Mormons Are Obviously The Wrong Kind Of Minority

[Amulek]

Is it the consensus opinion here that the personal beliefs or worldview of a candidate should not be evaluated when deciding that individual's fitness for public office?

Should any professed belief automatically given a pass in politics or public life just because the one who professes it claims it to be a religious belief?

I certainly don’t believe that any particular belief is automatically out of bounds just because it happens to be a religious belief. However, I don’t agree that every religious belief is fair game - just because it happens to be a religious belief - either.

We ought to be tolerant of the religious beliefs of others, but that’s not to say we must adopt some sort of moral relativism - saying nothing matters at all. I would say that, as a general rule, unless a particular religious belief can be shown to have a direct connection to governance, politics, and the political sphere, then it should probably fall outside the sphere of what ought to be scrutinized.

So, for example, if an evangelical Christian professes to be a strict creationist then, due to the public policy implications in play, it is perfectly fair in my opinion to ask him what he thinks follows, if anything, for public policy by adhering to that belief. However, if he happens to subscribe to the religious notion of a ‘priesthood of all believers’ rather than supporting the Papacy, then that’s neither here-nor-there as far as I’m concerned.

If a Buddhist believes in reincarnation - no big deal. But his beliefs about pacifism might be legitimately inquired after because those beliefs have very real national security implications. If a Jew doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah - again, fine by me. But I do think it’s fair to ask if he’s a Zionist. And if a Muslim candidate were running for office, he would likely face the same sort of (legitimate) questions about church-state independence that JFK was asked about.

I could go on, but I think that serves as a pretty good starting point. YMMV.

　

Humans have no control over their race or their sex or, to a great extent, their physical characteristics. They do have control over what they choose to believe, and should be held to account for, and evaluated by, these beliefs when seeking the highest office in the land.

Except, of course, for that small fact that religion is more than a set of beliefs that one happens to agree to adhere to upon reaching maturity. It is also an affective identity which is in considerable measure acquired as part of who one is. So, in that sense and to that extent, it is accidental and immutable in the same way that one’s cultural identity is also accidental and immutable. We don’t make people give those sorts of things up just because they happen to be running for office.

　

Edited January 2, 2012 by Amulek

[Xioneye]

This is so ironic because My sister and half her kids have just left the church because they have come to the conclusion through a study of the JOD articles in which many quotes are given that when the church is no longer persecuted we will be in apostasy. Since we are so "mainstream" now we are obviously in apostasy. This article puts the lie to that.

Send them to me.[deleted by mod as obvious proselytizing referral]

[thesometimesaint]

I normally like to respond to individual posters here. But as Mariner can't at this time I'll say that "As long as it neither breaks my bones nor picks my pocket for them to believe so." is a paraphrase of Thomas Jeffersons claims on religious liberty.

Edited January 2, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Cobalt-70]

"Mormons are obviously the wrong kind of minority," according to Mona Charen of the National Review Online.

http://www.nationalr...ity-mona-charen

So "don’t expect applause for the first Mormon president."

I think someone could have concerns about a person's belief system that could legitimately affect that person's vote without making the person some kind of a bigot. But they have to base your opinion on what the person actually believes, rather than on some prejudiced stereotype of the religion. If, for example, a Mormon candidate believes that men are the supreme authority of the home, or appears to assent to the church's efforts to enact and constitutionalize bans on same sex marriage, then I don't consider a voting choice made on that basis prejudice. It would be the same for any religion. For example, I personally could not vote for anyone who belonged to an Evangelical sect that believed it was okay to murder abortion providers, unless the candidate renounced that teaching of their sect.

I also could imagine an argument on the ground that the candidate might lack critical thinking skills because he believes in some doctrine that seems illogical to non-Mormons. But this is the case for all religions as well. I, for example, would question the education and reasoning skills of any candidate that was a young-earth creationist. But either way, the decision has to be made on the facts, not on a stereotype.

[Tarski]

I would have no problem voting for a Mormon if they supported enough of the political causes I am concerned about. It's possible.

Think how different Hatch is from Reid.

So I could in principle vote for a Mormon. And yet, I am supposedly, by some people's lights, a raving anti-Mormon. Go figure.

[Jeff K.]

Stargazer,

Good answer. What is it then about Warren Jeffs, or people like him, that would disqualify them, in your mind, as good candidates for POTUS?

Could it be, as was the case for the Muslim pilots mentioned above, that given his background, he could not be trusted to make the right (or at least appropriate) decisions when under stress in a crisis?

Is it because, like the pilots, when under stress (as he clearly is now) Jeffs might revert to the comfort and old habits of his religion as Jeffs is doing now (which in Jeff's case seems to be writing revelations)?

A Hindu President wouldn't bother me, and their pantheon of gods is at least as complicated as Scientology in many respects. And yet both they and scientologists operate well in society.

The insinuation that someone's belief system makes them inferior (based on opinion) reflects a certain limitation of rights quality that is disturbing. If you are a Muslim you can't be a pilot? If you are Hindu or Mormon or Scientologist you cannot be a political leader. Where do the restrictions stop? Mormons cannot be scientists or science teachers?

I would presume that one could potentially vilify anyone, for any reason (or claim to have a good reason). Given that so many belief systems operate successfully in the world. It seems both archaic and parochial to limit people's future, based upon who their God is or is not (if any)

[John Larsen]

I could vote for a devout Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or Seventh Day Adventist

over someone who merely goes to church and does not practice their faith.

Aren't you here practicing the same "discrimination" that is implied in the OP? Aren't you suggesting a faith test for who you would vote for? Isn't this also a form of religious discrimination?

I find it ironic that those who are first to cry foul over religious discrimination are more than willing to practice it in reverse.

[Tarski]

Aren't you here practicing the same "discrimination" that is implied in the OP? Aren't you suggesting a faith test for who you would vote for? Isn't this also a form of religious discrimination?

I find it ironic that those who are first to cry foul over religious discrimination are more than willing to practice it in reverse.

Very good point. Anyone who complains that refusal to vote for a Mormon (because they are Mormon) is prejudice should assure us immediately that they would vote for an atheist all else being equal.

[Jeff K.]

I would vote for an atheist if he were the best man or woman for the job. It is about running the country, not teaching me theology.

[bluebell]

Very good point. Anyone who complains that refusal to vote for a Mormon (because they are Mormon) is prejudice should assure us immediately that they would vote for an atheist all else being equal.

I would, if i thought they were the best person for the job.

[thesometimesaint]

A persons religion, or lack there of, isn't a consideration in if I'll vote for them.Tell me what you are going to do to my country, and if I agree you'll get my vote.

[wenglund]

When people fear Mormonism and mormons it is understandable that it would factor into how they vote.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

Wade:

That can be said about any number of religions, and the people who adhere to them.

[Jeff K.]

Yes it can. It is one reason our church doesn't fear other churches. We don't need to seek ways to undermine them. We simply show what we have and let the individual decide.

[thesometimesaint]

JeffK.:

Long time no see.

That has been one of my favorite things about the LDS.

[wenglund]

Wade:

That can be said about any number of religions, and the people who adhere to them.

True. It can also be said about any number of ethnicities, socio-economic strata, political affiliations, etc.

Fear, whether justified or not, whether advantageous or not, can sway how some people vote.

It would be nice if some people weren't so insecure and affraid.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[John Larsen]

True. It can also be said about any number of ethnicities, socio-economic strata, political affiliations, etc.

Fear, whether justified or not, whether advantageous or not, can sway how some people vote.

It would be nice if some people weren't so insecure and affraid.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I wonder why you assume fear. I wouldn't vote for a flat earther, but not because I fear them.

[thesometimesaint]

John Larson:

Why?

Most people in the US live out their lives with little thought about the shape of the earth. You can build your house, drive a car, cook your food and get along quite nicely with a flat earth mentality. I'm not advocating ignorance, but you could live quite nicely till 1903 with the invention of the air plane, and not be concerned that the earth is a slightly pear shaped ball at all.

[Amulek]

Anyone who complains that refusal to vote for a Mormon (because they are Mormon) is prejudice should assure us immediately that they would vote for an atheist all else being equal.

Consider yourself so assured. Choosing not to believe in deity / deities is precisely the sort of personal religious judgment that society ought to tolerate – even though such a belief is one that I happen to be unable to accept personally.

[wenglund]

I wonder why you assume fear.

Fear tends to be at the heart of bigotry.

I wouldn't vote for a flat earther, but not because I fear them.

Why are you assuming I was referring to you?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

Tarski:

I'd have no problem with voting for an Atheist if they had the better ideas about governance. I can truthfully say that about any religion or non religion that there is that I know of.

[Sethbag]

This is so ironic because My sister and half her kids have just left the church because they have come to the conclusion through a study of the JOD articles in which many quotes are given that when the church is no longer persecuted we will be in apostasy. Since we are so "mainstream" now we are obviously in apostasy. This article puts the lie to that.

Of all the reasons to suspect the church might not be true to be found in the JOD, I honestly didn't expect this one. That's awesome.

[Deborah]

Of all the reasons to suspect the church might not be true to be found in the JOD, I honestly didn't expect this one. That's awesome.

I have to admit that's the first time I heard that one too.

[John Larsen]

John Larson:

Why?

Most people in the US live out their lives with little thought about the shape of the earth. You can build your house, drive a car, cook your food and get along quite nicely with a flat earth mentality. I'm not advocating ignorance, but you could live quite nicely till 1903 with the invention of the air plane, and not be concerned that the earth is a slightly pear shaped ball at all.

It is like when you see a cockroach run across your kitchen floor. Even though you only saw one, it is a sure sign that you have an infestation. Ignorance breeds ignorance.

[Jeff K.]

Deborah, on 31 December 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

This is so ironic because My sister and half her kids have just left the church because they have come to the conclusion through a study of the JOD articles in which many quotes are given that when the church is no longer persecuted we will be in apostasy. Since we are so "mainstream" now we are obviously in apostasy. This article puts the lie to that.

Of all the reasons to suspect the church might not be true to be found in the JOD, I honestly didn't expect this one. That's awesome.

Perhaps they hope to make the church "true" again by leaving it and therefore making it persecuted?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Jeff K.