a moron by those trying to discredit the Book of Mormon. Come on now which is it?

Who accused Smith of being a moron, and in what context?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Who accused Smith of being a moron, and in what context?

Is this a serious inquiry?

[Jeff K.]

Chuckle, always review the source........

[Jaybear]

Is this a serious inquiry?

I would not ask for a source, if the factual assertion rang true to me.

I have never come accross any modern critic of Smith portraying him as a moron.

Its been my observation that its the apologists who claim he wasn't smart enough to write the book.

Chuckle, always review the source........

What is that supposed to mean?

Edited January 23, 2012 by Jaybear

[altersteve]

Its been my observation that its the apologists who claim he wasn't smart enough to write the book.

But there is no Mormon who will say that he was not intelligent, or that he was some idiot who didn't know anything.

Intelligence, generally speaking, measures how able someone is to understand and comprehend difficult concepts, and it can be demonstrated by one's ability to communicate his or her thoughts and explain abstract ideas very simply and coherently. Basically, it measures one's ability to learn things. It's an inborn knowledge of how things work in the world. By this definition, Joseph Smith was clearly very intelligent. I've seen many critics who try to deny this.

And I think he was so intelligent because of the fact that he was a prophet. Anyone who gets to see God or look into heaven, even for just 30 seconds, much less however long Joseph was able to, is probably able to comprehend quite a bit.

Edited January 23, 2012 by altersteve

[Cobalt-70]

I pointed this out in the OP...but could you expand on your interpretation?

I'm just saying that it's not the same phrase. If it's not exactly the same, then you have to make a case why similar phrases like "devil and his angels" (found many times in the Book of Mormon and in the D&C) should not be included in the analysis. "His [the devil's] angels" and "angels of the devil" mean exactly the same thing, just worded differently. "Angels of a devil" has a slightly different nuance that is not shared with either "his angels" and "angels of the devil." Moreover, the technical differences between these three phrases are artifacts of English, and as far as we know, all three of them might be represented exactly the same in "reformed Egyptian."

[Jaybear]

But there is no Mormon who will say that he was not intelligent, or that he was some idiot who didn't know anything.

Intelligence, generally speaking, measures how able someone is to understand and comprehend difficult concepts, and it can be demonstrated by one's ability to communicate his or her thoughts and explain abstract ideas very simply and coherently. Basically, it measures one's ability to learn things. It's an inborn knowledge of how things work in the world. By this definition, Joseph Smith was clearly very intelligent. I've seen many critics who try to deny this.

CFR. Who are these critics, and what did they say?

[KevinG]

CFR. Who are these critics, and what did they say?

Google Joseph Smith Idiot and immerse yourself in the sewer that is anti-mormonism. You will find a roughly 1:2 ratio between those who advocate Joseph as an idiot and those who advocate him as a huckster who was followed by idiots.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I would not ask for a source, if the factual assertion rang true to me.

I have never come accross any modern critic of Smith portraying him as a moron.

Its been my observation that its the apologists who claim he wasn't smart enough to write the book.

You must have a narrow definition of "Critics". Just type in Joseph Smith into your search engine, then in a few years after you have read all the material get back...

[LDSToronto]

To quote Emma Smith…

“Joseph could not write a well worded coherent sentence”

He was forever asking her assistance or others when not translating scripture or receiving revelation. Nice attempt to demean him though….or to make it sound easy

How is this any different than any of us using Google?

H.

[LDSToronto]

The extent of Woodrow Wilson Rawls public schooling was just Junior High but he was mostly home educated by his mother. However, Rawls was a hard worker, traveled extensively and in 1958 he managed to marry well. His wife, Sophie Ann Styczinski, was a budget analyst for the Atomic Energy Commission. Prior to the wedding, Rawls burned five unpublished manuscripts. One of the manuscripts was his first draft of "Where the Red Fern Grows", the most famous of his novels. Sophie insisted that he reprise it. She served as his initial editor for this complete re-write which is basically a biographical account of his youth. In 1961, it was re-edited by the Saturday Evening Post, when it was published as a three-part serial called "The Hounds of Youth". Also in 1961, additional editing was done by Doubleday when they published it in book form bearing its current title. He wrote a second book, "Summer of the Monkees", which was published in 1976. His third book, "Hunters of Cherokee County", was published in 1978. Rawls died in 1984 at age 71.

Frankly, I fail to see much to compare.

Who edited the Book of Mormon?

H.

PS. Emma was pretty smart, too.

Edited January 24, 2012 by LDSToronto

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

How is this any different than any of us using Google?

H.

You are comparing Emma and Google?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Who edited the Book of Mormon?

H.

PS. Emma was pretty smart, too.

Well you are the first to suggest Emma wrote the Book of Mormon...I don't think she was that gifted either. These were young people with limited education. I do not speak of their intelligence, but education.

[LeSellers]

Who edited the Book of Mormon?

It depends on what you mean by "edited".

In the classic sense, no one actually edited the 1829-30 edition. However, Grandin's typesetter, John H. Gilbert, provided punctation and standardized some of the spelling.

In later editions, Joseph Smith did some significant editing. In the 1982 edition, a Church committee did a lot of editing to being the text (that had wandered over the decades) back into conformance with the "Printer's Manuscript" and those edits made by Joseph, especially the 1840 (I believe) edition.

Lehi

[LDSToronto]

Well you are the first to suggest Emma wrote the Book of Mormon...I don't think she was that gifted either. These were young people with limited education. I do not speak of their intelligence, but education.

Huh? I never suggested that Emma wrote the Book of Mormon! I was simply saying that Joseph had a smart wife, just as Rawls had a smart wife.

H.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Huh? I never suggested that Emma wrote the Book of Mormon! I was simply saying that Joseph had a smart wife, just as Rawls had a smart wife.

H.

That was somewhat tongue-in-cheek"...but I was serious about you comparing Emma to a search engine.

[LDSToronto]

That was somewhat tongue-in-cheek"...but I was serious about you comparing Emma to a search engine.

Well, my search engine comparison was a bit tongue-in-cheek as well. I don't beleive that asking for assistance shows diminished intelligence any more than asking Google or Wikipedia indicates lower intelligence.

I'd also point out that I don't think Joseph was unintelligent. In fact, I'd suggest that the only organization that makes attempts to downplay Joseph's intellectual capabilities is the Church.

H.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'd also point out that I don't think Joseph was unintelligent. In fact, I'd suggest that the only organization that makes attempts to downplay Joseph's intellectual capabilities is the Church.

H.

Could you expand on that a little more?

[ebeddoulos]

Who edited the Book of Mormon?

H.

PS. Emma was pretty smart, too.

You really are in way over your head, aren’t you? I would suggest that you purchase or borrow Royal Skousen's ten volume Book of Mormon Critical Text Project. It will become very evident that no one edited the Book of Mormon's original 1830 translated text. The printer, John Gilbert, supplied the vast majority of the punctuation though Oliver Cowdery and Scribe 2 provided an occasional punctuation mark. Mostly, the various scribes self-corrected their own mistakes by inserting a missed word, changing a mis-heard word or crossing out a word on the fly as they were transcribing. But actuall editing, where whole sentences, paragraphs and sometimes chapters are deleted, inserted, substituted and rearranged? It just didn't happen. Let me give you an example of editing using your choice of writer. In Wilson Rawl’s three part serial “The Hounds of Youth”, the conclusion was completely rewritten for the book version so that a red fern was found growing over the graves of the boy’s dogs. This in turn supplied the basis of the new title for the book – “Where the Red Fern Grows”. Shucks, there just isn't anything even remotely close to this in the Book of Mormon. As I said, you are in way over your head.

Edited January 24, 2012 by ebeddoulos

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You really are in way over your head, aren’t you? I would suggest that you purchase or borrow Royal Skousen's ten volume Book of Mormon Critical Text Project. It will become very evident that no one edited the Book of Mormon's original 1830 translated text. The printer, John Gilbert, supplied the vast majority of the punctuation though Oliver Cowdery and Scribe 2 provided an occasional punctuation mark. Mostly, the various scribes self-corrected their own mistakes by inserting a missed word, changing a mis-heard word or crossing out a word on the fly as they were transcribing. But actuall editing, where whole sentences, paragraphs and sometimes chapters are deleted, inserted, substituted and rearranged? It just didn't happen. Let me give you an example of editing using your choice of writer. In Wilson Rawl’s three part serial “The Hounds of Youth”, the conclusion was completely rewritten for the book version so that a red fern was found growing over the graves of the boy’s dogs. This in turn supplied the basis of the new title for the book – “Where the Red Fern Grows”. Shucks, there just isn't anything even remotely close to this in the Book of Mormon. As I said, you are in way over your head.

Back in the 80's I believe there was a printing error in the BoM (something left out about Mary) and then the next printing it was back in...Anti's jumped all over this one. Most of our critics will not dare compare changes in text from one translation to another with the Bible. But there are many out there who do word searches all the time to find out if anything we have ever printed has changed. For some it is an obsession to find such things. They are constantly trying to remove the mote in our eyes while ignoring the beam in their own eyes. It is an odd thing. Some like to say that Joseph was not persecuted...it began in his youth and continues to this day. He gave his life for the BoM in a way. It would be odd that when facing death on the very day of that death he had Hiram or John Taylor read from his "fraud"...not a change. He certainly believed in it; As well as I do.